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Patrick_Mucci

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« on: August 28, 2001, 01:43:00 PM »
We often hear of holes as being too penal,
but often holes that are penal can be fun.

What are the distinquishing features, or the delicate line that seperates penal holes into the fun and agony category ?

What penal holes do you think are penal,
yet fun to play ??


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2001, 02:11:00 PM »
Patrick:

The first two holes that come to mind are:

Pine Valley - #5
PGA West - #16

The 5th at PV is penal and likely to bring agony.  Few holes make me more nervous just standing on the tee.  The prospect of losing a ball or racking up a big score just seems overwhelming.

As for the 16th at PGA West, that bunker to the left of the green is ridiculous, crazy, something way beyond "penal".

But, for some reason every time I played it, people in my foursome WANTED to drop a ball down there and try to escape.

I don't know why, but it always seemed like they were having "fun".

Tim Weiman

JamieS

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2001, 02:16:00 PM »
Partick,

Athough I have yet to play Cypress Point, I would have to guess that #16 would be a great example for your question.

I'm sure a 240-250 yard shot over the Pacific Ocean, with wind whipping, would qualify as both penal if missed, but very fun at the time to play. I know there is a bail out area left of the green, but if you are playing Cypress Point for the first time and not in a tournament, you are going for the green 10 times out of 10.

I also think that holes can be both penal and fun depending on the context of the round you are playing. A very difficult/ penal hole can be fun under a more casual round or even a match play tournament, but can take on an entirely different feel under Stroke Play Tournament conditions.


JamieS

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2001, 02:18:00 PM »
Sorry for the typo...Partick?  No...Patrick.

Ed_Baker

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2001, 02:30:00 PM »
Of the courses I've played.

#17 at Sucession
#17 TPC stadium
# 8 Pebble
#3 Hyannisport
#2 Wannamoisett
#18 Wampanoag

To me these are good examples of penal holes that are still fun to play because most golfers of average length can still play and enjoy them if they hit their very best shots.


brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2001, 02:53:00 PM »
Jamie, your example is a good one, one of the best holes in the world. You'd be hitting 3w, 2-3 iron on most days, the rest of us driver, 3w! Miss slighty right and carry is longer, miss slighty left and you end up on the beach. Back to middle pin is easiest play. For the avg 5-10 handicaper plays harder than the  5th at PV, the slight miss hit is still in play, althought 3 putting the 5th at PV is more likely.

Patrick_Mucci

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2001, 03:34:00 PM »
I would think that shorter penal holes are more fun than longer ones.  For the average golfer holes like the 8th at Pebble and 5th at PV, the 2nd at Wannamoisett, and the 16th at CP can't be fun, can they ?

I would think # 7 at Pebble with a good wind, # 2 at GCGC, # 18 at NGLA all fall into the penal yet fun category for all levels of golfers.  

I can't imagine many high handicaps clearing the gorge at PV's # 5.

What makes them fun ??


brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2001, 03:50:00 PM »
Patrick, I think you are right for the golfer that can't carry the ball 175-195, the 16th at CP and the 5th at PV aren't as good a short 4 as a long 3. The 9th at CP is another (with the bottom right pin) that fits this for the better golfer, yet is fun for all.

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2001, 03:51:00 PM »
Patrick, I think you are right for the golfer that can't carry the ball 175-195, the 16th at CP and the 5th at PV aren't as good a short 4 as a long 3. The 9th at CP is another (with the bottom right pin) that fits this for the better golfer, yet is fun for all.

Ed_Baker

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2001, 04:19:00 PM »
Patrick,

Nothin'wrong with Driver,7 iron,Wedge, and 1 putt 4 on #2 at Wannamoisett,its still fun!


John_Sheehan

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2001, 04:22:00 PM »
After looking over these lists, I think we need to first agree what is a penal hole. To my mind, a penal hole is one that offers no alternatives, no options, and demands that a shot be played a certain way, or to a certain area – no exceptions without penalty.  A strategic hole, on the other hand does offer alternative routes and strategies, that rewards the bold or heroic shot.

Of the holes listed that I have played, I would have to say that in my opinion neither #16 at Cypress, nor #8 at Pebble qualify as penal holes.  Both holes offer options to the forced carry approach.  As MacKenzie himself has pointed out, #16 has been played in match play, and WON with only a putter.  

I have seen #8 at Pebble referred to as penal in another thread also, again because of what is perceived to be a forced carry. I disagree; it is not only NOT penal, it is the essence of strategic design. The hole can be played completely over land, if one so chooses -- drive left, layup left, and approach to green over cavernous left bunker.  So in my definition neither of these holes qualify as a penal.

