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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2001, 07:10:00 AM »
GeoffreyC,
No one is every right or wrong (though we all might think otherwise).  And unless we played the course again together, we'll probably always have some debate which is fine.  

I just didn't view many of the things that you and Bill pointed out the same way.  Part of that might be because of our definition of fairness.  I'm not hung up on that and golf holes to me don't have to be clear in their strategy and straightford in their design.  I've hit what I thought were perfect shots at Pine Valley only to end of 10 feet off the green with an unplayable lie due to tree limbs or bushes in my way.  Is that fair, you tell me.  

RD demands golf shots of all kinds and at times the margin of error can be very slim.  I can't think of too many good courses where that is not the case.  There are plenty of tees so if distance is an issue a golfer has lots of choices.  Different angles are also offered by different sets of tees.  Some of the tees are very demanding but demanding is a "relative" term.  It's a fun yet testing course to play and judging from the members I spoke to, everyone was thrilled with the place.  

Are there too many trees in certain areas, sure there are.  But as one of the guys in the shop said, they come down quickly but it takes a long time to grow them up.  Ed is still sorting things out.

Are there some questionable holes out there, yes, but not that many.  And the ones that are questionable can easily be modified and most likely will.  Think about it, there are no holes out there where you hit a pitch shot, walk down a hill to find your ball and then walk back up the same hill to the next tee??  Those kind can't be fixed very easily.  

You're Doak numbers on those other courses are nearly idendical to mine.  But this one we are way apart.  I think it's the fairness thing.
Mark  


BillV

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2001, 07:27:00 AM »
One last thought

We should be rating what is there, not what it could be.

Full of interesting things, YES!  Very uneven is what it is, too.

I do not discourage anyone from playing it, I will be very interested to play it again if some changes are made.  Right now, it is very very uneven.


GeoffreyC

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2001, 07:51:00 AM »
Mark- I never said anything about fairness. I don't mind blind shots at all (I love every last one at Yale) nor some perceived unfair bad breaks. I thought it a poor first shot course and really disjointed once on the greens. Again, I encourage people to see it and marvel at some of the bold features, bunkering and mounding. I think a little less would yield a better result. As an example, the greens at Yale are large, bold and feature swales and large elevation changes but they all tie in to the rest of the hole.  Even on the 10th, there is a logical way to get from the upper right hand tier to the lower right tier down the 5 foot drop. Ran discovered it with his great eye for detail. The most of the greens at Running Deer don't fit in like those at Yale.

Do you think Running Deer is currently as good a course as Hamilton Farm? Better than Ballyowen? Better than Royce Brook West? As good as Ocean Forest?

For other modern courses in the NY/NJ area, I certainly prefer RD to Centenial (doak 3) and Mansion Ridge (doak 4) just to name a couple.


Matt_Ward

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2001, 08:45:00 PM »
GeoffreyC:

As someone who observes the Jersey golf scene as much as anyone in the country let me say that RD is an example of a course that offers an array of interesting holes far beyond the pitter-patter boredom of courses we see today.

You guys amaze me when too often on GCA there are people whining about the lack of imagination and the inability of modern designers to "push the envelope." Wake up gentleman -- RD does push the envelope! Is it perfect? Certainly no.

I think too many people are too wedded to classic designs by the "old time master designers" and as a result grade out harshly new designs. Take a course with the last name of Raynor and Ross and just about all of the GCA contributors will wax on and on that it must be the best thing since slice bread was created.

In the Garden State I view RD as being one of the finest golf courses in South Jersey. Clearly, I would rate the following ahead of it from that area:

Pine Valley
Galloway National
ACCC

Then there are courses where the differences are very tight and would require additional thoughts. They include:

Twisted Dune
Blue Heron Pines / East
Medford Village (the old Sunny Jim's)
Pine Hill

Below RD I would include:

Marriott Seaview / Pines
Sand Barrens (any combination)
Little Mill
Ballamoor

RD is in my mind better than Royce Brook West or East simply because Carman didn't overload the course with a plethora of bunkers as Smyers did. I like a number of holes at Royce Brook but RD has more to offer.

I can't comment about Ocean Forest because I have not played it. One of the few Rees Jones courses I've never played. I agree that Hamilton Farm is a better overall test, but the differences with RD is slight. Hamilton Farm is blessed with a topnotch site and I hope people aren't including a grade because HF has all the amenities and goodies.

