[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Mucci --

I said I was finished, and I am. You continue to tell me what I believe, crave, want, expect, etc. -- in contradiction to what I've said I believe, crave, want, expect.

But...I must answer one accusation: that there was a contradiction between my first "most unhappy" comment and my "I'd love Atlantic" comment. Check the transcript, sir, and you will find that you never mentioned the presence of caddies (which would more than satisfy yen for information) at this mystery course until 10:10 p.m. on 9/24 -- after my "most unhappy" comment. Nice thing about these threads: They preserve the past so nicely.

[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Galea --

Yes, sir. St. Paul Pioneer Press.

--30--

[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Mucci --

Oh, just one more, because I hate to have myself misrepresented:

I have never said, nor would I ever say, that perfectly struck golf shots should "universally" be rewarded.

I would say, and have said in this thread, that I LIKe it when mine are so rewarded; that it makes me HAPPY when mine are so rewarded -- and that the likelihood of mine being so rewarded increases if I have a bit of information to go on prior to hitting the shot. That bit of information, at the Atlantic Club, would, of course, come from those knowledgeable caddies that you somehow failed to mention when you posed the question I foolishly attempted to address, way back when.

--30--30--30--

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,

With or without a caddy, the same course exists, to be enjoyed and played.

Over and over again you stated you wanted maps, codes, etc., etc..to provide you with an abundance of information.

If there were no caddies, at Atlantic, NGLA, Shinnecock, PV and GCGC you said you wouldn't enjoy yourself the first time you played there, which means that something is missing or lacking in your appreciation of a great golf course. It's unfortunate that they make you unhappy unless you play them with an abundance of information/data relating to yardage and direction.  

Those are your words, in your ORIGINAL post.

Judging from your posts, you obviously favor the elimination of the stymie too.

[Mike O'Neill]

Too bad this post on the Atlantic couldn't have been more pacific. Nonetheless, what are some of the best aspects of the Atlantic course for those of us who have not played it? Not counting the aspects regarding course information, that is.

[Mike O'Neill]

Too bad this post on the Atlantic couldn't have been more pacific. Nonetheless, what are some of the best aspects of the Atlantic course for those of us who have not played it? Not counting the aspects regarding course information, that is.

[Mike O'Neill]

Too bad this post on the Atlantic couldn't have been more pacific. Nonetheless, what are some of the best aspects of the Atlantic course for those of us who have not played it? Not counting the aspects regarding course information, that is.

[SPDB]

(I can't believe i am contributing to this post's continuance)
Patrick -

Any green, especially greens at a new course like Atlantic, has a limited number of pinnable areas. Therefore, a caddy who takes pride in his/her job, knows how to recognize these pins immediately at sight and their corresponding yardages from the back/front left/right of the greens. Can you disagree?

I think you have to capitulate on this idea of playing by feel while relying on a caddy's knowledge of the course. It is too much of a paradox for you to continue maintaining your argument.

If you still disagree, you and I are similar, in that we will adhere to our arguments in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  

[Ken Bakst]

Pat
FYI, Atlantic was built WITH cart paths.  Now I understand that they have been trying to "grass over" their cart paths, but I'm pretty sure that some still exist (i.e., down #1).  Furthermore, you have given the impression that there are no yardage indicators on the golf course, but there were always center-of-the-green yardages on all of the sprinkler heads.  Has that changed?

[Dan Kelly]

TO MR. MUCCI --  

Now I'm curious.

Are you a theologian, a lawyer or a politician? Those are the only three types of people I can think of who could so stubbornly persist in misrepresenting one's opponents.

It apparently pleases you to imagine that I'm some kind of GD fool, who wouldn't know enough to appreciate the glories of those magnificent private courses you apparently play so often -- and play so often, of course, exclusively by ("What do you think, caddie? Is that pin up front, caddie?") feel. (There's a subject for a theologian: Why is there so little justice on this Earth?) If that's what you think, fine; that makes you the GD fool.

