The Kingsley Club Profile Is Posted

[John Morrissett]

The Kingsley Club near Traverse City, MI will appeal to many participants of this DG: interesting property (including a nearly treeless front nine), very little earth movement (leaving many of the original features to dominate (e.g., the 13th green, the ski-slope hill in the 17th fairway, etc.)), tremendous green sites (in terms of both quality and variety), and artistic/classic bunkering.  Mike DeVries is defintely one to follow, as the Kingsley Club is awfully impressive as his solo debut.

[Tim_Weiman]

John:

Thanks for doing the profile on Kingsley.

Our group enjoyed the tour Mike DeVries did for us last fall. I especially liked the bunker work, so much so that I need to go back before too long and see the rest of the course.

[Ran Morrissett]

Brother,

You use the word 'rugged' to describe the property at both The Kingsley Club and Inniscrone. Are there other similarities between the two apart from the large scale/wild appearance of their bunkers?

Does the 15th hole generally play downwind? How many sq.ft. is that green? It looks tiny! In difficulty, the green reminds me of trying to hold the 13th at Prestwick.

Will the severity of the 2nd hole keep play from getting away smoothly?

Isn't the goal here to keep the greens under 10 on the stimp, given the green undulations?  

The course looks too good (!) to be true - does it border on being too severe when you combine the wind, rough and wild topo?

Cheers,

[JDL]

Ran, I have been a member for over a year and I can give you a few thouhts:

I walk the course.  Most ride.  It is a great work out and it was designed to be walked.  Rugged may be a bit over stated but it is taxing.  I feel it the next day after walking 27.  

The 15th plays to the northwest which is almost always into the prevailing wind (and up hill too).  It is one tough hole.  I par it about 25% of the time.  I have only hit the green in "regulation" twice, interestingly by bouncing it on from about 185-190yds.  A longer carry into the 4 foot hill that protects green kills the ball and it rolls back.  An approach that lands on the green with a long iron generally runs back into the bunker.  I have seen better players hold the green. In the course review it is stated that a 5 is generally the worst you will card, but the fun begins when one happens to hit it into the trees that protect the last 100yds of the fairway and tight to the right of the green.  This is not uncommon for many of us that are hitting to this small green from 180-210 yds away.  I love the challenge on this hole and many options for pitching to some very difficult pin placements.  I don't know the exact size but it is small in comparison to the others on the course.  

You asked about the play at the second hole.  It can create slow play issues if the group has a lot of testosterone. If the green is missed then one must play to a safe area (fat part of the green, or front landing area) regardless of where the pin is or (speaking from experience) you will play ping pong.  With only 250 members planned we have not had a slow play issue.

All of the greens are in perfect condition. Dan Lucas has done a great job.  My understanding is that the greens are not to stimp above 8-9 because as you observe they would be nearly unplayable.  There are incredible options on these greens for playing safe but it does take some imagination.  

In my opinion the course is as you query "too good to be true".  I joined almost immediately after playing the front nine (and the back was just growing in).  The fairways are wide so the key is getting a good angle to the green to put the ball in the right spot to avoid a three putt.  This is a great match play course!  

I am curious about John's use of the word "controversy" in description of #9.  I love this hole and would be interested to hear more about the controversy.  It is not too bad once you realize that the front left bunkers ( there are 3 of them as viewed from the south) are the safe landing area with a relatively easy 4 and good odds at a 3.  Anything long and over the green usually results in a shot that ends up in the front bunkers.

There are several holes where the best play is the run on.  The best of which are both the par 3s; the fifth and the "redan" sixteenth.  It is great feeling to see the ball disappear behind the guarding front mounds only to see them reappear on the green after what is an apparent eternity of about 2-3 seconds.  

[Matt_Ward]

Had the opportunity to play Arcadia Bluffs and The Kingsley Club during my recent trek to northwest Michigan. Was told about The Kingsley before leaving and did not have much to go on except the comments from a guy who I have the highest respect for in reviewing courses.

I enjoyed Arcadia Bluffs immednsely, but The Kingsley Club is a must play. You will NEVER be bored at The Kingsley. The shifting winds, the glorious differences between the front and back nines and the devilish / fun greens and bunkers all make for a wonderful course. Hats off to Mike DeVries.

There has been discussion about the 15th and I say the hole is clearly a bear, but with two superb shots you can achieve success. Ditto the short but sinister 9th. Played downwind and you must hit an absolute uncanny approach. This is not a hole to use the hard cover ball without a doubt.

Also loved the gambling 7th hole with its tempting narrow fairway. Go longer and the drive had best be pured! Also love the combination of holes #12 and #13. One is long / tight and the other possesses a green more vexing than any I have ever faced.

The Kingsley requires careful thought off the tee for the proper angle of approach. Once you get on the course it's no less than what a child feels like when he / she enters Toys R Us at Xmas time!!! A gem and one I hope to return to soon.

