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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why does an individual build a golf course?
« on: September 14, 2001, 06:52:00 PM »
Sometimes it is because he (or she) is disenchanted with the way the local club is run.

Other times it is because he has a stack of money and wants to build a monument to himself.

Other times it could be because he thinks he can make money on the deal.

And there are plenty of other reasons too, I'm sure.

However, my real question is this: how many times has an individual built a course because he has found land that is so outrageously well suited for a golf course, that he feels compelled to pursue it? Rightly or wrongly, this is my perception of how Sand Hills GC was started and perhaps there is a lesson in there somewhere worth discussing.

Cheers,


Patrick_Mucci

Why does an individual build a golf course?
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2001, 06:57:00 PM »
Ran,

I don't think finding perfect land comes first.

I think there has to be an interest within the individual to create something special.

Finding the right land is either great luck, or skillful navigation or the real estate and environmental obstacles.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why does an individual build a golf course?
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2001, 07:38:00 PM »
Darn it Ran, you pose a question that shakes me right down to my core.  Some years ago I approached a golf course (semi-private club) homesite project with some of the more profit oriented, and egotistical attitudes that you present.  That was way ahead of a learning curve I think I have undergone about what characteristics would go into a truly worthy, well designed course of enduring quality based on the traditions and ideals of the great fields of play.  While I don't think I know so very much now, I have made great advancement from my knowledge base then.  Albeit the course design we were attempting then wasn't all that bad.  But, one thing I had in mind then was some advice from a smart golf course club owner hereabouts that told me that if I succeeded in that project, "not to marry the whore".  I was in that mode of thinking I might cut a fat hog in the ass then.

Now, I have seen land that is ideal in many aspects.  I understand design and construction principles better.  I have a better grasp of design goals through association with some very smart people who have made a life's passion about appreciating great golf design and have played around the world at all the greatests courses.  They have taught me much - most of them are here.

When I first attempted to get into a project, Sand Hills did not exist.  Between the ending of the failed project in 1992-3, and today, I have seen Sand Hills a few times, and many more great courses of seminal design ideals.  I have actively looked for a great property to perhaps try again.  I am confident that I found that great other property.  But, there are problems.  First, it is near Sand Hills.  I believe that I could almost have the contruction team from Sand Hills build a course there that would be aesthetically indistiguishable in many aspects from Sand Hills.  That designer and I strongly agree that such a copy cat idea is completely wrong headed and diminishes the greatness of the original.  Also, I can find some high risk market aspects to the project that I can not personally afford to take on alone, at my age and future employment prospects status.

But, to settle in on the question, I would now only do it because the land and resources are so outrageously suited for a great design, as you say.  However, I must add for Patrick, that in this case, there is so much land in the Sand Hills that is outrageously suited for great design, that one has to take into consideration those other practical aspects like proximity to markets, viability due to competition, and guarding against copycatting something already there that is great and dilluting why it is special.  

That is just my opinon, I could be Mucci  

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

ForkaB

Why does an individual build a golf course?
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2001, 07:52:00 PM »
Dick

There is an old (and generally true) adage that the best place to build a restaurant is across the street from a successful restaurant.  And, if you and your designer's ideas were universal, Troon and St. Andrews-New and NGLA and Cypress Point and Pacific Dunes, etc. etc. would never have been built.

Go for it.


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why does an individual build a golf course?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2001, 08:03:00 AM »
thanks Rich, I really appreciate the encouragement that you and several others keep giving me.  I am very humbled that you and those others, many whom you know, understand my anguishing about this.  

But, I have to ask, if I don't cut the cookie on this thing for those risk factors that I mention above, do you know anyone that would gainfully employ a washed up over the hill retired ex-cop with a History degree greatly diluted in academic value by Viet Nam era riot shennanigans from the "peoples republic university of Wisconsin" that wasn't worth the price of a loaf of bread anyway?

That is just my opinion, I could be wealthy  

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Matt Vandelac

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why does an individual build a golf course?
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2001, 08:27:00 AM »
I think that you are right to be excited about the promise of another course in the sand hills.  Hundreds of miles of perfect land for golf.  Other than no people for hundreds of miles, it's great.  Without a plan to fund it, it's a pipe dream.  Ever thought about finding a local tribe interested in golf?  They have land & our $....what I really wanted to say about "why" build a golf course, I hope that the future brings golf courses with solid design principles in mind.  A majority of courses built since 1930 have strayed dramatically from the old classics.  I hope that the future brings elements of design that stand the test of time.  Refer to a pasture in St. Andrews if you think that 'perfect site' is what is needed.  If many of the top architects knew that greens comittees were plastering trees across their work to make the 'perfect' site, they would roll over.  Give a solid architect some sandy soils and a dozer and they will build a golf course to rival the best.  
thanks

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why does an individual build a golf course?
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2001, 09:01:00 PM »
Fulfilling one's dreams.
"chief sherpa"

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why does an individual build a golf course?
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2001, 06:35:00 AM »
It is my understanding that Ernest Jones built the Golf Club in New Albany, OH because he got tired of playing in crowded conditions (reportedly behind a bunch of inebriated women) at Scioto and Columbus CC.  In my opinion, the site he selected was very average, though Pete Dye's work there made it into an outstanding golf course.