#15 at Cypress however has no alternative route, and I think this would qualify as a penal hole that is fun to play.  

To get back to Patrick’s original question as to why it is both fun and penal.  I think the main quality that raises a penal hole to the level of fun is that one of the shots must be thrilling, and there must be no alternative to that shot, no strategic options.  There must be an element of terror or fear of failure that is outweighed in reality by the ability of the golfer to physically perform.  MacKenzie said many times that he liked to create holes that were visually much more intimidating than they were in fact.  This provides the golfer with a tremendous sense of accomplishment, of having stared into the face of fear and not blinked.  A short carry like the one at #15 is a feat that most of us are capable of pulling off. But it can still be scary and thrilling as hell.

So to summarize, I think what allows a hole to be both penal and fun is
1) a sense of fear and intimidation to a shot, that is more psychological than physical; where there is no alternative to playing that shot,
2) the thrill of accomplishment that comes from the successful shot
3) in the case of forced carries, one that is short enough to allow us a real physical chance of accomplishing it.

I think #17 at TPC is a hole that walks a very fine line between being fun and being drudgingly penal.  Given the possibility of Florida winds, and no real bail out area, there must be times when the hole is just hell to play.  I don’t think I would want to play a hole like this at any length LONGER than what exists now.  I think it is right on the border.  However, for these very same reasons, it is a great hole for professional tournament play.

A thought that just occurred to me while writing this is, perhaps this is what makes a great strategic hole – one that walks a very fine line between being penal and strategic.  One that provides a thrilling sense of accomplishment, terrorizes us, and goads us into attempting the heroic shot, even when an alternative route exists.  Just a thought.



Ed_Baker

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2001, 05:01:00 PM »
John,

Your last paragraph sums up my thinking on "penal holes that are fun to play".There are options even if it is a drop area after missing a heroic attempt.Or "up and down from the marsh" on 17 at Sucession.

There are penal holes that some players could never finish under the rules of golf,those are not fun! In my opinion.


Patrick_Mucci

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2001, 05:31:00 PM »
John Sheehan,

Would the 8th at Troon fit your definition ?

The 8th at NGLA offers options, while at the same time being penal.

You may be right, but I think it may be a combination of the physical and mental challenge that creates the thrill.

The 9th at Yale, 6th at NGLA, 11th at The Creek seem to fit that mold.


ForkaB

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2001, 05:50:00 PM »
Patrick

The 8th at Troon is not penal fom the tee, but it is when you are trying to putt for birdie from the front right to a tight mid-left pin position.  I took 12 from there once without losing my ball.....


Aaron

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2001, 06:05:00 PM »
Penal holes give golfers the chance to pull off the miracle shot.

The bunker at PGA West, 90% of the time the ball will be back at your feet, but in the chance you make a great shot out, you would be very happy you hit into it.

Aaron


John_Sheehan

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2001, 06:12:00 PM »
Patrick,
I am going to have to do my homework before I answer your question, since I am a Muni boy and professional guest (ala, Tom H., my kindred spirit here on GCA) and have never played any of the holes you have mentioned.

Also, would you let me know which definition you are refering to (strictly penal, penal but fun, or great strategic hole?)?

I have an overhead of NGLA, but I don't really know the distances.  #8 NGLA looks to be a perfect example of a hole that is classically strategic, with multiple routes to attack the hole, and multiple defenses based upon the angle of attach. How long is the carry off the tee, to clear the road and reach the fairway?

From the overhead, #14 NGLA on the other hand (again depending upon the length of the carry required) appears to be penal, very penal. Is it also fun? It appears to be somewhat similar (Cape but reversed) to #5 Mid Ocean, which I have played. I think #5 MO fits the definition of a hole that is penal, but fun.  But again, because of the length of the tee shot, it really does walk a fine line. Even taking the shortest route across Mangrove Lake is frighteningly exhiliarating.

I would love to hear your descriptions of the other holes you have mentioned.  Meanwhile, I will read up on them myself; but as you know, it is not the same as having played them.

Ed Baker,
I still don't think that it fits the definition of a penal hole, if it allows an alternative route. Maybe I am totally misguided here, but I thought the definition of strategic was multiple options, multiple strategies that can be employed. Someone help us out here!


Matt_Ward

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2001, 09:48:00 PM »
The reason why people enjoy penal holes is the very reason that failure is almost a guaranteed certainty unless they hit the superb shot. The masochist impulse is clearly a part of the game of golf.

Many mid to high handicappers know full well that success is doubtful, but if they just hit that ONE shot it will make for the round, the trip, the vacation. Knowing the likelihood is a doubtful proposition makes the joy of accomplishment (if it ever occurs) that much more.