P.S. Much is made of green speeds. I credit the club with keeping things in perspective and not permitting speeds to run beyond what is clearly reasonable. Kudos to Dan Lucas and the staff for the firm and fast turf conditions. The Kingsley Club is what golf needs more of and is a design that many architects, developers should visit to really understand what quality and fine detail is about and how it can be achieved.
I envy the membership ...

[John Morrissett]

JDL--

Thanks for the comments.

I mentioned that the 9th is "controversial" because Mike said that hole and the 15th had generated the most comments.  While I think the 9th is a fine hole from the western (shorter) tee, I do think it is better when played from the south (mainly because of the variety it would give to the one-shotters).  The western tee is a terrific example of requiring discipline from the player.  When the hole is all the way on the right, the best play is probably to play to the left corner of the green, where the slope will help stop the ball (or, as JDL writes, into the front bunkers).  It's hard to aim 50 feet left of the hole with a wedge in hand!  Still, I saw a 15-handicapper knock it to two feet from that tee to that hole location (and with a decent wind helping), so a 2 is certainly not out of the question.  In fact, that's what makes the hole so good for match play.

Part of the fun of the 15th is that it is labeled a "par 4," making most players feel they are supposed to hit the green in two.  That resulting frustration can lead to higher scores than if it were called a "par 5," showing how silly the notion of par is -- that the number on a piece of paper can affect how a player will approach a hole.  If it were called a par 5, players would not mind the tiny green, as that seems appropriate for a reachable "5."

Ran--

The course can play very difficult with a good wind.  While the proximity makes it an easy comparison, the course does have much in common with Crystal Downs in that regard: open front nine with a more wooded back nine; difficult rough, undulating greens; and good bunkering, often with high rough around the edges.  Neither course relies on length for its challenge.

[Mike_DeVries]

John,

Thanks for the great write-up -- I think you have captured what the club is about very thoughtfully.

Ran,

The 15th green is the smallest on the course at less than 3700 sq. ft.  It plays, as stated above, uphill and either with the wind (60%) or against it (35%) -- but it is in a valley leading up to the green and flanked at points by trees, so the wind may appear to be against you more than it really is.

Glad to hear everyone is enjoying the course.

[Nick_Christopher]

One hole at Kingsley that I haven't heard much discussion about yet is #3.  I think it is a great strategic par 4.  The drive has to be properly placed to avoid not only the deep bunkers along the right side, but also the huge bowls in the fairway that can make for awkward stances.  The best placement depends on the pin position.  A pin placed back and right favors a drive to the left hand side of the fairway followed with a low chaser to the back of the green.  If the pin is up front and to the left, a player may try to attack it straight on.  The pair of deep bunkers guards the right hand side as well, but allows for a risky run up shot between them, which can also be a good option if you are short and right of the green on your second shot.  

A great write-up John.  You have captured much of what I have enjoyed about the course over the past year, and hope that many others on this board get up north to experience it as well.  

[Mike Ventola]

The front 9 was so good to me that the back left me longing to play the front again?
The eclectic nature of the two 9’s took a lot away from my opinion of the golf course as a whole?  I do love that 2nd hole even though I made an 8!  

[Will E]

We played the Kingsley club after a practice round at the Bear for the MI Open.  
Anyone who plays the Bear needs to go to The Kingsley club to remember what golf is really like.
This is one "hidden" course for sure, call for directions. Once you get there it is quite a treat.
The comparisons to Crystal Downs are fair. The bunkering and the use of the land are stunning.
Like CD, KC's best defense is its greens, and fairway slopes.
After hitting good drives on #4 it was a bummer to have to search for our balls (who said golf was fair). It did give the owner a good laugh though, as he was on #7 giving us some good natured grief. Thanks for letting us play Ed. That is another thing I like about this place, on the front nine you can talk smack to just about anyone on the side!
Another questionable fairway was #7, I'm not sure that I'd want to keep the pines on the left, they are in play and I feel are out of place. I'll come back with my chainsaw.
Of all of the holes on the front our favorite was #8. A great risk reward tee shot with a flat fairway (finally). Hit it right and you'll have a blind second.
We all thought #9 was cool. (I can't think of a better word for this hole)
Sorry, I didn't mean to go into a play by play of our day.
Love #13, need to play #12 more to find the right line.
#15 is the toughest par 4 around, not sure about the wall in front of the green (I'd call it a slope, but it's more of a wall)
I wouldn't call #16 a true Redan as you can shank it right and OJ it.
This is a great setting and a super design. We really like what Mike has done and are happy that our friend Bob Pillard is here. They are lucky to have the Pill, he is one of the best professionals we know.
Pilgirm's Run is more traditional and is an excellent work as well, if you like Kingsley make sure you see PR and Black Forest.

As I've written before we also played High Pointe and were really let down. Perhaps if HP played the way KC does we would have though otherwise.

