2001 Golf Magazine Rankings ... Sneak Preview

[ForkaB]

Ben

I guessed at the 8 and I also was just guessing where to put them.  Of the 8, I've only played Rye, which I would rank higher than I guessed Golf might.  I made the guess on National based on the fact that Golf Digest rates National #1 in Canada, ahead of Highlands Links, in the "Planet Golf" section of their website.  When I get on "How to be a Millionaire" and they ask me a question about Canadian Golf, I'll be sure to line you up for the "Phone a Friend" lifeline (Even though my grandmother was a member of St. Stephen Golf Club in New Breunswick.)!

Rich

[Ben]

Rich,
I did not mean that as a criticism, more as a "gee I hope not."

I did not even take a shot at the 8, so maybe I should not have put that forward.  I have not played enough of the ones you listed to comment, however I am a huge fan of Cape Breton and believe it to be our best.

[ForkaB]

Ben

I didn't take your comment as a criticism.  Sorry if my post came off that way.  For what it's worth, all my 99.9% second hand knowledge of golf in Canada, including your post, leads me to believe that Cape Breton would be my favorite Canadian course too.

Rich

[Mike @ Kiawah...]

Anything further on where the rest of the US courses rank?  Dying to find out where The Ocean Course sits...  Did it move up or down from the 72nd place it held last ranking...?

[Jeff_Lewis]

here is a flyer:
54 kawana
58 el saler
60 wentworth
71 rye
73 victoria
78 commonwealth
80 mid-ocean
81 royal adelaide

[Jeff_Lewis]

wait! replace rye with ganton...thx

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

The Ocean Course moved up to #65 for the 2001 rankings.

The remaining USA Courses listed by Golf Magazine are ...

#61 Interlachen
#62 Canterbury
#63 Shoal Creek
#64 Wannamoisett
#65 Kiawah Island (Ocean)
#66 Pablo Creek
#67 Yeamans Hall
#68 Long Cove
#69 Pasatiempo
#70 Pete Dye GC
#71 Salem
#72 Baltusrol (Upper)
#73 Plainfield
#74 Blackwolf Run (River)
#75 Olympia Fields (North)
#76 The Dunes
#77 Kittansett
#78 The Creek
#79 Forest Highlands
#80 Oak Tree GC
#81 Hazeltine National
#82 Firestone (South)
#83 Myopia Hunt Club
#84 Crooked Stick
#85 Desert Forest
#86 Sea Island (Seaside)
#87 Yale University
#88 Laurel Valley
#89 Pumpikin Ridge (Witch Hollow)
#90 Jupiter Hills (Hills)
#91 Estancia
#92 Butler National
#93 Piping Rock
#94 Bel Air
#95 Newport
#96 Indianwood (Old)
#97 Stonewall
#98 Troon GC
#99 Bellerive
#100 Pumpkin Ridge (Ghost Creek)

LET THE DEBATE BEGIN ...

[Ward_Peyronnin]

The Dunes( New Buffalo MI) is the first nine hole course to make any of the GOLF rankings. We have talked about this great little course in other posts regarding nine holers and I am glad to see that my impressions of the track were indeed justified.

Reflect on the fact that Mike Keiser now owns three top 100 golf courses(Pacific and Bandon) yet I never hear of/from him. How about an interview Ran?

[Matt_Ward]

Just a quick question -- should nine hole layouts be considered for ranking status? Even ones that are held in high esteem such as The Dunes?

[Mike_Cirba]

Nice to see that "Golf" finally recognizes that Garden City is a superior course to Quaker Ridge.  Truly, it's not even close, although "Golfweek" has known that for some time now.  

[Paul_Daley]

I remain hopeful that the actual listing of Royal Melbourne (Composite Course) at no. 10 in the World rankings, is merely an admin feature at this stage, and not indicative
of where it will finsih when the list is officially released. Matty Ward may have an inkling.

I would rather play RMGC any day over Pebble Beach, Muirfield, Augusta or Oakmont; despite their acknowledged class.

For me, choosing between Royal Melb (either West Course or Composite) and Royal County Down would be like, "where is the nearest coin to toss."

Pebble Beach is obviously a National Institution to US golfers, but everywhere you travel outside the States, so many feel it is good, but over-rated.

I have long felt that Muirfield has traded on its ancestry, and powerful marketing strategy (of non-marketing)to create the allure of something really grand. It is great; the bunkering may be among the best in the British Isles, but again, the course is not in Royal Melb's class.

[Mike @ Kiawah]

Glad we moved up...  Wish we would have moved into the top 100 in the world, but we're moving in the right direction...  Where are #57-60?

[T_MacWood]

I have no problem with a nine hole course making the list, I can't imagine the original 9-hole Prarie Dunes not being included among the great coures in the US. Are we sure The Dunes is not the course in Myrtle Beach.

I'm shocked that Fazio's Victoria National is not included or even Sand Ridge, but yet two less publicized (and I assume less expensive) designs Sea Island and Pablo Creek make the grade. As well as Estancia. What's the story with Pablo Creek? And is it good precident to rip up a classic course like Sea Island, I know it was originaly goofed up by Rees, but it seems a shame to gut an Alison's work.

Rees seems to be very popular.

I'm pleasantly surprised to see Newport.

I'm very surprised to see Bel-Air, Eddie Merins must be a hell of nice guy. Is Kenny Takashawima on this years panel? Mac Davis?

I'm sorry to see St.Louis fall off.

I've never quite understood the support for Butler National.