As far as Ballyowen is concerned I see RD as being moe strategically demanding and offering a wider range of differences in the holes. Ballyowen needs to return to more of its commitment to links style golf. It's been drifting more to refined country club style. That's why it dropped from our ratings at Jersey Golfer's best public from #1 in 1998 to #3 in 2000.

I urge people to read Ron Whitten's assessment of Ballyowen on his GD Web site.

FYI -- keep in mind Ballyowen is making new changes to the course. There is a new back tee on the already challenging 7th hole. More is in store there.

I agree 7 is a bit high for RD, but anything below 5 is really sticking it to the course. Mark Fine is more closer to what I think is about right -- somewhere between 6.5 and 7.

GeoffreyC thanks for including your grades on other local courses. What about others in South Jersey (don't need #'s for PV)??? Understanding how people grade out other courses gives me critical insight if people are consistent in their numbers.

Thanks ...

mw

P.S. BillV: Look forward to future discussions over a cold beer.


GeoffreyC

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2001, 09:09:00 AM »
Matt- don't you want to have a beer with me too?  

I agree with much of what you say especially about pushing the envelope vs. plain vanella designs.  However I ask you honestly here to answer my question about a little less here yielding a better product.

I think that currently there is a huge use of trees as strategic 3-dimentional hazards and that's simply not something I like to see. I didn't like the blind water hazard right over what would appear to be the favored bold line off the tee on 11.  The rest of the hole was really fine other than that.  I'll just layup short to the outside of the dogleg next time.  There seems to me to be too much of that at Running Deer however.  What about the tree right at the bottom of the collection area JUST off the green on 16.  Instead of generalities about "fairness" or insulting by basically saying we're not objective and we'd like it if it were by Raynor, Ross or Hanse (good company to keep Gil   ) please address the specific objections raised by Bill and me!

I made a suggestion for the 18th hole. What do you think about it? Is that tee shot currently reasonable?

As I said, the Doak scale is very specific and I think I am addressing it objectively here without giving brownie points.

Thanks-


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2001, 09:43:00 AM »
I think we chalk this one up as we agree to disagree.  In a sense this is like some of Mike Strantz's designs (most of which I happen to like quite a bit).  I think Tobacco Road and Royal New Kent for example, are excellent efforts, while others diss them completely.  

I do agree with Matt in that many here often complain about the "same old same old" designs then something comes out that is unique and we nix it.  

I honestly believe that "who the architect is" has too much too do with "the credibility" we give a design.  If RD was a Rees Jones design vs. a Tom Doak design vs. Ed Carman design the reviews would all be different.  


GeoffreyC

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2001, 09:52:00 AM »
Mark

Please, lets not leave it as it stands.  No one said they didn't like it or nixed it.  I don't like Centenial at all.  I don't like Mansion Ridge.  Both Bill and I raised a few SPECIFIC OBJECTIONS on individual holes.

Rather than just insulting our objectivity by talking about other architects please answer the SPECIFIC points raised about Running Deer.


GeoffreyC

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2001, 10:14:00 AM »
Mark

You state "Don't get me wrong, it's not perfect (#9 for example needs work) and there might be a few too many bunkers but this is a course with potential."

1- I agree with this statement completely

2- I ask you how many other courses on your vast list get Doak 7's where you also say "this is a course with potential"? Aren't courses where you hand out 7's MORE than just ones with potential?

If you have your Confidential Guide handy please give what Tom says is a 7.  I gave out the 4, 5, and 6 definitions above along with my objective reason why I currently think it falls between 4 and 5.  Why SPECIFICALLY do you think Running Deer is a Doak 7?  I think your giving too many brownie points just for effort and boldness.


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2001, 10:45:00 AM »
Geoffrey,
I told you, I didn't have the same level of concern as you did on many of the issues you raised.  Yes there were trees where I would not have had trees but I didn't downgrade the place as much for that as you seemed to.  

I thought the green complexes were excellent and "not wild just to be wild".  It was a breath of fresh air compared to many of the new designs being built that I see around the country.  You know the saying many of todays architects use, "due to the demand for very fast putting surfaces, we can't use dramatic contours and the greens must be designed flatter".  Ed Carman said screw that, we're putting in the contours and keeping the green speeds reasonable.  I had great fun playing all different kinds of bump and run shots into them.  You had to use your immagination for a change and I don't see that over here that often.  Reminded me of shots I have to play in the British Isles.  

