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jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bunkers, Shmunkers...
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2001, 11:28:00 AM »
Tom:

Boy! You sure do ask a lot of questions. Sometimes I find it had to discern whether they are real questions or statements written in the form of questions.

I will presume your questions in the above post to be genuine and take a stab at them.

First, let me assure you that I don't think of myself as an expert on Fazio although I probably come closer than anyone who has only played a few of his courses.  I guess I have played a lot of them but not as many as Ross courses, and I don't have a special concentration on Fazio.  I have been playing for about 45 years and have been lucky enough to play a lot of courses by many architects. It just happens that I have spent 90% of my life in the Southeast and played a lot of golf in the Carolinas, Georgia, and Florida where Fazio has built the majority of his courses in the past quarter century. Some of his courses I like a lot. Some are pretty good, and some are nothing special. I have seen enough of his couses to know that there is more variation in his style than most people seem to think, and that broad general statements about his work are likely to be wrong. So far, I have not seen any of his "restoration" work but have seen a few of his total redesigns.

I cringe often when I read comments about Fazio that I judge to be mistaken or too generalized. Rarely do I speak up in his defense for fear of being accused of having a vested interest since I am a member of two clubs that have Fazio courses. Besides, I think it is a waste of time to try to change anyone's mind about Fazio.

Frankly, I don't detect many tendencies in his bunker design or placement. I would not consider his bunkering either his biggest strength or weakness. He has strengths and weaknesses that are much more important than his bunkering.

I suppose I like the bunkering at Forest Creek best of all his couses I have seen. He has cross bunkers on the par 5 third hole and a bunker in the middle of the fairway on the short par4 eigth. Neither are common features on modern courses. He has positioned some fairway bunkers that must be flirted with to gain the optimum approach, but he also has fairway bunkers that I call "sucker" bunkers. You are tempted to flirt with them but the penalty far exceeds any imagined advantage. He  has also mixed in some waste areas that offer a look sometimes referred to as the "Pine Valley look". In most cases the severity of the bunkers is very appropriate for the shot required to get into and out of it.

Off the top of my head, I guess Treyburn CC in Durham, NC has his poorest bunkering I can think of.  The course is built on some severe terrain and several of the bunkers serve absolutely no purpose other than to keep the ball on the golf course. But then, the fairway bunker to the right of the 2nd at Merion serves no purpose other than keeping the ball out of traffic.

I have begun to pay a little more attention to bunkering style when I play courses, because I know one can not discuss any course on this discussion group unless you are prepared to discuss bunkering. I may notice bunkering a little more on Fazio courses for the following reason. Many of Fazio's courses that I have seen come in pairs, that is, two courses at the same club. That would apply to World Woods, Black Diamond, Wild Dunes, Pelican Hill, Pinehurst CC, Belfair, Barton Creek, and Forest Creek (second course under construction). Anytime I see two courses on the same property by the same architect, I pay particular attention to differences/similarities in design style, including bunkering.

That is all I have to say on this subject.
Thanks for asking.

"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

T_MacWood

Bunkers, Shmunkers...
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2001, 04:55:00 PM »
Jim
Fazio fascinates me, it seems like you either love him or hate him. Is it true that Fazio has a tendency to use bunkers to frame, as opposed to a strategic purpose? That is common complaint, but it sounds like Forest Creek might be a different story. Is Forest Creek unusual or is the complaint generally unwarranted? And other than the couple of holes you cited at FC would you consider the bunkering on the remainder of the holes well placed using your most important criteria? Have you played Flint Hills, if so what do you make of its bunkering?

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bunkers, Shmunkers...
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2001, 05:25:00 PM »
Tom:
I really can't buy into the idea that you have to either "love" or "hate" Tom Fazio's work (I presume you meant his work, not the man.), or for that matter, any other architect.  I think you can compliment some of an architect's work without "loving" everything he does and you can criticize some of his work without "hating" everything he does. I think that fits me. I figure that all architects have done some work, at least a little, that deserves praise, and I imagine that even the very best did some work that deserves criticism. Yes, I like a lot of Fazio's courses, but I do not care for some such as the Harbor course at Wild Dunes or St. Ives in Atlanta. Also, I may be the most outspoken critic (that I know) of his highly-acclaimed Wade Hampton. It is a fine course, but I honestly think it is overrated.

