[John_Conley]

Haven't seen them, but I'm surprised I'm not hearing about THE GAUNTLET in Wilmington, NC area or THE INTERNATIONAL outside Boston.  Both courses market their difficulty.  Anyone know anything about these?

Funny how opinions differ.  I can think of a lot of courses much harder than SPYGLASS HILL for me.  Take a guy who hits it sideways and put him on a Florida swamp course like BONITA BAY, MEDALIST, or NAPLES NATIONAL and watch the pinball machine scores start.

Some of those Arizona desert courses look brutal.

[THuckaby2]

Jim - ok, fair enough.  I guess I just caught Carnoustie in abnormally easy conditions... Sure, I'd agree a normal day there includes wind.  It still just seems strange to me to have to depend on it... thus these courses at the very least get an asterisk in the "toughest" discussion, and those that are tough no matter what warrant their own category - like the ones you listed.

Fair enough?

TH

[ForkaB]

There are calm days at Carnoustie.  Even on windy days it is not extraordinarily difficult, as long as the rough is normal links rough and not that cabbage they planted and fertilized for the 1999 Open.

Which goes to show that it is not at all hard to create an extraordinarily hard golf course.  Just narrow the fairways at East Podunk Muni to 5 yards and surround that strip with US Open rough, and take the rakes out of the bunkers and shave the greens and put the pins on sidehill slopes and even Tiger won't break 80.

It's hard to build an interesting course and even harder to condition it to insure that it continues to be interesting.  Life is too short for me to even think about wanting to play the Ko Olau's of the world.

[Matt_Ward]

Any of the big name courses located near the ocean, sea or lake will invariably feature wind. Those courses so located will always be especially demanding. Play Bandon when the wind is blowing (a usual event on the Oregon coast) and you'll be battling one tough hombre.

You can take most top Pete Dye courses and fit them neatly into this discussion ...

Ocean Course at Kiawah
PGA West / Stadium
Whistling Straits / original 18

I will also mention that Nicklaus in his earlier designs featured extremely difficult tests (check out the Geronimo course) at Desert Mountain. Also, need to repeat the difficulty of Wolf Run in Zionsville, Indiana. Makes Victoria National look like chip n' putt.

One other note: It's important to mention hard courses with optimal turf conditions. Some people have posted courses when it is windy and wet in early spring. That's stretching a bit!

Toughest courses played in the peak of the playing season should be the reasonable standard.

[THuckaby2]

John - perspective is indeed very important here.  I've played quite a few Arizona desert courses and I can't think of any really brutal ones... and Spyglass remains #1 in my book.  But again, I can't help but have this colored by my perspective - I don't tend to spray the ball that much, so hazards to the sides aren't what make a course tough for me, nor do forced carries all that much...

But I can see a very high handicapper achieving an infinite score on courses like the Stadium course in Florida... or the ones you mention (from what I hear)...

Very interesting indeed.

TH

[Scott_Burroughs]

John,
   I've played the Gauntlet in Southport, near Wilmington, and it has some tough holes near the end that I remember (from the tips).  #15 and #17 were the brutes.

About Koolau, it is actually a 158 slope from the next-to-back tees, where I played it, and it is tough.  Extremely beautiful views below the cliffs.  Always wet.  I lost a few balls, not quite as many as my handicap, I think, but still had a fairly high score despite two birdies.  Had a good drive on final hole over huge carry and had 3-iron in.  Pulled it in left green-side trap to make bogey.

I felt Maderas, north of San Diego was quite tough, especially when you're not driving the ball well.  Tee shots on 14-17 were tight with big carries.

[John_Conley]

I think I'd like KO OLAU.  Not a steady diet, but once in a while for kicks.

For the Huckster:

Moe Norman said all that stuff on the sides is for scenery anyway!  When I played SPYGLASS it reminded me a lot of HAZELTINE once I got past #5.  Definitely a hard course for the TOUR pros under U.S. Open conditions, but nothing where a 25 handicap would shoot 140.

It's been said there is no better indicator of the spread between a TOUR pro and average golfer than their scores from the tips on TPC STADIUM.  I gotta agree.  Norman was -24 once and an 18 handicap wouldn't break 100 from the same tees.

I'm looking forward to LAGOON LEGEND and am surprised I haven't heard more about it.  I think it is 15 years old.

[Paul Richards]

John Conley:

Having played all three courses you've
mentioned here, here are my thoughts:

Lagoon Legend - architecturally, the
thought must have been "if we surround
each (and nearly every) green with water,
we'll get a very high slope rating that
we can use in our pretty brochures."

Ko Olau - one of the most scenic courses
anywhere (think Jurassic Park as its
surroundings!), since you know it is
difficult going in, you aren't so concerned
with your score.  There are many, many
carries over ravines.  Very tough, but
very enjoyable.