Were there places on the greens where you were in trouble depending on the pin location, yes there were - too bad for hitting your golf ball in the wrong position.  It's like being on the top of the green on #16 at Augusta and the pin in down below.  I contend you are "not on the green" you are in a hazard!  I had the same problem at Lehigh in our Mem/Mem tourney.  I was on the front of the green on #9 and the pin was straight across from me in the back.  I was dead and could have stood there all day and not gotten it closer than 15 feet.  I actually thought about chipping.  Bottomline is that I can't think of one green that I'd consider over the top at RD.  

The pond on #11 didn't bother me one bit.  It's only blind once and there is plenty of width on the golf course to play on most holes.  I never felt claustrophobic.  

Yes there were some problem holes as I have said numerous times but only a few.  The  finishing par five is the one I had the biggest problem with and I've heard rumors that they are already considering changes.  Maybe someone closer to the project could chime in on this?

Please don't take any of this personal as it is not meant to be.  We just see things differently on this one.  It's like the two long par threes at Lehigh - you see them as drop shot 220 yarders and I see them as two completely different holes.  #3 is only barely downhill and plays the full yardage (a 5W for me from the tips if I try to carry it on the green).  However, you can run the ball on with a long iron or play a wide array of golf shots into that green.  Furthermore, the hazard value of the bunkers changes dramatically depending on the pin position (ask Mike Cirba about his bunker shot   ).   #7 on the other hand has the 80 foot drop and is only a 5I or so and the shot must be carried in the air to the hole.  You have to be concerned about the wind coming through the valley.

Again I feel there is a lot of creativity at RD, far more than I see at most new courses.  And I disagree that RD is a collection of holes (#3 is the only one so different than the rest).  There is a consistent theme running through the entire place.  
Mark


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2001, 10:53:00 AM »
Geoffrey,
Just saw your second post.  A 6 - A very good course definitely worth a game if you're in town but not necessarily worth a special trip to see.  It shouldn't disappoint you.  RD easily meets this criteria and will only disappoint you if you are expecting to see the next challenger to Pine Valley.
 
A 7 - An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles (I call that 2 hours).  You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning, and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.  

I think Running Deer clearly falls somewhere in between these two descriptions.  As I said, a solid 6-7!
Mark


Matt_Ward

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2001, 11:18:00 AM »
GeoffreyC:

I'll have a beer with you anytime!!!

My remarks are not meant to be personal and if you thought they are I apoligize.

RD specfics:

Love the tee shot on #18. Is it tight? Yes it is! Does it favor a slight fade to fit it between the bunkers. Yes, it does. What would you expect on a long par-4 finisher.

Check out how fair the 18th at Oakland Hills is? Ditto Oak Hill?

Agree with Mark Fine on the water at #11. You have room to the left -- short hitters should use it or lose the ball. Simple as that. No one says you have to take the more aggressive line of play.

Mark is right about the greens. You don't have the mach 3 speeds you see at other courses. Ed did provide for contours and they are appropriate.

I love the mound that protects the front of the 2nd green! Also, how about the unique shape of the 3rd green.

Geoffrey and BillV, I agree about the par-5's. They're not anything to speak about. I reached all of them in two blows and didn't have much concern for accuracy. The 9th particularly needs plenty of adjustments.

But once again, there is too much focus from those on GCA about "classic designs" and whether "Raynor or Ross, Doak, Hanse, et al" did the following this and that. Guys, just to break some news to you ... there are more people involved with the designing business. Not all good granted, but definitely with different ideas / approaches worth reviewing. I think Ed Carman is one of them. I also believe the club is smart enough to make the necessary adjustments in order to strengthen the good points and improve those areas in need.

What makes RD unique is that it isn't what you've seen before. That in and of itself is worth mentioning.

As far as the tree is concerned with #16 I say make it a point to make note of it and stay away. Does anyone pout about how inane the devil's a-hole is at the 10th at PV? As far as driving area is concerned -- how much room to do you need??? If you want ANGC or Garden City width fairways that's just not the case. I hit the ball a good bit when I connect and I credit Ed Carman with trying to temper the opportunity to literally just "bomb" away from the tee. If anything people should be highlighting RD as an example in dealing with technology and stronger type players.

