Sand Hills vs. Pacific Dunes

[NAF]

In August's interview with Tom Doak he pointed out that he considered Sand Hills as a soul sister with Pacific Dunes.  After playing both courses in the last month and after just getting home from Nebraska,  
I thought a comparison of the two would be bound to happen on this DG..

#1- SH 1up-The par 5 opener with the challenge at SH to brave the left side crater and get the extra 40yds worth of roll vs. the gentle opener at Pac Dunes.  There is no comparison here especially when
you factor in how hard the approach is to #1 green at SH and the green itself is no easy feat to putt on.
#2- SH 1up- Halved hole as the green complex at 2 with the false front and need to bounce you approach off one of the sides of the green to get it close balances out the Shoe bunker tee placement and great green at Pac Dunes.
#3- AS- Great long par 3 at Sand Hills and a very good well bunkered par 5 at Pac Dunes.  The fairway bunkering and green complex give Pac Dunes the nod..
#4- Pac Dunes 1 up.  As much as I loved the 4th at Sand Hills..one of my favorite holes, the 4th as many here know at Pac Dunes is world class..How can one not love the blowout crater though at #4 in Nebraska. I felt insignificant down there trying to hit a shot out.
#5-AS  A good par 3 with a great green complex at Pac Dunes..The contouring with the different levels makes the hole an interesting iron selection to get it close..But the tee shot angle on #5 at Sand Hills wins the hole as the "shoe like" bunker comes into play especially into the wind.  
#6-AS- A great short par 4 at PD vs. another tough par 3 at SH with a great green complex.  I have a penchant for quirky short par4s so will halve the hole.
#7-AS- One of the best holes at Pac Dunes with great natural bunkering down the left side and the knob in the middle of the fairway near the hole. SH #7 is a terrific short par 4 that would be reachable
downwind but has a huge drop off right and protective bunker left.
#8-Pac Dunes 1up- The bunker greenside on #8 at Pac Dunes dictates strategy on the approach as you can bail out right and have the ball feed to the hole if the pin in place in back of the bunker.  #8 at
SH is reachable from the mid tees and has a similar bunker guarding the green at PD but less strategy.  The green complex at SH is fabulous with a tough downhill putt if you don't get above the hole and also
terrific contour.
#9- PD 2 up.  A two greened great hole at PD with terrific tee shot placement required over a blind ridge vs. the dogleg long par 4 at SH.  Nothing wrong with #9 at SH but I found it to be the only indifferent hole there.
#10- PD 1up. A scenic par 3 at Pac Dunes which is nothing but a drop shot from the upper tees and a very challenging long par 3 from the lower tees vs. a great natural looking long par 4 at SH which has
great undulation in the fairway.
#11-AS. An eye candy wee pitch at PD with great bunkering vs. a great par 4 at SH. The hole is right there to be challenged and the greenside bunker found my approach.
#12- AS- A medium length par 5 at PD vs. another good par 4 at SH.  Match still squared.
#13- PD 1up.  As great as another long par 3 can be at SH with a terrific green, the 13th is one of the most sweeping and beautiful par 4s around at PD with the huge sand hill on the right and ocean left.
#14-AS. The weakest (I thought) of the par 3s at PD vs. a great risk/reward par 5 at SH. Can your tee shot gain the hill at SH to turn a 7 iron approach vs. a long iron to get there in 2?  The green is no gimme either.
#15-PD 1up. A great downwind par 5 at PD that is reachable and has very good fairway bunkering and a tough green to hold as it is plateaued and falls off.. The 15th into the wind at SH is a terrific challenge but the risk reward here favors PD.
#16-AS Here comes the best finishing holes I have ever played and they reside in Nebraska.  A monster par 5 at SH with a huge bunker left that needs to be challenged again on your tee shot and you can get added distance ala #1 to go for it downwind.  Into the wind this hole might play 700 yards or at least it feels so.  #16 at PD is a lovely short par 4 that winds left and has a challenging green to pitch
chip to but it can't compare to SH.
#17 SH 1up. Both have great par 3s.  The coffin bunkering and blowout bunkering at SH makes the green look a small elusive target..but despite being 150yds this is no easy target to hit into the wind.   I
love the green complex and redanish strategy at PD but SH's is more fun to play.
#18 SH 2up-A great par 5 at PD with a monster bunker down the left side and a tough green to hold (I found) but the 18th at SH has the best and biggest bunker I have ever seen down its left side.  How hard was this hole into the wind?  I hit driver/3wood and was 15 ft above the hole which was cut in the
front right..Hitting my putt off the toe, the wind and contour took my putt 40yds down the fairway and resulted in the superintendent cutting a new hole location as my playing partner and I took 10 minutes trying to
get one close to the pin placement to no avail.