[JDL]

John, I can’t help but telling you my favorite way to play to the very difficult right pin placement on angle iron shaped ninth hole from the west tee.  My wedge is not accurate enough nor can I hit it high enough to take the direct route and hold the green.  I’ve seen it done many times but I play what our Club Pro calls the Indy 500 shot.  I fly a punch 7 iron about 100 yards short of and to the left side of the green.  The ball climbs the hill into the first cut, makes a 90-degree right turn then races down about thirty yards to the lower tier.  This is a great way to play the hole in the wind and it is a great crowd pleaser.

By the way playing a wedge to the “safe” front left lower tier and putting around the corner is a real tricky shot.  I cannot tell you how many times I have seen the ball putted off the green taking that route.  With practice it can be done.  

I also like the south tees best and the women's south tee is one of the most impressive on the course. Just don't loose it right.

[John Lyon]

Nick, I too agree that #3 is one of the best strategic holes on the course.  I cannot help but read Steve Wilson's thread on Redans.... when the group asks if a par 4 could utilize the redan or reverse redan concept I think of this hole for the right pin placements.  No the green is not elevated much nor is it sloped from back to front but anytime I have hit a mid iron into that pin position it runs off the back. Playing a low run up into the contour and letting the slop of the ridge through the green sling the ball to the right really is a fun shot.  The run up between the bunkers is a very low percentage shot unless you are in the swail 100 yds or less away.  This green must be 9000 sq ft and has 3 unique pin placements that take 3 different approaches.  Great hole.

[Jim Reilly]

I walked the back and played a few holes on the front during construction in October of 2000.  When you mention the Kingsley Club, my first thought is of the back 9.  Holes 12, 13, 15, 17 and 18 have a habit of infiltrating my mind and imaging how they would receive different shots.  

I'm curious how 17 plays.  Do most players reach the precipice?  What, if anything is the reward for such a drive?  Do the balls roll all the way to the bottom or is the grass maintained longer and hang them on the double black diamond slope?

How does 18 play?  Is it more of a drive hole or approach hole?  Which requires more precision?

How does 13th play?  Is par a good score there or is there a reasonable oportunity to get one back?

 

[Nick_Christopher]

Jim,

In my experience the top of the hill on the 17th is a long accurate carry to reach the downslope.  Because I haven't been able to control my driver for sh**, I've often opted to hit 3 wood there and settle for reaching the green in 3 shots with a blind second shot.  It still is a lot of fun to run after you ball to see where it lands up ahead.

# 18 requires great precision, and it isn't a bad play to be short in the fairway, or try to run back to the pin.

# 13 is one of my favorite holes on the course because it provides so many options.  It is possible to make 3 here, especially with the pin up front, and if you are able to keep your shot on the top shelf.  

[John Lyon]

Jim, I pretty much agree with Nick's comments above.  If you can chase the ball to the bottom of 17 then you are left with a difficult 190 yd shot.  The slope at 190yds, while not severe, is down hill enough to make the required up hill shot (50 ft? of elevation) near impossible (for me).  The green does not hold long irons well; the best one can do is run through the green with a tricky up and down.  In my opinion, the better 2 shot option is to reach the precipice (230 to the green) and then attempt to hit a fairway wood.   The real reward for reaching the precipice is that the fairway is at its widest and the very penal fairway bunkers are almost out of play.  

I have seen and experienced very big numbers on 13 as well as several birdies.  The easiest way to birdie is to play to the extreme right side of the fairway (to as near a lost ball as possible).  The resulting short pitch (30-50 yds) is well received from this angle to nearly anywhere on the green (except to the back pin placement where there is no good way to approach).    The approach from the center or left on the fairway requires great touch to get it near the hole and if you happen to hit the down slope in the center of the green, then you can almost count on your ball rolling off.  

The 18th green makes this a fun hole.  The green depth (with a good drive) makes this shot anything from a 135 to a 170 yd shot into a narrow green.   Many shots that approach the green from the safer flatter right side of the fairway hit the green and run through into he left greenside bunker.  The way to the center and back placements is to skirt or go over the dangerous right front bunker, which is mentally tough to do.  

[Jim Reilly]

Wow, NOTE to other architects:  players on your courses should have this much to think about as well.

The 17th reminds me of the 12th at the Addington.  It's the number on the card at the Addington that creates a lot of controversy and the great part about the hole is that even if you choose to leave your tee shot on top of the hill, you still have a bunch of choices (e.g. go for the green with a fairway wood; use a more lofted fairway wood or long iron to leave it just short of the green for an easy chip, while avoiding the greenside hazards; or simply lay up to the bottom of the hill where you would likely have a blind approach, but with a wedge or short iron).  Sounds like a great match play hole.  

It also sounds like you guys have a vintage that will age well.  With all the options you guys are considering, the course is sure to hold your interests as your games improve and decline with the vagaries of time (and equipment advances! :-)).