Just for the record, my opinion of RD is not based on just my game. When I played it 6-8 weeks ago I played with a bus driver friend of mine who is an 18 handicap. He just gushed about the quality of the course and he believed that there are places to land the ball on most holes when a shot is properly struck.

I'm still waiting on "Doak" numbers for the other South Jersey courses I mentioned. I need to know if people are applying the same "criteria" as they deem it to be to a wide range of other courses for consistency. I can't see RD being a "4" unless I can see numbers on other courses in South Jersey where this method of application is also
carried forward. Agree w Mark that RD is a course midway between 6-7.

FYI

GeoffreyC: for what it's worth I agree with you about Mansion Ridge and Centennial. Let's grab that cold brew real soon!


Slag_Bandoon

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2001, 12:31:00 PM »
  What is the best web site for viewing Applebrook Golf Club?

Best web site for viewing Running Deer?

  Thank you      


GeoffreyC

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2001, 12:57:00 PM »
Matt- I don't think that we are as far apart as you and Mark seem to think.

You make a very good point about reigning in technology. Especially your 43 1/2 inch steel shafted driver  

I REALLY liked the first three holes a lot.  If the rest of the course was like that I too would give it a 7 OR MORE in a heartbeat.

I'll disagree about the tree just off the 16th green at the bottom of the collection area. Chop it down.

How about the field goal necessary on the right of 10 to get to the green.  How about building up the bunker thats right there anyway so the shot is MORE blind and CHOP down the trees. Just a suggestion.

On #11 you are certainly correct about it being blind only once but just by being there it removes a very valid option and it FORCES a layup to the right. No one in their right mind would knowingly force a drive over a bunker guarded behind by water to a VERY NARROW landing area on a diagonal. Just my opinion and I've been wrong before  

I'm much more concerned with these (above)and some awkward drives then I am about the greens.  I agree about the green speeds and their overall interest but I stand by by comments regarding their connection with the rest of the hole in several cases.

Make some changes like those described and my score would go up to the level of enthusiasm you and Mark show. A Doak 7 calls for "soundly designed holes" and I've given examples where I think they fall short.  This can be corrected.  


BillV

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2001, 01:02:00 PM »
Matt

A few NJ grades from recent plays.  I'm a hard grader.  We can't just hand out 7's and 8's left and right.  

Hamilton Farm 5-6
Hawk Pointe 5.5
Hollywood 6-7
Jasna Polana 3.5
Metedeconk 6.5 (Very hard to grade as was RD)
Pine Hill 5-5+ (I'll hear squawking on that, too, probably)
Royce Brook East 4-5
Royce Brook West 6 (I don't think there are too many bunkers.  There are lots of features on this coourse, too.  They harmonize)
Scotland Run 5-
Blue Heron Pines East (Smyers) 5-5+, probably

And Mark

For example, to see some intelligent, appropriate tough green contours, go see Legacy Ridge the next time you're in Denver.  It only costs $30.  I believe Keith Foster did them for Hills.  The best set of modern greens I've seen in a while.  Nothing like wild for wildness sake.  

Tom Doak: A seven, you have to want to travel 100 miles or more to play or see.  I think these ratings are consistent.

Mark Fine really raved about Running Deer.  Was I disappointed?  Yes.  But I also evaluated it on its own merits.


GeoffreyC

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2001, 01:06:00 PM »
Mike Cirba where the hell are you?

You've been drafted into the National Chainsaw Guard.

General Vostinak I suggest that we give them 72 hours to give us the trees or we go in and take them out.


Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2001, 01:10:00 PM »
Slag,
   Here's RD's web site:  http://www.runningdeergolfclub.com

   And here's Applebrook's: http://www.applebrookgolfclub.com/home.htm

My advice for finding web sites:  try the obvious first.


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2001, 02:44:00 PM »
Bill,
You and I are generally in agreement (most of your numbers on the courses you listed are inline with mine).  However, to say RD is behind essentially all of these courses you listed (you give it a 4.5) is beyond me.  Royce Brook East for example with the same rating?????  Not in a million years.  Even Steven Smyers would tell you that if he objectively rated both courses.  I've played that one a half dozen times (one of my largest customers has a membership there and that is where they take me) and it's in a totally different league.
Mark

BillV

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2001, 02:50:00 PM »
Mark

Stop trying to chastize me for my opinion.  

That is my opinion of that course in its current state.  If you want to discuss specific design features, fine.  But I already gave my opinion on the course as a whole.