[Gene Greco]

Paul D.

 There are many of us who live in the states who believe Pebble Beach is overated as well.

[Mike_Cirba]

The Dunes IS the one in Myrtle Beach, and is the best RTJ Sr. course I've seen.  

[Matt_Ward]

FYI:

The Dunes is located in Michigan -- just outside of Michigan and is a new selection for the Golf Mag rankings.

The Dunes Golf & Beach Club is the one located in North Myrtle Beach, SC.

Tom: Can't believe anyone believes Sand Ridge is one of the very best Tom Fazio courses. It's a good course but not in the league with other Fazio gems such as Wade Hampton, Shadow Creek, Estancia and Victoria National. I would even care to say that The Preserve in Carmel, CA is a better overall design by TF.

In the Cleveland area I would also mention that The Country Club (Pepper Pike) is a classic old-styled gem that very few ever mention or play. In my mind, it should deserve attention before Sand Ridge.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wow, Matt...that's a shocker.

I knew that The Dunes in Myrtle was in the last Top 100 ranking in "Golf", and assumed it was the same.  

I've heard the nine-holer in Michigan is very good and very exclusive.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I'm not a proponent of 9-hole courses being located within such rankings. I've never played The Dunes, but I know people who have and they all have great things to say. But 9-hole layouts aren't the complete thing even when they have you play it again from different markers.

I'm also not a proponent of courses that use composite layouts featuring different holes from different nines / sides (i.e. The Country Club, Congressional, Royal Melbourne).

When you start down the path in collecting an "all-star" gathering of holes then anything is possible with other multi-course layouts such as Winged Foot, Oakland Hills, Baltusrol, and even more so with Bethpage. I know a composite layout can be achieved at Ridgewood CC (Paramus, NJ / site of this year's Senior PGA) which could be really demanding, but that is not the normal circumstances of play.

That's just my opinion ... what's your take?

[John_Conley]

I'm guessing the DUNES is in SC, not MI.

[T_MacWood]

Matt
I'm surprised you don't love Sand Ridge, I understand it has some of the flatest tees in Ohio. I've not yet played the course, but I'm still surprised it didn't make the grade - it seems that every high profile Fazio course jumps up the list (I have played Victoria National and I believe it is one of the top 100 courses in the country). For example SR was rated the 16th best course in the USA by the 798 GD panelists - before the traditional points were awarded.

Thanks for the Cleveland recomendation -- speeking of old style gems how do you compare The Country Club to Kirtland, Brookside, Pepper Pike, Congress Lake, Mayfield, Shaker Hts, Sleepy Hollow and Elyria.

The original 9 at Prarie Dunes is not among the top 100 courses in the US?

[BillV]

I am really looking forward to playing Victoria National next month, wish I could get up to Cleveland, but I don't think it's doable.

I have been pretty consistently disappointed with Castle Pines, Black Diamond Ranch (60 in the uSA, pardon me while i spontaneously combust, thank you!), Galloway, The Estancia, even Pine Barrenns at World Woods.  These are good to very good courses, but......it just hasn't been there.  It's a little like a Spielberg movie, just too commercial, too contrived, just not that kind of excellence.

Hell, I even bought his book, don't call me a Fazio basher. I am not.  But I'm not that impressed.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

Since John Conley questioned it, are we sure it's The Dunes in MI that made the list.

On your other question, I completely agree.  Although I love nine-holers and grew up on one, I think by definition it would be hard to rank one against a course where there are 18 solid holes, or some number greater than nine.  It's simple mathematics, and I think just putting a numerical ranking of "8", for instance, on a nine-holer, doesn't compare to an "8" on an eighteen-holer.

I also completely agree regarding composite courses.  The courses that are ranked should be the way the courses are played on a day to day basis, not under some unique tournament conditions.

[John_Conley]

Cool!  I just figured it was the last DUNES in SC.  

I still haven't seen.  I take a subscription to GOLF and didn't get my issue yet.  It wasn't on their website this AM.

Since the thread started with so much info on the GOLF list, I'm wondering if we got full disclosure on the source.

What is Matt's tie?

[Adam_Messix]

I actually think it's neat to see the nine hole Dunes Club being included in a Top 100 courses of the US.  It's a really fun course to play and flexible enough to make it interesting a 2 round sequence.

However, that being said......

The only 9 holer in the US that deserves being considered for such a high honor is Whitinsville in Massachusetts.  I know that it's way, way, way out of the way.  But, it well worth the trip once you get there.  I included it in my only trip to Mass two years ago when I played The Country Club and Kittansett and came away feeling that it is every bit as good as the two bigger name courses.  

Whitinsville uses it's property very well.  8 of the 9 holes are truly awesome  (I'm not particulary fond of the tee shot at the 4th where the hole doglegs in a strange place...but it's not ridiculous) The true standout holes are the 1st, a sweeping par 5 to a very interesting green and the 9th, a cape style driving par 4 with the river on the right and an long second shot to another intersting green.  The best part about Whitinsville is that they seemed to pretty much left the place alone, including leaving the aiming bunkers 100 yards off the tee on the 5th (a feature that seems to be removed on most Ross courses)

I have yet to read the article, but I'm a bit surprised that Royal Worlington hasn't gotten any ink in the World rankings issues (I think Golf World in Britain has ranked it the last two times)

[Scott_Burroughs]

I don't know how Matt got his info beforehand since I believe he's a rater for Golf Digest.  Maybe it's his affiliation with another regional golf pub in NJ?