I didnt think this comparison would be that close but PD has great individual holes.  Still Sand Hills is the best I have ever played to date and was some experience!  Are they soul sisters?  I think the answer is yes..

[John_Conley]

Lest anyone be impressed that the Naffer has played Sand Hills AND Pac Dunes inside of one month, he's also played some of the greatest courses in Japan, England, and Long Island this year.

Noel's playlist for 2001 would shame the lifetime list for most people!

Viva le Naffer!  GCA rues the day you get a real life.

[ForkaB]

John

The Nafster also made it to Cruden Bay and Dornoch.

Noel

I think the 1st at PD is a great little hole, even from the 304 "back" tees that we played it at.  Almost Painswickian in character, particularly at 6:50 in the morning.  Our group of 10 reasonably good golfers had only 1 birdie and a par or two in 25-30 goes.  They were putting in a new tee while we were there (right up close to the "clubhouse") that will probably give better visibility, but not necessarily improve the hole, IMHO.

[JWC]

Rich:  That only cements my point.  The dude has played so many great courses EVEN HE can't keep 2001 straight!!
"Juicy" - no relation to the NAFFER
(John Conley)

[Ran Morrissett]

The sand hills of NB should yield the better course because of its more consistently interesting topography. Doak does extremely well in chewing up the flat plain of the property with his three shot holes but still, such land is a handicap relative to the rolling sand hills.

Plus, while the cliffs and Pacific Ocean are SPECTACULAR, the cliff line is more or less a straight line (save for the 4th tee area). It acts as a boundary to the course without lending itself to creating holes like 8 at Pebble Beach  or 16/17 at Cypress with their interesting angles of play/strategy.

There were no such boundaries at Sand Hills to confine the architects from coming at a specific feature from any angle that they so wished. Thus, I believe they were freer to explore more permutations.

Cheers,

[Ran Morrissett]

PS I would definitely give holes 6 and 7 to PD, the 12th to Sand Hills, and halve the 4th.

[NAF]

Ran,

That was actually my original thinking but I thought the setting on #4 gave it the nod..Architectually, I like #4 at SH better..As for #7, I halved it only b/c of the look at Pac Dunes..I love the bunkering down the left side and the knob in the fairway..#7 at SH is more fun to play..Unfortunately it played into the wind during my stay so you couldnt reach it..

My initial rankings had SH winning 4up but when I rethought it I came to that conclusion..

Perhaps another good match play is Wild Horse vs. Sand Hills..I met a few people who actually prefer Wild Horse..I liked that course a great deal but would compare it by saying Wild Horse is like Sylvester Stallone in Rambo and SH is like Arnold Schwarzenegger in Conan..One guy is strong and has big muscles , the other a monster with bulk, size and enormous strength..Or as John Conley told me Wild Horse is 2-D and SH is 3-D...

[ForkaB]

Noel

This is a GREAT new scale!

So, what is PD?

A lion in lamb's clothing?  Steven Segal?
A little je ne sais quois?  Jean Claude Van Damme?
An All-American ass kicker?  Chuck Norris?
A bit mysterious and brutal?  Bruce Lee?
A walk on the feminine side of the personality?  Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

Your thoughts are anxiously awaited.........

[NAF]

Rich,

Lets see...PD would be Gene Hackman..Solid, good in ever picture he acts in, one of the best, classy etc.

Buffy the Vampire slayer--this would definitely be Pelican Hill..Great to look at, take for a test drive but pretty much nothing else there after you experience it once.

Jean Claude Van Damne-i.e. the muscles from Brussels, a course that is Belgian with attitude and would insult you at the drop of a hat...hmmn, lets say TPC Sawgrass..

