GOLF magazine top 100

[jim_lewis]

I know that Ted Sturges has an active thread on this subject. I am surprised that it has generated limited response, so, with apologies to Ted, I hope to stir it up a little.

If my memory is correct, some time ago Tom Doak invited specific reactions to GOLF's 1999 rankings. Therefore, I presume he would welcome reaction to the latest list.

I must say that overall I am impressed with both the World and U.S. lists in spite of the fact that I worry about the potential for conflict of interests among many of the panelists. Obviously I have not played all of the courses, but I have played enough of them to pick at the list a little.

Here is my 2 cents worth.

Courses underrated A LOT:
Wannamoisett
Salem

Courses underrated A LITTLE:
Pinehurst #2 (I rate only PVGC above #2)
Fishers Island
Spyglass
Colonial
Pete Dye GC
Royal Melbourne
Carnoustie

Courses Overrated A LOT:
Wade Hampton
Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow)

Courses Overrated A LITTLE:
Augusta National
TPC Sawgrass
Honors
Upper Cascades
Turnberry
Muirfield Village
Black Diamond

Most glaring omissions:
Cuscowilla
Holston Hills
Galloway National
Forest Creek

Worst drop off:
St.Louis CC

Best Drop off:
Colleton River (Dye)

I only mention courses that I have played.

Bottom line....pretty good list.

[Hart_Huffines]

Hope you are doing well Jim.  I agree with  your thoughts, especially on Pinehurst.  The more I get around to top courses, the stronger it becomes.

I think Turnberry is worthy of its place ahead of Carnoustie.  I can't beleive Kingsbarns is rated so highly.  The scenery is incredible but it has several holes that would be average even in America.  I didn't care for the replica of the "postage stamp" either.  It will be interesting to see the Dunhill played there later.

My group really enjoyed Troon and Muirfield.  I'm looking forward to convinceing Ran they are better than he'll admit.

[Ran Morrissett]

Hart, Slow down! I'm the only guy on the DG who'll admit to actually liking Royal Troon -everyone else makes it sound like chop liver. Of course, Muirfield is a different story and it will take a lot of cleansing ales on your behalf to convince me of its world top 10 position.

[Adam_Messix]

Jim--

I am pretty much in agreement with your assessment of the rankings...with the exception of Wade Hampton (I'm from Cashiers so please understand the partiality) and Pete Dye GC.  

Ran--

I may have missed this in the past, but what do you not like about Muirfield?  I have heard you mention in previous threads that you thought the course was overrated.  The only thing I can think of is that the course is not the visual stunner that many seaside or near seaside courses are.  "Nothing but an auld water meadie" may be appropriate here.  

[aclayman]

Jim Lewis- Could you tell us how you have so much insight into the way that the panelists vote? Do you edit the list?

[jim_lewis]

Hart:

You must be working too hard. Take off sometime and come down to Pinehurst.

I have no problem with Turnberry being ranked in the top thirty in the World. I just can't put it ahead of Carnoustie, Prairie Dunes, Kingston Heath, Fishers Island, or Wannamoisett.  I am notas impressed by spectacular settings like Turnberry, Pebble Beach, and Bandon Dunes as most observers. That's probably why I like courses like Carnoustie, #2, and Oakmont.
Turnberry dropped a little in my mind when they "Americanized" it with irrigation and cute mowing patterns.

I think Ran is hopelessly mistaken about Muirfield.  I guess he would like it more if he could actually see the North Sea. But, he is young. There is still time for him to grow wiser!

[jim_lewis]

Aclayman:

I have no idea how the GOLF panelist vote other than the information contained in the magazine article. Nor, did I intend to suggest that I do.

Many have expressed concern about the objectivity of the GOLF panel because it contains so many architects and course owners. That suggests the POTENTIAL for conflicts of interests. However, I see or know of no evidence of such conflicts, and I am rather impressed with the lists. I doubt if anyone agrees with it completely, including the panelists themselves.

Perhaps Ran or Tom Doak can address questions about the GOLF voting process.

[Hart_Huffines]

Ran,

Didn't mean to get ahead of myself, I thought I remembered differently about Troon.
Anyway, I'm ready to buy and I hope to see you soon.

[ForkaB]

Jim

You and Adam and Hart are right about Muirfield and Ran is wrong.  It is a superb course and a great overall golfing experience that should not be missed by anybody with an interest in the history of golf.