My dream (currently on hold) of building a golf course never included an outstanding site, primarily because the cost would be prohibitive.  My thinking was much more modest. I wanted to build a golf course with strategic merit that would also be enjoyable and affordable for the masses; a course that could be set up for a local scratch tournament or for a church league.  I wanted to create an environment somewhere in between the CCFAD and the overcrowded, government operated facility.  Operational efficiencies and financial viability were also high on my list.    


aclayman

Why does an individual build a golf course?
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2001, 07:18:00 AM »
I wonder if all worthy causes go thru a similar painstaking process, as much as building a golf course, does?
I site Jeremy Glenn's recent addition to his "diary of a golf course" section TRANSITION, as being as close to thowing in the towel as I have heard. After all the expectations and hard work you go back to square one and dream on...

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why does an individual build a golf course?
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2001, 12:36:00 PM »
Ran,

Actually, there is a project underway near Cleveland that may fit your description.

The developer first thought about a real estate project, but when he examined the entire property he came to the conclusion that the property really ought to be a golf course.

Having made one site visit, I think golfers in the area will agree.  Look for a write up sometime in the next couple weeks when I have time to make a more thorough inspection.

Tim Weiman

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why does an individual build a golf course?
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2001, 12:48:00 PM »
I'm hoping another fellow (Paul Hermsmeyer)with access to what has been described to me as unbelievably good land for a great golf course will chime in on this.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why does an individual build a golf course?
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2001, 02:00:00 PM »
Tim -

I'd love to check out the site sometime if possible - I'm only a short drive away. Please email me if you need company on a visit. :-)  sunflowr@usaor.net

Dick -

You can always come print t shirts with me! We've even been known to print t's at night in order to get in a round during the day.

Is there anyone on this site that wouldn't LEAP at the opportunity to be involved with building a new course(personal circumstances permitting, of course)? I almost closed up shop for a couple months last year when Tom Doak was looking for a few good men to help finish Pac Dunes. If I didn't have employees, I probably would have.

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Paul_Hermsmeyer

Why does an individual build a golf course?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2001, 06:40:00 PM »
RJ!  Good to hear from you.  I hope your trip out west was well.  My trip east was fantastic.  Friar's Head is truly unbelievable.  Wow!!  As far as building a course on our land . . . the first reason would be my love for the game of golf itself.  I've been associated with the game since I was 5 years-old.  The next reason would probably be the dream.  I've worked as a golf course superintendent for 15 years, and like any superintendent I've had continuous thought of building and owning a great course one day.  I had the excellent good fortune to become acquainted with Dan Proctor and Dave Axland which fueled the fire.  I always thought my land would make fabulous golf. When Dan and Dave confirmed this my dream suddenly felt possible.  Somebody that knows said the land had merit!  That was a very important day for me.  It gave my ideas some validity because the land being really good was of utmost importantce to me. Another reason is the land itself.  The land has been in the Hermsmeyer family for 125 years. Ranching has always taken place on it. Based upon its location it could be utilized for grazing for another 125 years . . . or with minimal effort it could be transformed into a traditional and challenging, fun golf course for humanity to enjoy for decades.  I'm kinda taken with the latter. The way it looks to me is Hand Up Cows Ass or Golf Course!!  You make the choice.  Pauley

Paul_Hermsmeyer

Why does an individual build a golf course?
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2001, 06:43:00 PM »
RJ!  Good to hear from you.  I hope your trip out west was well.  My trip east was fantastic.  Friar's Head is truly unbelievable.  Wow!!  As far as building a course on our land . . . the first reason would be my love for the game of golf itself.  I've been associated with the game since I was 5 years-old.  The next reason would probably be the dream.  I've worked as a golf course superintendent for 15 years, and like any superintendent I've had continuous thought of building and owning a great course one day.  I had the excellent good fortune to become acquainted with Dan Proctor and Dave Axland which fueled the fire.  I always thought my land would make fabulous golf. When Dan and Dave confirmed this my dream suddenly felt possible.  Somebody that knows said the land had merit!  That was a very important day for me.  It gave my ideas some validity because the land being really good was of utmost importantce to me. Another reason is the land itself.  The land has been in the Hermsmeyer family for 125 years. Ranching has always taken place on it. Based upon its location it could be utilized for grazing for another 125 years . . . or with minimal effort it could be transformed into a traditional and challenging, fun golf course for humanity to enjoy for decades.  I'm kinda taken with the latter. The way it looks to me is Hand Up Cows Ass or Golf Course!!  You make the choice.  Pauley

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why does an individual build a golf course?
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2006, 11:51:01 PM »
bump
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why does an individual build a golf course?
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2006, 12:02:33 AM »
Nice bump. Wild Horse in the formative years. What was done at FH at that point in time?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why does an individual build a golf course?
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2006, 12:15:02 AM »
But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong

Whatever happened to that guy? I miss him. ;D
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 12:15:26 AM by Tony Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!