Chuck Norris=Winged Foot West
Anthony Hopkins=Royal Dornoch

and of course:

TOC=Sean Connery..

hope you like this trite comparisons..Ran is probably wondering where this thread will go now that we have taken it to this level..

[Dan King]

I'd say PD is Jean Reno in Léon the Professional.  Gets the job done, but a milk drinker. Doesn't harm women and children, but when the wind is up ...

One thing about last weekend at Bandon, I don't think you will often see that many days in such calm conditions.

Dan King
dking@danking.org

quote:Mathilda: Is life always this hard, or is it just when you're a kid?
Léon: Always like this.

[Tim_Weiman]

Dan King:

First, my apologies for not making it back to the bench.  Actually, I got hung up with golf photographer John Henebry and did actually get a picture....unfortunately not one with you on it.

We will just have to press our campaign to upgrade the Bandon Resort library so we can both get back to Bandon real soon.

Now to the point of my post.  You have finally given me the courage to say what I really think of Pacific Dunes.

I've been having trouble because for the sake of comparison no other course comes to mind.

What does come to mind is a business meeting I had in Paris a couple years ago. By good fortunate I met a women who was stunningly beautiful, exquisitely dressed, obviously very intelligent and to top it off, surprisingly warm and friendly.

And recently engaged.  Oh, well!

So, that's how I think of Pacific Dunes.  True, there are parts that are beautiful.  But, I was more impressed with how tastefully everything was presented.  You might call her a girl with very little make up.

Pacific Dunes is also the opposite of the "dumb blonde".  Doak & Co. made sure you will need to think your way around.  It's a course that will require good judgment as much as good ball striking.

After all that, the "warm and friendly" part really stands out thanks to wide fairways, an absence of many forced carries and greens that are interesting but avoid going over the top.

I won't tell you the name of that French girl I met, but every time I go back to Pacific Dunes, she'll be on my mind.

[Rex Reed]

Dan King-You must have missed the quick blip of film which shows Leon' getting up out of bed pulling up his undergarments, at the very moment time Matilda does the same.

This scene is shortly before the end of the movie when Gary Oldman and Company come to get him.

In simple terms, He did her.

quote:Matilda: I love you Leon'!
Leon: I love you to Matilda, now go and don't look back! Do not stop, just keep on going!

[Jay]

Played SH and WH this week and both are playing firm and extremely fast, and the wind was up this weekend at SH.
I haven't seen PD yet, but if they're sisters, it must be one heck of a course.
Put me down as one who'd love to explore it in great detail.
Jay

[Mike_Cirba]

Alright, let's have it...

and let's not couch it in match-play terms either, because all of us know the downsides of that approach, even Ran.  

Noel, I appreciate your listing the hole by hole comparison for those of us who haven't played them both (or haven't played either), and you continue to amaze me with your travels.  It couldn't happen to a better guy!

However...

For those of you fortunate souls who have played both PD and SH, I ask the following question.

What is the best American course built since 1940?  

No need to explain....two word answers will do!  

[brad_miller]

Seems fair to say that most GCA'ers like the work of C&C and Doak. Each of their best works are talked about under this topic, great land, great architecture! What are their 2nd and 3rd best works?? Might we see new works by these two that can truely stand up to these 2 great courses?? In their hands, the answer is probably in the land.

[Paul Turner]

Are the really small scale lumps and hummocks on the fairways and approaches on holes 1,7,9,16&18 at Pacific Dunes unique in American golf?  

The type that remind me of Rye and Darwin's famous quote about being " prepared to hit Brassey shots-long straight brassy shots too-with one foot on a hummock and the other in a pit"  

[Tim_Weiman]

Paul Turner:

Yes, the Pacific Dunes fairways you mention are unusual for American golf.  Even right next door at Bandon Dunes, we aren't so blessed.

A few years ago I went with Russell Talley from European Golf Design out to Burnham & Berrow and was delighted to find the kind of fairways we really don't have here in the States.  Come to think of it, I do see some parallel between PD and B&B.  Both have some of those wonderful fairways with all kinds of movement, but they also  have several lacking that feature.  In both cases the architect left alone what he found.  Thank goodness.