You are also right about Turnberry.  If they just let the course grow in more naturally nobody would be questioning its place in the top20-30 in the world.  I have a special place in my heart for the course as it was the first links I ever played on my first trip to Scotland in 1978.  I can still remember standing on the first tee, looking out at a hole which is probably the least immediately appealing on the course and going WOW!  It was a life changing experience.

[JSJ]

Calling Cuscowilla the "most glaring omission" from the top 100 is ridiculous.This cites obsession with that course continues to amaze me. I play the top 100 courses in Columbus Ohio on a frequent basis and Cuscowilla is not in the same league.

[Ran Morrissett]

Adam,

A world top 10 course should have an abundance of world class golf holes, the logic being that such holes make the course world class. Hey, call me smart  

To my way of thinking, MuirFIELD has two world class holes - the 13th and 17th and that's just not enough to be world top 10.

All of MuirFIELD's remaining holes range from being very good (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10,11,12,14,15, and 16) to great (9,18), but still very good to great holes doesn't translate to a world top 10 spot for me. Top 30 sure, but not top 10.

Cheers,

[Gimpy]

Was lucky enough to accompany Hart on his Scotland trip last week.  I would agree that Kingsbarns is overrated. If courses were judged on views alone, Kingsbarns would rate high, but not as high as North Berwick (West).  I would also agree that Troon and Turnberry were fantastic to play and somewhat underrated at times.  As for Muirfield, it was awesome.  The course was a treat to play, walk and view.  I was lucky enough to have the recently crowned Wales Woman AM Open winner as my caddie and she really added to the experience.  It was a treat to have someone who knew how to play  the course and manage my game accordingly. I can only imagine how high Muirfield might rate if it had the views of a Kingsbarns, Berwick or Troon.  (Hart, sorry for stealing the caddie on the first tee, she was also cute!)

[ForkaB]

Ran

If you add my great and world class holes at Muirfield  (1, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 11) to your 4 you come up with a pretty impressive golf course.  Of course I might be wrong!

[Bob_Huntley]

I agree with Ran on Muirfield, wonderful club ambience, peculiar playing formats on a regular basis and  some less than stunning par threes.

Troon can best be summed up as golf backwards,flog.

[kilfara]

Jim - why Wannamoisett? This remains for me the one course more than any other which GCAers tend to love but which I found relatively uninteresting (in a Baltusrolian sense) when I played it. It's been a while, so I don't remember too many particulars, but why is it so far up there for you?

Cheers,
Darren

[Ran Morrissett]

Rich,

Great response. In effect, you reckon MuirFIELD to have more world class holes than I do and thus our difference of opinion, which is fine.

Too many times, the response would have nothing to do about the specific holes but rather about having a beautiful day, or the course to oneself, or the great lunch or their caddy or one's playing companions. Such folks are listing their top 100 experiences as opposed to courses.

Bob,

Can you believe that people put MuirFIELD in the same class as your beloved Cypress Point?!

[Mike @ Kiawah]

My only questions is, and don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's a fantastic course, but how did Pacific Dunes get in the top 100 courses when ballots needed to be completed by April 11th and the course didn't officially open until July 1st?

[jim_lewis]

Darren:

Many here are better qualified than I to respond to you question regarding Wannamoisett, as I have played it only once. I will tell you that based on that single experience it is second only to Pinehurst #2 among the 50 or so Ross courses I have played, and that includes Seminole.

For starters the routing on a small site is absolutely brilliant. The course is very compact, but I never had a feeling of being cramped. I did not play it prior to the tree removal project, but I suspect that improved the course a lot.  Variety is the single word that best describes Wannamoisett. The par fours vary greatly in length and favor tee shots of every shape. The fairway and greenside bunkering presents multiple decisons on each hole. Then there are the greens, perhaps Ross's best, and each seems to be perfectly matched to the shot required from the fairway. The only thing wrong with that course is the scorecard. If it is a par 69, I'll eat my hat! The player who shoots 69 will leave feeling that he has broken par.

Please go play it again.

[Gimpy]

Ouch, one comment about the cute caddie and you get zinged.  Ok, how can you leave number 4 and 10 off the list.  No. 4 with a back left pin bringing in the collection area and bunker is a brute.  Front left or right isn't much better as it brings in bunkers for both.  Back right is no bargin as the entire green then slopes away from any long shot.  No. 10 is a brute at 473 into the wind as a Par 4!  Deep bunkers right, heavy rough right off the tee are the start.  Miss the fairway and you get the pleasure of negotiating the cross bunkers.  Regardless you are left with a long second or third.  Great hole from start to finish.  I'll give you 2, 3, 12 and 14 are nothing special but we didn't have a par on the par 3 No. 16.  With the right set-up, No. 2 could give you fits if forced to challenge the left wall off the tee and into the green.  

