[Paul_Daley]

Many of the courses listed in this thread a sure tough 'old nuts' to crack. But for me, nothing can compete with Carnoustie for the honour/ignomy of the world's hardest course. With virtually no wind, Paul Lawrie won the Open Championship with 7 over par!

16-18 are huge finishing holes, but it is tough right the whole way around. Carnoustie is one of the few courses anywhere without a breather. Yes, there are a few shorter holes, but they can murder you, due to the excacting nature of the linksland.

Waterville in a gale is unplayably difficult - my second choice, as is Ballybunion New - third choice.

[Jean Van de Velde]

Wizout a doubt, ze toughest course must
be Carnoustie!

[Mike_Cirba]

It just goes to show how jaded we all are that a psychosis-inducing course like Flying Hills GC in Reading PA is overlooked in this discussion.  

It's less than 6,500 yards, par 70, but will absolutely kill the golfer off his or her game.  

Of course, that's mostly due to the fact that it's built through a housing development, with many holes featuring OB on both side, 5 yards off of 25 yard wide fairways.

Not to mention, it's often disconcerting to stand over a ball with small children playing in back yards, seemingly carrying ball-magnets in the back pockets of their trousers.  

Toss in sloped greens normally putting at 22 on the Stimp, some woods, some water, and a severely hilly site, and I don't feel particularly bad about the 114 I shot there....my highest score in the past 20 years.  

If you seek it out, just make sure you're up to date on your liability insurance payments!

[Paul_Daley]

Flying Hills sounds mean and nasty, making
Carnoustie seem like a soda all of a sudden.

[Gene Greco]

Lou and Tom:

  Despite the high #, I LOVED Desert Forest for the exact reason you stated above, Lou. It's minimalist design is the finest in the state of AZ. I was obviously spraying the driver that day but still view the course as a VERY fair test. Magnificent greens with gentle but befuddling contours and lightening speed are the best I've played on in AZ. The low key atmosphere and feel of the place is so unlike any other course in the Scottsdale area; nothing is even remotely overdone and I believe the membership strives to keep it that way. Though it would not be able to accomodate a gallery it sure would measure up to any in a tournament setting.
  This thread is really two-fold. On one hand there are some courses which are difficult but fair and others which are stupid and rediculous. Desert Forest definitely fits into the former and should be a must see for any serious GCA'er.

[T_MacWood]

The most difficult round I've ever experienced was at Whistling Straits, but a 3 to 4 club wind was a major contributer. I played with three fine golfers just over from Ireland and had one of my best ball striking rounds, I was the closest in the group to breaking 100.

Interesting that Mission Inn was mentioned, its the only course in Florida I've ever played -- several years ago. It looks, from their website, that the course has been toughened up a bit. The routing is basically the same, but there looks to be a lot more sand. The configuration has also been altered due to a clubhouse move. #4 and #13 were #9 and #18.

Other very difficult courses not already mentioned are Victoria National, Muirfield Village and Firestone-North.

But my vote would be for Oakmont.

[John_Conley]

Tom:

I think they moved the clubhouse when they built Las Colinas and no longer start in the high corner.

Put an average golfer on the tips and they'll really struggle with the course because the teeshot will almost never be in play.  Scratch players have a real hard time breaking 80.

I don't know that it is any tougher than it used to be.

[T_MacWood]

John
It looks much more difficult and it was a strong test before - even from the regular tees.  Longer and narrower, as I said it looks like they've added quite a few new bunkers. I have fond memories of the place.

[BillV]

I followed the Open at Carnoustie, haven't played the course.  It certainly is on the short list, but my vote for hardest has to be Shinnecock from the tips.  Mama Mia! that'sa challenge.  I don't need to see harder without water.

Old Marsh from the tips with all its swamps and a 25 mph wind is another matter, but that's not the challenge of a hard course to me, 250 into the wind over marsh about 6 times, just to put it into play. Modern golf at its finest!

[Scott_Burroughs]

Tom,
   Victoria was mentioned above by Ward Peyronnin.  It looks brutal from the pix on their website.

[Chris B.]

While Spyglass, the Ocean Course, & PGA West are extremely tough, Olympic, Ridgewood, Merion, & the Honors Course would be my picks on a more tradional lay-out.

[JohnV]

I would agree with John Conley on his comments on Bandon.  With the usual summer wind, 5, 6, 11 and 15 can be brutal, but you make up for it on other holes so it works out fairly.  I was one of the original course raters for the Oregon Golf Association there and the wind factor is almost neutralized because of this.

I agree with many of the comments on places like RCD, the Ocean course and others, so I'll add two more courses to the list.

Salishan on the Oregon coast is probably harder than Bandon by a long stretch.  The course has been open for over 25 years and only 7 players had broken 70 the last time I heard.  When they had a pro-am there a couple of years ago, 1/3 of the pros no-carded.  It used to be worse, but the cut the rough back, cleared under the trees in places and added some containment mounds to keep balls out of the junk a few years ago.

Old Warson is one of the tougher courses I've seen.  The fairways all slope so severely fom one side to the other that you really have to shape a shot correctly to keep it out of the trees.  Not a course where you'd lose a lot of balls, but definitely one that can beat you up.

