Apache Stronghold vs. Victoria National

[Don Mahaffey]

Derek,
I’m aware of the podcasts with Mike and Keith. 
I’m aware that Winter Park has been a story and Keith and Riley have been on many podcasts talking about it. And I think that’s a very good thing.


I think what I’m asking for is too difficult to really dig into, and if someone tried, there may not be much of an audience.


I also think it’s hard to be critical today for fear of losing work opportunities (guys like me) or losing opportunities for interviews (media guys like you). 


My news gathering may be incomplete, or I might just be bored.

[Tom_Doak]

Roman,
Stone Eagle's greens, however, were tame compared to many of AS's.  I will leave it at that.


Note:  My own personal rule of thumb - when I stand over a putt and say to myself, I am not sure I can even three putt from here, then the green might be teetering toward goofy    To each his own 
Mark

That is not true at all.  Either your memory is faulty or you just don’t know what you’re looking at.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
Yes I was/am involved in all three and many here know it.

. . .

You've been talking about your process for years...but you also know it's a great deal for clients in most cases. The truth is the truth, even if it comes with a conflict.

Some people know your involvement but many don’t, since those courses aren’t marketed with your name.  And it’s the hidden conflicts of interest that are most insidious.  TV news magazine shows are full of guys whose byline is “former Secretary of State” whose real byline should be “highly paid lobbyist for Country X who he is defending right now,” and of course The Golf Channel has its equivalents.


I’ve always figured there’s no hidden conflict of interest with me because everyone knows what I do, and if I’m talking about someone else’s work they already assume my motives are worse than they really are. 😀

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
I played the two courses 15 or 20 years apart but that is my recollection.  What I do know for sure is the speed of the AS greens the day I played was way too fast for the contours.  I remember having a discussion with Geoff Shackelford after my round and he didn’t disagree with me.  Maybe I am mistaken about Stone Eagle but I thought the greens while difficult, were not over the top.  I was told members feel they are “extremely challenging”.  Is that a better way to phrase it?  I did not think they were nearly as challenging as AS.  The Stone Eagle greens were rolling about 10 and perfectly true.  Maybe this is a good example of how green speed can dramatically impact the playability of a set of greens. 
Mark

[Tommy Naccarato]

My God! Was I alive back in 2001?


FWIW, I still think Apache Stringhold as one of Tom’s best!  Why?


I will never forget all of us holding court that first night till about 4 or 5 in the morning talking Architecture.  One of the greatest night’s of my life! Seriously!  I needed two weeks vacation and a new liver when I got home!


But for as Don Mahaffey, calls, “you Snowflakes” I will never forget Uncle George and myself talking, he said to me, “You know, there not doing that good right now...  Work is scarce.  They need work.” 


You see, at the time, Tom hadn’t broke out yet.  Work was scarce and it’s the perfect American success story of seeing, walking in the footsteps of greatness.  At least in our circles.  Apache Stronghold was my first Doak course played, (not counting what work he did at PGA West) and it fit everything I had studied and read up to that point.  But getting to that point was a challenge; working with the Apache was no easy task.  How do I know?  Try ordering breakfast at the Apache Gold restaurant!


The REN guys had to train a tribe of Native Americans how to build a golf course when none of them really wanted to learn to begin with!  Akalyne and Water issues of the site made it tough to grow grass in certain areas, but none of that mattered to me.  The perfection of the course was there! Every hole a kick, and memorable.  So much, I can point out to you where my every shot went the three times playing it, passing the fabled “Mucci test” of how good a golf course is by how long it takes you to get from the 18th green back to the first tee! For me 45+ holes on two hours nap, then a closing 18 on Sunday.). Bill “Redanman” Vostinak and I played the Redan Par 3 13th more then  6 times, hitting successive balls, going and picking them up and going back to hit again and again on Saturday night!  We got in, it was pitch black dark and the party already started!


So, in tradition of Blonds, Brunettes & Redheads, I’ll take Ann Margaret while you guys fight over Emily Raitakowski!


I’m not the only person that thinks that way either!

[Mark_Fine]

Tommy,
Sounds like your experience was a 10!  Can’t argue with that at all.  But what do you give the golf course?  I would be curious what Tom gives AS as well? 
Mark

[George Pazin]

Few things annoy me as much as “better” golfers pontificating on how greens may be too difficult for us lesser golfers.


