Why developers choose high profile designers?

[HR]

Here in Dallas-FT.Worth Fazio is building two new high-end courses.  

The first Vaquero, a residential community with lot costs ranging as high as $1,000,000 with an initiation fee of $60,000.  Apparently sales are going well.

The second, Dallas National. A golf club only on 400 acres. Initiation fee is $125,000 and they have already sold half of the 250 memberships and the course is yet to be sodded.  I heard Ron Whitten toured the facility and had some nice things to say. Others are saying it may be one of his best.
However, I was wondering with the likes  of Sand Hills and Brandon Dunes if we will see developers start to gamble with lower profile designers? Granted I hardly consider C@C low profile.

Here is a link to a sneak preview of the courses. www.avidgolfer2000.com  

[TEPaul]

If it's a question, for the same reason developers do anything!!--they think it will sell--period.

[Matt_Ward]

HR: Developers look for high profile architects for one reason -- guaranteed name recognition from Joe and Sally Average Citizen. Therefore, the likelihood of success with home sales and all the rest.

Lesser known architects don't have the cache for instant $$$ generation. Sadly, this type of thing can become repeated over and over again. I am a firm believer there exists a good number of lesser known architects who fully understand golf and would provide no less a golf design product -- in a number of cases probably a superior one.

I would hope the pattern is changing possibly in the Dallas area. But Joe average citizen doesn't buy from so-called no name brands -- therefore the continued reliance upon the names I just cited and quite probably a few more as well.

[RJ_Daley]

Reading this article makes me wonder why the contributors to these on-going GCA discusions get so incredulous and upset at the aloofness and disdain that they interpret in Fazio's writings about golden era golf courses, or what he would do to them.  His business is not with golf development at all.  Why would he show any reverance for the genius of the design of a golf course.  His business is with creating landscaped illusions of granduer and opulent backdrops for an overclass who need concierge attended playgrounds, not real sporting facilities.  Hiring a surrogate to actually go out there and hit the golf shots for you can't be but a hairs length behind this non-sense.  They are already serving food at 4 of the holes at Cowboys course with melon scented cold towels for a little pick-me-up.  That whole scene in Dallas-FW seems to be gravitating towards nothing more than a motorized cart riding wine and cheese teagarden outting rather than going out to play a round of golf at a golf course.  Reading this claptrap of ostentatious conspicuous consumerism makes me wonder when the revolution will start.  

[Matt_Ward]

RJ: That's so true!

Many of these people are not there for the golf. They are there for the hobknobbing, the networking, the have the wherewithal ($$$) to be "seen." I'll say what my late father said ... there are two types of people those who play golf and those who are golfers. I know what heading the people you have mentioned belong to.

We now have in golf what Tom Wolfe so articulately described in "Bonfire of the Vanities."

Golf is only used as means for some other grand purpose. How utterly sad and such a waste.

P.S. I'm waiting for the time when these so-called golfers will be able to actually drive their own XJ6 right on the course.

[HL Mencken]

No one in this world, so far as I know- and I have researched the records for years, and employed agents to help me- has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people.

[RJ D]

Good one Matt!  The golfing equivalent with the theme in "Bonfires..." and "Wallstreet".  Club presidents of the competing Fazio courses there in Big D are, T. Boone and Chainsaw Al...

[RJD]

Why Dallas-FW?  Of course, how could I be so dumb.  It is an unlimitted homestead law state where you can put all your $$$ in the residence (probably these courses have some feature to attach the club membership with the homelot) and equity strip your assets, screw your creditors, and hide out in your Vaquero or Dallas National digs untouchable.  Paul Bilzerian is in your tuesday afternoon 4some, and and Ivan Boesky's picture hangs on the clubhouse mantle.  

[Lou_Duran]

Actually, we have several new courses in the D/FW metroplex designed by good, though less well known architects.  Jeff Brauer, John Colligan, Keith Foster, and David Graham with Gary Panks have all done some fine work in this area.

The primary reason why well heeled developers flock to Nicklaus and Fazio is that these two gentlemen have an outstanding record of building courses that sell high priced memberships and lots.  Whether you believe as I do that many people pay a premium for belonging to a Fazio or Nicklaus design because they tend to be superior golf properties, or you think that these folks are either snobs, stupid, or both, the hard fact is that these projects usually perform very well financially.

While Tom Doak and some of the other preferred architects of this site may be doing some very laudable work, they do not yet have the track record and name recognition which translates to $500,000 lots and $100,000 initiation fees.  

In Tom's case, he seems to be getting plenty of work anyways.  His Lubbock project, if it comes to fruition, will probably go further in identifying his talent than his work on Pacific Dunes.  Here he will have a relatively unexciting canvass, but reportedly, sufficient budget to move a lot of dirt.  If he is to make the Texas Tech U. course the top collegiate facility in the country (supposedly the benefactor's objective), he will probably have to go well beyond his minimalist instincts and apply some very bold strokes.

Finally, there are some of us with more than average knowledge of golf course architecture and the game of golf who actually have a lot of respect for the work of Jack Nicklaus and Tom Fazio.  It is not incongruous to appreciate the classic designs of MacKenzie, Ross, Tillinghast, Raynor, Thomas, and MacDonald while enjoying the bold, modern style of Fazio, Nicklaus, Dye, and the Jones family.    

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Lou:
I have played many of Tom Doak's courses and he already applies "bold strokes" within the confines of a minimalist design.  Now maybe you and I may disagree on "bold strokes."  I am not talking about big lakes with water falls.  I am talking about holes which look different than anything you have ever played, green sites which provide options on how to get up and down while all the time staying in concert with the land which is provided.  He is a risk taker.

"We don't want any controvesy here."
Tom Fazio describing a new course he was visiting one day.