A good example is the old "jaws" hole at Stone Harbor GC in Cape May, NJ. The original hole was so beaten up by just about every golf critic (Ron Whitten, Tom Doak, et al) but mid to high handicappers absoluetly loved it. They knew they were likely to make a donation into the pond but it didn;t matter. This is the same mentality that makes the lotteries so compelling. You hear about the $$ and you think "what if."

Classic design, in my opinion, does not hold a place for courses that rely overwhelingly on the penal philosophy because when "sink" has more probability than "swim" you have a course that is close to impossible.

But for many one-time visitors to such courses as PGA West and other such holes / courses named THAT'S just fine. They want more difficulty because they are there just for that day or days. This is what provides the banter after each round because Joe what's his name was able to clear the bunker / water hazard, etc, etc, etc. It's certainly fun for the moment you are there, but if forced to handle the situation day in and day out many players would opt to play elsewhere.


Patrick_Mucci

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2001, 04:12:00 AM »
John Sheehan,

I don't know the exact distance to carry the road, but I would guess 150.  The bunkers are the problem off the tee.  And substantially elevated green with its surrounding bunkers the dilema on the second shot.  It is a wonderful hole that can be penal.

The 14th likewise.  I usually hit 3-iron to driver depending on how I feel I'm playing, the wind and the pin.  The ground is hog backed so the ground slopes and falls into bowls and bunkers, and the water comes into play for balls hit to the right.

John, if you ever get the chance to play National, no matter what, don't pass it up.
It is by far the most fun of any course I've played, yet challenging and extremely strategic.


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2001, 04:45:00 AM »
Not that it is a big deal but are some of us confusing penal holes with heroic holes.  I generally view penal holes as those with no option - do or die.  Heroic holes have options (safer routes) but the consequence of taking the safer route is a longer distance to the green, a more difficult angle of approach,...and a potentially higher score.  Strategic holes can at times be a combination of both.

ForkaB

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2001, 05:10:00 AM »
I personally find the distinctions between, "penal," "heroic" and "strategic" to be very fuzzy and do not find these "classifications" to be very useful in discussing the architecutral characteristics or merits of golf holes.  But, maybe that's just me....

ForkaB

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2001, 05:10:00 AM »
I personally find the distinctions between, "penal," "heroic" and "strategic" to be very fuzzy and do not find these "classifications" to be very useful in discussing the architecutral characteristics or merits of golf holes.  But, maybe that's just me....

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2001, 06:32:00 AM »
Rich:

While the concepts of "penal", "herioc" and "strategic" do get blurred at times when applied to certain holes, I'm surprised you don't find the concepts useful.

Pine Valley's #5 seems to me like a clear example of a penal golf hole.  The same could be said of the par 3 #14.

In both cases, it is "do or die".

Pine Valley's #13, by contrast, is considered strategic because of the option a player has to either go directly for the green or play more safely to the right.

I see the 8th hole at Pebble Beach as part strategic (one can play safely to the left of the green), but surely "herioc" as well if one has a go directly at the green.

I find the concepts useful when I'm playing.  If the hole is clearly "penal", than I try to just accept that and make my best effort.  In short, I know I can't think or manage my way around the problem presented. I MUST execute a particular shot.

However, if a hole is "strategic", my ability to think clearly comes into play: what are my options? how likely am I to pull off the shot? what is the penalty for failing? how much will I be rewarded? Etc.

Tim Weiman

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2001, 06:42:00 AM »
Tim,
Ditto!
Mark

ForkaB

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2001, 07:16:00 AM »
Tim and Mark

Have you ever played the 8th at Pebble Beach and NOT gone for the green over the chasm?  Even if it meant laying up with a wedge after a duffed drive?  Has anybody?

I hear what you and Mark are saying about the 5th at PV (and the 15th at CP and the 11th at Troon, etc., etc.), but "forced carry" on ONE of the shots on the hole seems to be far more descriptive than "penal" which assumes that once you have cleared the hazard you are somehow "out of jail."

Of course I'm on record as saying that all holes are "strategic", and such a definition is trivial, but I've just studied and taught strategy for 25+ years, and played often very competent and even strategic golf for a longer period of time, so what do I know.......?

A.  Enough to know that I still have a lot to learn.

Rich


rj struthers

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2001, 04:46:00 PM »
penal and fun! Although the whole experience at Pine Valley is fun, I would consider #8 a better example of this genre. Many a bad player has made a birdie or par on #8, far more so than five. Yet #8 can be very penal, if ou hit in the bunkers!