There was one in Essex in England that my dad and I played in the late 60s that we had to quit after 17 as we had run out of balls.  As I recall almost every hole was surrounded by gorse and required about a 150 yard or greater carry from the tee to get it in play.  I don't remember the name of it, but I know it was somewhere out near Southend.

[Bob_Huntley]

The toughest conditions, not necessarily the toughest course, was the Golf Club de Elizabethville in Katanga Province, Belgian Congo, back in 1961, during the unpleasantness there.

Machine gun nests set in the bunkers and some very trigger happy Force Publique soldiers ready to eliminate those people stupid enough to venture into their new domain. I tried it once and retired after nine holes. Long carries, wild rough and penal approaches are as nothing compared to a round or two from an AK47.

[Bob_Huntley]

The toughest conditions, not necessarily the toughest course, was the Golf Club de Elizabethville in Katanga Province, Belgian Congo, back in 1961, during the unpleasantness there.

Machine gun nests set in the bunkers and some very trigger happy Force Publique soldiers ready to eliminate those people stupid enough to venture into their new domain. I tried it once and retired after nine holes. Long carries, wild rough and penal approaches are as nothing compared to a round or two from an AK47.

[THuckaby2]

Excellent perspective, as always Mr. Huntley.

I got a definite chuckle picturing you sweet-talking F.P. soldiers... the fact this really happened, and you are most definitely here to tell the story, is what makes it so damn funny!

TH

[Gene Greco]

Bob H.

 I love the game but I wouldn't put my life on the line to play it. You, sir, have balls of steel.

[Don_Mahaffey]

My choices for toughest courses;

Carnoustie-played it last summer and even with the fwys cut wider than during the open and the rough tamed down, it was still a monster. Just no let ups, and a lot more thick vegetation than around the other Scottish courses I played.

Geronimo course at Desert Mountain and the new Morrish design in Tucson, Stone Canyon. Both courses and require length and precision off the tee. They are almost unplayable from the tips if the wind is up. The penalty for missing a fairway is two shots, not one.

PGA West-Stadium Course. Goofy golf, but worth playing once.

[Paul Richards]

another new nominee:

Spring Hill GC, outside Minneapolis, MN.

Rating is 74.8, slope is a "mild" 153.

[John_Conley]

Great nomination of Spring Hill.  Haven't yet seen it since I get back to MPLS less and less, but I've heard it is very hard.  I know a club pro that said he made his first par on #13.

[Paul Richards]

John:

I can believe it.  

Spring Hill is very difficult.  I made
two birdies on the back nine, but the
three doubles didn't help my score...

On the positive side, it's a wonderful
course.  The set of par 5's here can
rival just about any set of par 5's
on any course.

[Mike Touscany]

If I wasn't having such a good time my clubs would have ended up in the ocean at Tralee during a downpour.  Number 11 was nothing short of a marathon hole.  570 yards from the tips and that hill...it had to have been 80 foot elevation change tee to green.

[Dan Kelly]

You folks amaze me.

I'm as nutty about golf as most of you seem to be, but I'd never heard of GolfClubAtlas.com until I read that Philadelphia Inquirer story about Merion.

I've been spending too much time on this site ever since, reading your various discussions. Wonderful stuff. (I should make this my Home Page, though my employer might not appreciate that.)

One question keeps rising to the surface of my wee brain: Have you ALL played Pine Valley, Carnoustie, Royal County Down, Ballybunion, Winged Foot West, Riviera, Olympic and all of these other magnificent beasts that I merely dream of playing? It seems as though you have!

How'd you swing it? And, more to the point: How can I?

Just in case you've been wondering: I'd be delighted to accept any of your invitations, any time. I'm good company. I show up on time. I dress neatly. I don't leave cigar ashes on the greens -- or anywhere else, for that matter. I swear quietly when I slice one into the woods. (Well, OK, not quietly.)

True, I'm a member of the dreaded NEWS MEDIA -- but I'm certain that you would quickly forgive me for that, as many of my friends have.

Thanks for the entertainment, and the continuing education.

[Mike_Cirba]

Dan,

Welcome, and glad to hear that we didn't come off as a bunch of anachronistic, reactionary nutcases if that story didn't scare you off!  Honestly, only some of us are.  

Are you from the Philly area?

I'm not sure exactly what to tell you as far as playing great courses, but hang around and if you're as passionate and knowledgeable about golf courses as you sound, when there's a will...

Besides, it's the best grill room in the world for passionate, educated, and eloquent debate.  

[John Morrissett]

To me, Crystal Downs is the most difficult, with the ever-present wind, intimidating rough, and terrifying greens.

I've played there only once, but the 12th hole summed up how I viewed the course: Hook a tee shot into the rough, search for three minutes, find ball, hack out into fairway, play decent  iron that refuses to stop anywhere near the hole, and then, taking great care with each putt, take three putts for a 6.  It seems I repeated that exact scenario on about half a dozen holes!

From the tips the course measure something like 6500 yards, has a "par" of 70 but a course rating of something like 73.5.

Of course, since my wife never misses more than two fairways per round and actually has a clue on the greens, she might have a different view.

[Dan Kelly]

Mike,

Thank you.

But you misunderstand. You DID come across as a bunch of anachronistic, reactionary nutcases! My kind of people! That's what I'm liking about this place.

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