Speak for your own weak self, not the rest of us.

[Mark_Fine]

George,
You need to sit one day (especially at a public course) for a few hours by a green (even a flat one) and watch groups come through and golfers putt.  I have done this many times.  It is eye opening 


As an architect, you have to understand how the far majority of golfers play the game.  There is a reason golf is not exploding in growth. 
Mark

[Don Mahaffey]

It sure as hell isn't because we need more flat greens

[Mark_Fine]

You are correct Don.  No one here is advocating flat greens.  Green speed is most often the culprit when going from interesting contours to simply goofy. 

[George Pazin]

George,
You need to sit one day (especially at a public course) for a few hours by a green (even a flat one) and watch groups come through and golfers putt.  I have done this many times.  It is eye opening 


As an architect, you have to understand how the far majority of golfers play the game.  There is a reason golf is not exploding in growth. 
Mark

Poor players struggle with everything in the game. Pandering to them by making it less interesting does little to encourage their interest.


I sat many hours and watched top ams and pros putt at Oakmont. Never once did I see someone and think, geez, they should really make these greens a little easier. I even played there myself last May. I struggled mightily on the day, but not at the things that make Oakmont difficult. I struggled because I was afraid of embarrassing myself in front of my playing partners and caddy. Which I did anyway. But I did fine with the tough stuff - got out of 13 of 14 bunkers I hit into (!) in one shot, and the only pick up was because I was a bit freaked out by the caddy and another player standing next to the hole on #4 when I was in the front left greenside bunker. I'm sure they knew they were safe , but that didn't bother me any less.


I three putted a bunch, but it was mostly because my first miss usually left me 5-8 feet from the hole (I'm not used to greens such as those), and then I two putted from there. But again, it was fun and I didn't think they should dumb it down for me or anyone else.


The worst thing you can do to promote interest in the game is make it more boring, imho. Cheaper and faster, sure, but less interesting? I'll pass on that.

[Mark_Fine]

George,
You watched top AMs and Pros.  You need to watch the other 99% play the game 
Mark

[Roman Schwarz]

It sure as hell isn't because we need more flat greens

100% agree.


A few months ago we were at Tobacco Road and I hit my approach to the upper tier of the 16th green with the pin on the lower tier.  I hit what I thought was a perfect putt, barely rolling as it passed the hole....and it rolled 60 yards down the hill back into the fairway.  I've played that hole dozens of times and never seen anything like it.  We were relatively alone that day, so we spent 20 minutes trying to find a way to putt from the upper tier to the lower without going all the way down the hill.  We tried going left and right off the green and using all banks to no avail.  Even setting a ball on the slope itself didn't work.


The overall architecture of that hole is worth it's own thread (#hate, but it's better than #15), but the green contours are not the problem.  This was after the tropical storms went through last fall and fell in a few weeks where we got very little rain.  My guess is that they were trying to let the course dry out (many areas still had standing water), but some higher greens were getting a little too slick (#12 was also getting out of hand).


TR normally has their greens running at an appropriate speed, and this was a one-time isolated incident in my opinion.  It's just a one-off example of how the speed/slope combination determines fun vs. frustration.

[Ted Sturges]

My God! Was I alive back in 2001?


FWIW, I still think Apache Stringhold as one of Tom’s best!  Why?


I will never forget all of us holding court that first night till about 4 or 5 in the morning talking Architecture.  One of the greatest night’s of my life! Seriously!  I needed two weeks vacation and a new liver when I got home!


But for as Don Mahaffey, calls, “you Snowflakes” I will never forget Uncle George and myself talking, he said to me, “You know, there not doing that good right now...  Work is scarce.  They need work.” 


You see, at the time, Tom hadn’t broke out yet.  Work was scarce and it’s the perfect American success story of seeing, walking in the footsteps of greatness.  At least in our circles.  Apache Stronghold was my first Doak course played, (not counting what work he did at PGA West) and it fit everything I had studied and read up to that point.  But getting to that point was a challenge; working with the Apache was no easy task.  How do I know?  Try ordering breakfast at the Apache Gold restaurant!