Wolf Run - a beautiful modern golf course.
I didn't find it nearly as tough as many
others have described it.  A very good
course, but not on my list of hardest courses.

My personal toughest course is Carnoustie -
aka CARNASTY.  Those last 3 holes are
absolutely killers!

However, my favorite memory of "taming"
this beast, on the way to about an 88,
was holing out a 5-iron on the ninth hole
for an eagle!

[THuckaby2]

John C - understood.  That's why I said the high capper might have an infinite score at TPC Stadium...

And this is what I meant by perspective. I am looking at this based on my own game.  I am sure as hell NOT on the same planet as a tour pro, but I also don't lose many golf balls.  For me all the chipping out of the trees, the tough greens, the very long approaches into tight areas, all that makes Spyglass the bitch that it is.  But darn right, the high 'capper is gonna lose more balls and do worse at TPC Stadium and more "penal" courses.

Got it.

TH

[ForkaB]

For what it's worth, I've played both TPC-Stadium and Spyglass more than 10 times each (and both 2 times from the tips, or as near as dammit from the tips) and I think that Spyglass is much harder for the single figure player.  I actually broke my handicap by 5 shots once in Ponte Vedra.  If I ever did that at Spyglass I'd give myself a drug test.  And, both are miles harder than Carnoustie.  IMHO.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I believe the conversation accidentally went from the Stadium course at PGA West, which is something like a 151 slope from the tips and admittedly hard by virtually everyone, to the Stadium course at Sawgrass, which is not as hard as PGA West and definitely not as hard as when it first opened.

[ForkaB]

Agreed Scott

I first played TPC-Sawgrass soon after it opened in the early 80's, and it was 5-10 shots harder then than Sawgrass CC across the street, which wasn't and isn't easy.  Now it's a very good course, but not daunting.

[THuckaby2]

I may be the culprit accidentally switching Stadium courses... I know I started talking about Palm Desert and then also mentioned Ponte Vedra!  Mea culpa.

Absolute agreement here with my friend Rich, in any case.  I've yet to play Ponte Vedra, but seen it enough on tv to at lease hazard (pun intended) a guess.  I have played each of Carnoustie, Palm Desert Stadium and Spyglass and I concur with Rich.  The day I have a great score on either of the latter two is the day I finally "get it."  Ain't gonna happen any time soon.

TH

[John_Conley]

My only trip to Stadium in Ponte Vedra was the Saturday after the event and the conditions were BRUTAL.  Greens were paved, with ankle high rough hugging all edges.  I couldn't hit a 7 iron 140 from a typical lie in the rough and had trouble keeping some putts within 20 feet of the hole.

If I saw it again in a different month I might have a different impression.

Playing #7 on the Lake 9 at Errol Estate this weekend, my playing companion (who was lying two under a lip 175 yards from the green) commented that it isn't really a hard par 4.  ?!!  

It is one of the hardest driving holes in Orlando unless you draw the teeshot (less common from observation in the era of large & long drivers) followed by an approach to a narrow opening with O.B. on both sides of the green.

"All you have to do is hit it down the middle," he said.  I pointed out how hard that is to do for me and everyone else on a regular basis - including him, handicap 6.

The hardest thing for me involves forced carries of over 220 yards (no gimme for this low-ball hitter at sea level, especially into the wind), marsh as a hazard instead of trees (I have a good short game and am a great bunker player - so I've never minded chasing it under branches in the vicinity of the green), and narrow greens (since I play to "areas" on my approaches instead of along specific lines).

I can tell from the dialogue that others are more challenged by bunkers in the landing area or difficult green contouring, even though they may not be any better than I am.

Interesting thoughts shared by all on this thread so far.

Thought of the day:  MOST HOLES AREN'T HARD IF YOU HIT BOTH THE FAIRWAY AND THE GREEN!  The question for me is always what happens if I don't!!

Many of the courses I consider so hard can be remedied by moving up a tee marker and taking out the challenge of the teeshot.  The carries at Bonita Bay are all manageable and the trees at El Campeon are no longer staring you in the face.

[John_Conley]

Just remembered that I'd yet to comment on BANDON DUNES.  This is without question NOT a real hard course if you play as it was intended.  The plan of the architect was to have a course about 6700-6800 from the back tee and a "member's" tee of 6300 or so.  To preserve certain shots in both seasons (if you haven't been there, the wind shifts about 150-degrees from winter to summer), some back tees are necessary on certain holes to prevent you from bounding through the landing area.  Hence the back tee on #4, which you can't see unless you go looking.

#5 was not intended to play 470 or whatever into those strong winds.