[dick_cesana]

Living in R.I I have a little advantage in knowing the feeling of the people who play our great courses. Wannamoisett is a great course that belongs in the top 50. Not many people want to play it every day because it just beats you up.Newport is a great venue and a wonderfull experienceto play it  for the first time but top 100 we don't think so.There are 2 or 3 courses as  good if  not better. They never had the Open, US amature or Presidents Eisenhower and JFK ,the greatest swinger Newport has ever seen.

[Tom_Doak]

For Mike @ Kiawah:

I posted a more detailed explanation of the GOLF Magazine system about three weeks back.  Basically, though, 8-10 of the panelists have to have seen the course for it to be ranked.  

Eleven holes at Pacific Dunes were playable last September, and I played all eighteen for the first time in January of this year.  Seven GOLF panelists played the course at my invitation, although I only played with two of them.

So that's how it got rated -- I made sure some of the panelists got to see it in time.  This could backfire, of course.  The last course to make the list so early was ... The Ocean Course at Kiawah, which made it in November 1991, I believe.  I believe part of its trouble in the rankings now, is that some panelists believe it was over-hyped then.

Jim Lewis:

I know a lot of people who think Wannamoissett is a great golf course, but you're the only one who's said it should be in the top 30 in the world.  I've only been there once, and there are large gaps in my memory of the back nine.  Either I'm aging fast, or it wasn't THAT good.

To Everyone Who Worries About Conflict of Interest:  Please read the last two paragraphs of the top 100 story.  None of the architects get to vote on their own work.  The only potential conflict is that we can vote against other architects' work, which helps to counteract some of the hype factor.

[ForkaB]

It's interesting that Ran, Gimpy and I all have different favorites at Muirfield.  (I don't find a lot to like about 13, even given the fact that it has the largest "false front" outside of Anna Nicole Smith--I've got a great picture somewhere in my attic, OOPS archives, of my ball on the very front of that "green" taken at ground level.  The only "horizon" green I know of which is also a horizon green once you are on it!)

Is it perhaps THE definition of a great course that EVERY hole has its proponents (and even a few detractors)?  There are more than one of the "top ten" courses that certainly don't meet this criterion.

[Dan King]

Rich Goodale writes about Muirfield:
It is a superb course and a great overall golfing experience that should not be missed by anybody with an interest in the history of golf.

I'm curious about this statement.  I could easily come up with at least a dozen courses in Scotland with more historical significance. What am I missing about Muirfield's history?

I enjoyed Muirfield, but it isn't the best course in East Lothian and I'm not 100% sure I'd say it is the best course in Gullane. (I only played Muirfield once, and would really like to play it another time or two before comparing it to Gullane.) But for historical significance I'd say it is no more than the third or fourth most important course in East Lothian.

Dan King
dking@danking.org

quote:"It is on the flat side and at the first glance some people look upon it almost as an inland course, but after a round or two one becomes greatly impressed by the good golf that is to be obtained upon it and its excellent testing capacity."
--Harry Vardon (1905, on Muirfield)

[Mike @ Kiawah]

Tom--

Actually, The Ocean Course keeps improving with age.  It was 91st in 1995, 90th in 1997, 72nd in 1999 and 65th this year.  We are going to do some minor alterations next summer and hope to move up even further (possibly into the top 100 of the world) by 2003 (when our $100 million oceanfront hotel is completed near Turtle Point and we're planning to host a huge event at The Ocean Course -- the contract is close to completion)...

[Jeff_Lewis]

I applaud GOLF magazine for bringing so many great courses around the world to all of our attention over the years...ask anybody who has ever been to Australia what a joy New South Wales and Kingston Heath are!
Unfortunately, from a statistical standpoint, their survey is essentially useless. Their panel is too small, too filled with bias, or not genuinely interested in architecture (I refer here to the celebrity issue). Say what you want about Digest's flaws in their methodology, but at least most courses of note in the US have a fighting chance of getting enough visits. Does anybody think that Tom Weiskopf or Jack Nicklaus or Frank Nobilo or Bryant Gumbel is really going to go play Fenway or Yeaman's Hall because they heard they did a great restoration? GOLF does a great service doing this list, but they do a disservice to the process by not making it more sound.