Matt_Ward

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2001, 03:25:00 PM »
BillV: Thanks for posting numbers.

I'm grateful I finished school a few years ago because if I had you as a teacher I still might be there. Wow -- you do grade low!

Just for fun -- would you give PV a 10 or do you think it's slightly flawed?? What about Baltusrol? Plainfield? Galloway National? ACCC?

Royce Brook East could never ever be listed in the same manner with RD. Agree w Mark on that 100%.

BillV when you say "we can't hand out 7's and 8's left and right" I wonder who you were referring to?

I've already said that my grade of 7 for RD is high and I believe it would fall to where Mark has already stated. Believe me -- no one is handing out 7 & 8 numbers like candy to kids!

But, in my opinion, grades need to be fair in their application. BillV, I've seen your grades and I appreciate you listing them. I agree with a few of them, but I think Pine Hill is a bit low, ditto Hamilton Farm, ditto Blue Heron Pines / East and I think you could have bumped Hollywood even higher. Doak gave it a 7 years ago before the renovations of Rees Jones. Have you seen Hollywood since then? I think the course is an absolute jewel and worthy of 100 Greatest inclusion by GD.

I commend your marks on Jasna Polana, but see Royce Brook West and Hawk Pointe as too high. Next year The Jersey Golfer will update our rankings for best overall courses in the Garden State and those open to the public. I'll be reaching out to a number of people who have played a wide variety of courses. I'll include you on our survey when it comes out. I'll be prepared to know that like Scrooge you won't be giving Tiny Tim a big turkey! Just joking!

FYI ... just for the record

My grades for Jersey's top ten courses listed in order from last year's article ...

PV - 10
Plainfield - 9 (could be higher / lower pending completion of Gil Hanse renovation)
Metedeconk (First / Third Nines) - 8
Baltusrol (Lower) - 8
Hollywood - 8
Ridgewood (East / West) - 7.5
Galloway National - 7
Baltusrol (Upper) - 7
Forsgate (Banks Course) - 7
ACCC - borderline 7 but not quite

GeoffreyC: Thanks for your comments. I'm ready to bend an elbow together over a brew. Appreciate your comments about possible revision on RD in the future and you're right about a number of points. But, please #11 requires nothing more than a 200-yard shot off the tee down the middle and you'll have no more than a mid-iron at BEST. #12 also provides plenty of room and options if you play it smart.

I agree w Mark that RD has already provided plenty of discussion and I'm sure more will come as the club decides future revisions.

I agree w you that we rate courses as THEY ARE not about potential.

GeoffreyC -- can you provide your numbers on some of Jersey's top courses. The info gives me real insight about how others see them.

Thanks!


GeoffreyC

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2001, 04:25:00 PM »
Matt - I'll be glad to share a brew or two with you any time.  We can share opinions on various courses as well.

As to the 11th, I agree with you but to take away an option in my opinion is a negative. It removes a potential extra dimention to the hole.  Especially for match play where you might be 2 or 3 down coming to the 11th.

I have not played all of the courses mention in New Jersey.  It was a 145 mile drive each way to get down to the Atlantic City area.

My scores from some of them

Metedeconk - 7 to 7.5 (I wish it were on GW best modern list)
Royce Brook west - 6
Royce Brook east - 4.5 - 5
Jasna Polana - 3
The Knoll- 6 (should be higher)
Pine Valley - 10
Baltusrol Lower - 7.5
Plainfield- 8.5
Hamilton Farm- 6

Hope this helps.

I'd like to get to the Atlantic City area more often and I had a trip(s) for Galloway, Blue Heron Pines and Scotland Run planned but it just fell through. I will see all of them if not this season then certainly next. It's a rich area for GOOD modern courses. Twisted Dunes is on the short list as well. Hollywood is more likely within the next few weeks (closer to home).


Mike_Cirba

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2001, 07:01:00 PM »
It's great to see the level of detailed architectural discussion this post has generated.  Now, THIS is what GCA should be all about!

That being said, I'll don the battle armor and jump into the fray.

Running Deer is a throwback; a raw, creative, imaginatively bold effort literally molded out of the flat Jersey pinelands.

At it's best, it reminds one of what golf was possibly like in the 20s before modern notions of fairness and playability took over, mixed with the modern, sculpted, artistic look and daring of a Michael Strantz.  

At it's worst, one scratches their head as BillV mentions and mutters, "what the @*($?"  