My last round there I made 5 birdies playing with our group of 40 or 50 people, from a normal member's type tee... probably 6300-6400.  

Anyone referring to the difficulty of playing it "tipped out" in their strong winds is being fooled by the conditions.  Lift Bandon from that site and put it somewhere without wind (Phoenix?) and the winning score on the PGA TOUR would be -20 or more even if they played all 7300 yards.

Some kid shot 28 in a High School match on the back there once!

I played SAND HILLS in some of the strongest wind I've ever seen.  Tee to green that is probably a little tougher than Bandon because of the difficult greens, but nobody mentioned that one yet.

[Matt]

The International is not penal, a very good course on hilly, wooded land, with great views particularly in the fall. Despite being long, there is sufficent room to hit the ball. You would have to be a raving lunatic to play from the tiger tees, few do, but even if you did it would not be the hardest course as at most you will be punching out of the woods alot, but you may be in traction the next day due to the unbelievable 8300+ yards.

[sand in my shoes]

How about Pine Valley?

[Gene Greco]

I've played many of the courses listed above and would like to expound on an Arizona desert course not mentioned above.

My current handicap is 8. I have:
   Scored 80 from the tips at Shinnecock in a moderate wind.
   Scored 80 from the tips at Winged Foot West just two weeks ago.
   Scored 82 from the tips at Spyglass three years ago.
   Never scored above 85 at Pine Valley in the four rounds I've played there.
   Scored 77 at Desert Mountain (Renegade) last March which I don't consider an overly difficult BUT.....scored 103 the next day at DESERT FOREST, a 1962 Red Lawrence design.

DESRT FOREST GETS MY VOTE.

[THuckaby2]

Gene - great call re Desert Forest - I have another friend who played there recently and he called it "the hardest course on earth."  I shouldn't have made my sweeping generalization re AZ desert courses way up above, in truth I haven't played that many.  But Desert Forest does have this reputation indeed.

TH

[Paul Richards]

Having played many of the other courses
mentioned above, I thought I'd relate a
few more points.

TPC Stadium - Sawgrass:   A friend bet my
buddy (a 3-handicapper) and myself (an 8 at
the time) that we couldn't finish a round
with the same sleeve of balls, from the tips
here.  We lost.  I lasted until the 16th
green, and, after dumping two on 17, the
3-handicapper proceeded to dump two more
on 18!  This is one tough cookie.

TPC Stadium at La Quinta - So over-the-top
it was almost silly.  Another friend (+2)
and I played here from the backs.  Not much
fun - do you get a free game when you putt
the ball into the clown's mouth?

Ocean Course at Kiaweh - Very difficult,
especially in the wind (when isn't there
wind there?).  From the backs, everything
you want, and more.

Desert Mountain - Geronimo:  This may get
my vote for most difficult US course from
the tips.  Absolutely impossible from
back there (plus, we played in some real
wind).  It felt like every hole was a
480-yard par 4 into the wind over a chasm
(or two).  Just plain hard!

[D Moriarty]

A course like PGA West Stadium is very hard, especially from the longer tees.  But its difficulty, for me, is very much related to lost and unplayable balls--  when my penalty strokes exceed my handicap I find it difficult to score well (I am a 12 index).
 
I am more in awe of courses which exact their wrath without resort to the use of an excessive number of death knell obstacles-- Bethpage Black and La Purisima come immediately to mind.  (The wanna-be tour pros at Q-school a few years back can attest to the difficulty of La Purisima.)

[Monarchs_House]

My three toughest courses are as follows: The Mountain Course at Cordillera in Edwards, CO., Carnoustie (no value added here) and The Cashen Course at Ballybunion (much harder than the Old Course and may just be an unfair test of golf.)

[JLahrman]

Three toughest that I have played:

Ocean Course
Winged Foot West
Stanwich, CT

[Lou_Duran]

Gene:

I played Desert Forest about five years ago and liked it very much.  Unlike many of the Scottsdale courses where the desert is played as a lateral hazard, at DF if you hit it in the junk you find it and play it, or you go back to the spot from where you hit the errant shot.  It is also somewhat unique because it does not have the artificial features common to other courses in the area.  It looks like Mr. Lawrence understood the minimalist philosophy, and used what nature provided to a very satisfactory end.

Maybe I was having a decent day, but my host was rooting for me to break 80 from the back tees, and he informed me on the 17th tee that I needed a par and a bogey on the last two holes to do so.  Unfortunately, I whimpered in with a double on 17, and a three putt bogey from 15 feet on 18.  In my opinion, DF is very difficult, but also very fair.  For my game, the five "toughest courses" that I mentioned earlier are much more difficult than DF, but not nearly as good.

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Any Private Course is a hard layout for me to play. It's hard to putt when they release the hounds.    

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