[BillV]

Tom Paul usurped my one word answer....to sell (One word in French and German anyway!) but shall we say, Hedge your bets, gentlemen?

Great summary, Dick.

[Lou_Duran]

Lynn:

I have not played a Doak course, though I hope to at least partially remedy this shortcoming next year with trips to Oregon and Michigan.  My comments regarding Tom's work are based on what I've gleaned from GCA.com and his various writings.

What I meant by my use of the words "bolder strokes" is in the context that the Lubbock tract will not readily give him whatever excitement and interest he hopes to achieve; he will have to create it, most likely by moving a lot of dirt and incorporating some features that may be outside his current repertoire.  If he succeeds in meeting the clients' objectives, it may be interesting to compare his work for Texas Tech with other highly regarded courses built on lackluster tracts (e.g. Shadow Creek).

[Patrick_Mucci]

HR,

The answer is not in the dirt, nor is it in the the sale of homes/condos, it's in the initial financing of the project with the BANKS.

[Mark_Fine]

When I was at Sand Ridge in Ohio, I asked Dusty Murdock why he choose Tom Fazio to build his golf course and not Ben Crenshaw who is one of Dusty's best friends.  Dusty, said, "I can't sell a Ben Crenshaw course, but I can sell a Tom Fazio design"!  End of discussion.
Mark

[brad_miller]

Mark, how long ago was that? Do you think things are changing with the continued number of outstanding C&C courses coming on line? I will say that my best quess, regretfully so is that if you asked my clubs membership to name the top archie to design a club that they might also join, TF, JN and RJ would get more votes than any and all others.

[Lou_Duran]

Patrick:

What do you think drives the financing of any project?  The probability that the lender will receive fees, interest, and the return of principle on a timely basis.  In an industry that has a rather spotty record, apparently, Nicklaus and Fazio projects have a history of paying off.

[Tim_Weiman]

Mark Fine:

Just to build on your quote of Dusty Murdock on why he chose Tom Fazio over Ben Crenshaw to build Sand Ridge:

I doubt that the vast majority of members that Dusty recruited to Sand Ridge have ever seen any of Crenshaw's work. I doubt they've even heard of Bill Coore.

You get much beyond names like Fazio, Dye, Nicklaus, etc., and you just fall of the radar screen.

Having said that, there is one architect favored here that does seem to be getting more name recognition: Tom Doak.  Mike Keiser might not be putting much effort into advertising, but it does seem that people know about Pacific Dunes and TD.

[Mark_Fine]

That quote from Dusty was only about two months ago.  

Tim,
I also asked him about Tom Doak and he jokingly said, "Who"?  Tom might have a better chance to break out than C&C because PD is public where as Sand Hills is private.  

[Gimpy]

Coming from a banking background, Lou is 100% correct.  The developer must put a project on the table that can support the debt/loan needs.  Fazio is a proven name in the financial field that lenders are willing to Bank.  Regardless of your opinion of Fazio's designs, developers, and to a lessor extent lot owners, are leveraging Fazio's name to make the project a success.  Ideally, you would like to see a developer with adequate land size so that they could develop the property with the Fazio name such that they recoup their investment and payoff the bank loans.  Then with the excess land, invite a Doak or C&C to develop the second course.  It would be great to have a side by side comparison on similar land.

[John_Conley]

One name is getting left out.  The "mayor of Naples", Arthur Hills, was once mentioned in a magazine as having the biggest economic return of all major architects.

The reason for this is probably that his work in Naples coincided with a boom in the region, leading to more work for him in that area.

[Tim_Weiman]

Mark Fine:

Actually, your quote of Dusty Murdock is several years old.  I recall him saying exactly the same thing to me as early as 1996.

Beyond the marketability of Fazio vs C&C, there is also the confidence factor when it comes to construction, project management, etc.  That is not to say that other architects can't manage projects well, but the Fazio team offers a certain comfort factor.  This factor might be become less important for Tom Doak as a result of the Texas Tech project. Also, as C&C have more work out there to show people (Friar's Head, for instance), the quality of the entire C&C team may become better appreciated.

[Jeff_Brauer]

RJ Daley,

I believe Cowboys uses "mango" scented towels, not melon scented towels.  Geez, get your facts right, buddy!

[RJ_Daley]

Dad gumit Jeff, I'm trying... So many facts, so little time to get them all straight.  

I wonder if that parfumme sented towel stuff that the Cowboys are going for these days will reach these parts if the Packers ever get their own golf course.  What flavor do you think our towels will be?  Hmmm, golf on the frozen tundra, with all the tradition of Lambeau field and such, we'll just have to restore an old classic from Curly's day rather than build one of those logo ridden corporate cat houses that Jerry Jones would envision.  I have just the one.  Your friend Bob L is actually working on it right now.  Quit Qui Oc, right near the home of the Sheboygan Brat factory, which will be served AFTER THE GOLF IS OVER, not on the 7th and 13th holes.  And the on-course "staff" will consist of a dairy farmer across the electric fence kicking errant OB balls back into play.  And walking only!

Just a small needle Jeff...  keep 'em coming!

[George Pazin]

Dick -

Just wanted to brighten your day a little by passing on the following: Gil Hanse's newest effort, Applebrook, already has 215 of 275 memberships sold, with the course yet to officially open(9/15), and the initiation fee almost doubling since initial offering.

Maybe not the lost cost public golf we're looking for, but at least one of the good guys is succeeding. :-)

[Craig_Rokke]

Some names do carry a lot of weight. Just
ask the Country Club of the Poconos. It's
a community that touts it's course on a local billboard as a "FAZIO design." Jim Fazio that is. You see a little of that with Pete Dye's clan as well.