Let's start with the good.  First of all, the look is startling and clearly meant to both inspire and intimidate.  Fairways generally have a good deal of movement and sometimes, purposeful obfuscation from the tee.  The bunkering is raw, wild, untamed, and close to great...no...it is excellent, especially in comparison to so many bland modern bunkering styles.  The positioning of the bunkers is close to random in stretches, which I appreciated for its unpredictability.  The greens, very, very challenging and running perhaps only 8 on the stimpmeter, are a roller-coaster ride of various imaginative design, though not completely tied into their surrounds, nor consistent with the overall theme.  For instance, it's somewhat overkill for a 480 yard par four to play to a green looking like volkswagons are buried underneath!

If it's the mark of a great course to have strong individual holes, RD has quite a number of them.  The first three are all imaginative and spine-tingling, the 5th is a great short pitch par three, 7 is an intimidating but still playable mid-length par three, and 8 has a wonderful green complex that offers all kinds of pin-placement options.  Heading out the back side, 10 is visually stunning.  

Then we get to the most discussed holes here and I'll weigh in my opinion.  11 does have the blind water hazard the Geoffrey and Bill mentioned, and it does make it foolish to attempt to carry the bunker.  However, the way the green runs off to almost a peninsula shelf in the back left makes one want to get as close to the green as possible.  This is not a hole where you want to have a mid-iron approach.  Instead, I believe the play is to challenge the bunker/water complex as close as possible to leave a short iron to another complex green.

12 I believe was outstanding.  BillV and I talked about this today, and I understand he played what are known as the "Long Wet" tees on that hole.  Simply put, that tee area doesn't work as the angle is totally incorrect.  The rest of the tees are further to the left of this left to right dogleg, and effectively creates a cape carry off the tee.  If you make the daring carry and keep the ball on the right side of the fairway, you have a preferred angle to the left to right canted green that sits beautifully and intimidatingly above the fairway.  At 479 from the tips, it's a potential killer, but also beautiful and thoughtful.  

13 is a par three that plays to 246 yards, but to a green nestled behind a minefield of bunkering and mounds to a green that is BRUTAL.  Thankfully, we played at 206 yards, and it's intimidating but reasonable from that distance.  It's the shortest 246 yard par FOUR I know!  

15 is one of the best holes on the course, and a great one to a green with a horseshoe feature that is brilliant.  Possibly the best hole on the course, playing the second over a sandy, bunkered pit that is visually awesome and scary.  

The majority of the holes are Fun, Inspired, Thoughtful, and Surprising in their imaginative and almost anachronistic shot values.  

However...then there are holes like 9, 14, and 18 that are among the worst holes I've ever seen.  As Geoffrey mentioned, the landing area between bunkers on 18 is 12 paces wide!!  This, on a 477 yard uphill par four!!  

You need to fade it slightly, there Matt??  I couldn't hit that area with a wedge?  

Seriously, I hit one of my best drives of the day that had a slight draw (I'm lefty), and it two hopped into the left side bunker.  From there, I faced an uphill, 200 yard, blind shot with a 60 foot tall tree in the way!  AAAARRRRGGGHHHH!

Nine....This is a hole that I took 2-iron from the tee and ended up in perfect position.  My options were to hit a 5 iron away from the green to the left, or attempt the 5 iron over a forest as I lay only 190 from the hole.  I took the forest route and almost made it, my ball ending just short of the green.  I can't describe how bad this hole is in it's present form.  

14 is nearly as bad, relying once again on two stands of trees to remove options and dictate play.

The green complexes, while wonderful if looked at as stand alone entities, are not nearly as tied-in to their surrounds as they could be.  All sorts of nooks and crannies and fall offs and rises really need to better integrated into the approach areas as well.  Bill's comparison to the kid who dresses in a menagarie of styles is somewhat apt here.  

The biggest problem at RD, however, is the fact that single trees have been left inside the fairly wide clearings in all sort of odd places.  In some ways, they add a sort of Augusta-like beauty, but they are pervasive and ultimately detracting and almost silly.  Potentially VERY good holes like the 10th are almost ruined by their existence within the playing areas.  They become double, even triple penalties in some instances like the one I mentioned on 18.  

The features on the course make RD more than interesting enough.  I can't tell you how much the existence of these trees negatively impacted both the vistas as well as the reasonable options that should exist on many holes.  