With regard to your question about the claim that he has a tendency to use bunkers to frame holes.....as I said in my previous post, I have not noticed a lot of tendencies in his bunkering and belive them to have a lot of variety. Frankly, I just don't understand the hole concept of framing, so I am not qualified to say.  I will say that I look at bunkers and try to decide what pupose they serve. I can think of only one at  Forest Creek that serves no pupose I can discern (fairway bunker on the par 4 fifth hole). The only course I can think of where every single bunker has a easily recognizable stategic purpose is Cherokee Plantation by Donald Steel. There may be at least 50 on the Colleton River-Dye course alone. I don't remember seeing many on Fazio courses but I probably was not always paying attention to that detail.  I have never seen Flint Hills.

I will be happy to continue discussing Fazio, but could we change the subject to something other than bunkers?

"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

T_MacWood

Bunkers, Shmunkers...
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2001, 05:40:00 PM »
Jim
Does Pinehurst #2 have bunkers that serve no strategic purpose?

How about Fazio's use of natural features, one of the reasons I enjoyed Victoria National was because of the unusual site and the abundance of natural features. Although the course is a bit too refined; I would've enjoyed a little more naturalness/savagery interjected into the design. How would you analyze his ability to use and/or incorporate natural features into his strategic scheme?


jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bunkers, Shmunkers...
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2001, 06:21:00 PM »
Tom:

I too short on time tonight to provide a quality reply.

As I type this ,I am running through the bunkers on Pinehurst #2 in my mind and for the first time, I realize that at one time or another I have been in every damn one of them! I can't think of one that sooner or later won't influence your decision on club selection, shot shape, trajectory, and target selection. I suppose that qualifies them all as having a strategic impact.

Some of Fazio's courses have been built on sites that offer excellent natural features and I suppose it is fair to say he has incorporated those features well into the design. I believe those are some of his better courses. Examples include Galloway National, Black Diamond-Quarry,  Word Woods-Pine Barrens, and the Canyon Course at Barton Creek. I'm not sure what you mean by "savage" but if you mean that wild, natural look like you find at Sand Hills, I have not seen any Fazio course that is so dramatic. Some parts of Galloway National come close, and I think the new course (under construction) at Forest Creek may be another good example.

Many of Fazio's courses are built on sites that are not naturally very good sites. Some are on severe terrain (Champion Hills, the Quarry at La Quinta, and the Canyons course at Big Horn) and others are built on low-lying land nearly at sea level(many of his coastal courses in the Carolinas). In those cases it has taken some pretty good imagination and a heck of a lot of money and earth moving to create a course that has a reasonably natural look when he is finished. I have seen a few recently on the coast of the Carolinas (Berkeley Hall, Eagle Point, Daniel Island, and Belfair-East) where he had to almost completly manufacture a course on low-lying land, but you have to look carefully at the finished product to realize that the contours and features are not natural. At La Quinta, Big Horn, and Champion Hills, he produced pretty decent courses but, natural, they are not, and it shows.

I guess Shadow Creek is a story all its own, but I have not seen it.

"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

T_MacWood

Bunkers, Shmunkers...
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2001, 07:11:00 PM »
Jim
I have heard some positive reports on Galloway -- what types of natural features did he utilize and how are they incorporated into the strategic scheme?

TEPaul

Bunkers, Shmunkers...
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2001, 07:46:00 PM »
Sometimes you see things you never expect to see. I'm not really sure whether this could be credited to Tom Fazio or the course's maintenance practices but there is a bunker on one of the back nine par 3s (#14 maybe) at Galloway that was short and right of the green---a very large bunker. One of the people I was playing with hit his ball into that bunker and we started to look for his ball but gave up after about 30 seconds. There was so much vegetation in that bunker it could not be entered. Even Brer Rabbit might have shied away from that one.

Not unlike the two bunkers on the right side of the fairway at Merion's #10. There was so much stuff in those there was no way at all of hitting much less finding your ball. If you tried to enter one of those you probably would have torn up your clothes.


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