The REN guys had to train a tribe of Native Americans how to build a golf course when none of them really wanted to learn to begin with!  Akalyne and Water issues of the site made it tough to grow grass in certain areas, but none of that mattered to me.  The perfection of the course was there! Every hole a kick, and memorable.  So much, I can point out to you where my every shot went the three times playing it, passing the fabled “Mucci test” of how good a golf course is by how long it takes you to get from the 18th green back to the first tee! For me 45+ holes on two hours nap, then a closing 18 on Sunday.). Bill “Redanman” Vostinak and I played the Redan Par 3 13th more then  6 times, hitting successive balls, going and picking them up and going back to hit again and again on Saturday night!  We got in, it was pitch black dark and the party already started!


So, in tradition of Blonds, Brunettes & Redheads, I’ll take Ann Margaret while you guys fight over Emily Raitakowski!


I’m not the only person that thinks that way either!

Tommy,    That first night at Apache Stronghold was a huge "internet aha moment" for me.  You and I had bantered on gca.com for months but had obviously never met.  I go walking up to the front door with my father, and you opened the door for us.  I said "thank you sir" and you being the gregarious person that you are, introduced yourself.  I then introduced myself and my father to you, and it was as if two old friends were meeting for the first time.  It was a cool/weird moment and one that could only happen with the cyber age.  I hope you are well my friend. 


Best regards,     Ted

[George Pazin]

George,
You watched top AMs and Pros.  You need to watch the other 99% play the game 
Mark

I AM one of those guys. I play almost exclusively with those guy, unless I am fortunate enough to be enjoying a round with a gcaer. Call me crazy, lord knows plenty of people do, but I simply can't imagine you understand the other 99% better than me. I actually talk to those guys, I don't just watch them on the greens.

[Kalen Braley]

As George pointed out and Erik in other threads...I think there are some misconceptions with putting, especially when it comes to the differential between a good player and high cappers.

In general, we incur the vast majority of our extra strokes trying to get to the greens, not once we're on them.  Sure we have the occasional 3 putt, but then again so do even the best of players.  The biggest difference is, considering most 1st putts are less than 30-40 feet away, there just isn't a whole lot that can go seriously wrong...as opposed to being 450 yards away.

P.S. The only real difference i see is brand new players vs everyone else.  Those first 5-10 outings, they often struggle with putting as its tough to gauge how hard to hit a 8-10 footer vs a 20-25 footer...but most soon get the feel and off they go.

[Gib_Papazian]

Here is my takeaway after going it around it twice, hitting extra balls with my close buddy and generally having a blast: As long as there is grass on the greens and the fairways no worse than a marginal muni, conditioning is almost irrelevant. The golf course is pure, naturalistic fun - it feels like you're playing a cross-country match, like "okay, let's hit it over there."


You're in Globe, Az, so you might as well dig on the campiness of the whole gig. It's a low rent retreat for you and the homies, to play skins games all day long through a canyon full of rattlesnakes. The beer is cold, the golf course plays fast and the evening casino entertainment is like bad Atlantic City on an acid trip. In other words, enormously entertaining - in a twisted sort of way.


Now, if somebody can please explain to me how to play #10, I would appreciate it.     

[Mark_Fine]

Gib,
Nice of you to chime in. Long time since we teed it up.  Hope we can do it again soon. 


Your description of the course and your experience sounds like a Doak 2 (tee it up in a scramble with a good case of beer and have fun)    The golf course is obviously much better than that (which I think you agree).  As I said I gave it about a 6.5 which on my personal chart is pretty darn good.  I loved the creativity.  Just some of the greens were 


Mark

[Gib_Papazian]

Mark, I was afraid somebody would make that comparison, using the "Doak Scale" - especially because Tom designed the golf course. However, discounting conditioning - personally, I only whine if the course is too wet - I give it a solid 7+.


The point is, any golf course with enough variety and aesthetic/strategic content where my extended cabal can go gleefully round & round without feeling repetitive is exactly what I seek out these days.


I find no joy in getting my penis ripped off 18 times in a row - or winning a skin with bogey. These days, 6400 yards of fast-playing amusement is where this old guy finds his joyous place.