Nevertheless, I believe the good here is SO good that it clearly outweighs the negative by a good margin.  Hopefully, the course will continue to evolve, and I will gladly join the all-volunteer chainsaw army to help make this course all that it can be.  

I stand by my assessment that it's a 6.  It could be a seven with a good deal of thoughtful work.  

Incidentally, our other playing partner (also a Golfweek panelist who isn't particularly sophisticated with a computer) emailed me today with his rating.  He has played a great number of courses, including every course in NJ.  He told me he rates it between 5.5 and 6.5, so I feel that I'm in the right ballpark.  

Bottom line...I definitely understand Bill and Geoff's thoughtful critical assessments and negative criticisms, and don't quite feel as glowing as Mark and Matt in the course's present form.  Call me a moderate, but I'd recommend anyone travel a distance to play RD and although some holes and features WILL definitely disappoint, there are more than enough good things there to make me confident in stating that the course overall will not.


Mike_Cirba

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2001, 07:13:00 PM »
One other thing I should mention.  There has been some reference here to the objectivity and accuracy of those rating Running Deer.

I would say that in comparing notes with all who have weighed in here on other courses, we seem to agree much more than we disagree.  As noted, some are possibly "tougher" graders than others, and I think generally that one should approach course rating from a skeptical "show me" attitude.  

Still, I don't think I heard a comment from anyone who has weighed in that I don't agree with to some extent.  I really think that Running Deer is similar to Tobacco Road in the sense that it is so different that it polarizes discussion to some extent, which is probably a good an challenging thing...both to golf and to the rating systems in general.

Great discussion, fellas!  


Matt_Ward

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2001, 07:34:00 PM »
GeofrreyC:

Thanks for your numbers on other courses. I generally agree across the board except as much as I like The Knoll I think your grade of 6 is more about what the Knoll should be rather than what the Knoll is. Just a comment -- but I could be wrong.

What is it with everyone thinking Royce Brook West is so good? I'd like anyone to tell me what course they prefer -- Smyers efforts at RBW or his effort at Blue Heron Pines / East. We at Jersey Golfer had BHP / East as the 2nd best public course in the Garden State just behind Pine Hill.

I know Mike Cirba feels the order should be reversed.

Overall, Geoffrey we've got more in common than I thought. Sure makes those beers taste real good. Let me know when you and Mike might be available to tackle another Charles Banks Course -- Forsgate in Jamesburg!

Mike Cirba:

I'll pull back a bit with my comment on the 18th. I agree Mike it does get a bit narrow (really NARROW) in the drive zone. I crushed a tee shot from the tips and had no more than 175 yards in.  

Eliminating some of the trees on the right would help. I think BillV's idea for a split fairway (I think he mentioned this???) would be ideal.

You can pull down a few trees in other places. The big weakness? The par-5's -- they are really "lite" holes in comparison to the others. I really enjoyed the killer stretch of #11 thru #13. You had better bring your "A" game for each of them. I know plenty of people don't share my enthusiasm.

Your absolutely right Mike -- RD has created the kind of discussion that GCA should be about. Mike can you detail your numbers for other Jersey courses -- I'd like to understand how you see the lay of the land in Jersey. Let me know if your up for Forsgate as well.

I appreciate your balance in your review of RD. I thought I was a tough grader but I'm a softy when compared to others. When we mesh it together the consensus seems to be somewhere in between a 6-7 ... probably leaning more towards 6 than 7. RD certainly stirs the blood and it's good for everyone to weigh in with their comments.

More of this kind of dicsussion is needed with other topics.


Mike_Cirba

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2001, 07:58:00 PM »
Matt,

I'd love to get together at Forsgate.

As far as my general NJ rankings, I'd be happy to share them privately.  

I can tell you that Pine Valley is the best (real shocker, I know!), but you might be surprised by some of my ratings.  I'd just prefer not to offend anyone.  You know what a wallflower I've been here on controversial issues.  


GeoffreyC

Who is Ed Carman?
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2001, 01:36:00 AM »
Matt

Forsgate sounds great. I'd love to have a game with you and Mike there some time soon.

I knew that the Knoll would get a response.  I agree with you too.  It just cries out for a restoration. In reality more of a 5 at current state.

It was me who suggested the split fairway on 18.  If there were some risky option to go to the right I think it could improve an awkward tee shot.  Also, a split fairway is about the only feature not yet used at RD  


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