Or perhaps you don't think that I'm a GD fool, but merely pretend to -- realizing that throwing grenades at one's opponents is far less risky than attempting to address their ideas head-on and honestly, giving them at least a glimmer of the benefit of the doubt.

If I'd realized what sort of person I would be up against here, I'd certainly have spent a great deal more time crafting my ORIGINAL reply, clunking it up with conditions and provisos -- so that you couldn't throw it back in my face days later, even as you refuse to acknowledge the hundreds of clarifying words I've since written.

It would seem obvious, to a person of charity and good will, that I was not referring to Shinnecock, Pine Valley or the like -- but to the lesser creations that, as a matter of course, I play . . . often only once, usually with company that does not include a caddie. (Curious, again: Do you play most of your rounds alone -- by necessity, or because having anyone else around would give you unwanted information?)

Would I love to play NGLA, PV, GCGC, Shinnecock, or any of several hundred other great courses, without a caddie or any other information? Of course -- and I have done so, on numerous occasions.

Would I prefer to play them with a caddie, or with some minimal information about them? Yes.

Note: minimal information. (If you say one more time that I crave, demand, expect anything more than minimal information, I swear I'm scream so loud that you'll hear me all the way to Long Island, over the fences and the hedges that you thought protected you from the GD fools outside.)

TO THE REST OF YOU:

I apologize for the undignified tone of this entire thread. You deserve better. (Hell, I deserve better!) Without exception, until now, I've enjoyed reading your exchanges over the past few weeks. A thread like this won't happen again, at least with my participation.

When I realized that I was speaking to a man who wouldn't listen, I should have written it off. Who cares, after all, if Mr. Patrick Mucci understands me? No one! No one cares! Not even I care, really! But I have this bad habit: I won't allow someone else to have the last word about me, if that last word distorts and misrepresents me.

Thanks to those of you who bravely (and/or foolishly) waded in here to attempt, vainly, to get some answers from the originator of this thread.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Sean, Atlantic's greens DON'T have a LIMITED number of pinable areas as you suggest.  Hence the caddy has NO advantage over the player in determining pin locations.
How many times have you played Atlantic ?

Ken Bakst,

The only cart paths are on the extremely steep inclines from the tee to the fairway.
Removal of those would create a dangerous situation and a serious liability problem.

What I said in my original post was that there were no tee signs with yardages, handicap number, etc., etc..

Dan Kelly,

You are wrong again, I am neither a lawyer, politician or theologian.

You say now, that you should have crafted your early posts more carefully, to convey what you really meant.  You're right.  
How are we to differentiate that which you wrote, from that which you meant ?
How are we to take you at your word, if your posts don't reflect what you really mean ?

In one of my early posts, (09-25-01) I included a smiley face   after a remark to you.  You completely missed the message conveyed by the smiley face, one of fun and jest.  You took a very serious tone, when the smiley face clearly indicated I was poking fun.  Seeing how serious you became brought out the Peck's bad boy in me and I couldn't resist disagreeing with you, chiding you, and teasing you.  
I must sheepishly confess, that I have enjoyed myself, and that you continued to miss messages and lighten up, even after I accussed you of being in favor of the abolishment of the stymie.  
My god man, wake up.

Now I never called you a fool or an idiot, though you brought the question up about yourself several times.  

I never made this personal, I questioned, prodded, disagreed  and asked you to be accoutable for your posts, and I disagreed with your posts, but.... if you have a hard time when people disagree with your stated position, that's a problem you're going to have to overcome.  Perhaps, in your line of work, you're not used to people disagreeing with you.  This site can get contentious, but it's rarely personal.

Perhaps anger management classes are available in Minnesota  

[SPDB]

patrick -
let me get this straight, you are saying that Atlantic's green have unlimited pinnable areas? that would make the course, one of the following:
a) a composition of 18 flat greens
b) a modern architectural miracle

Due to severe contouring (and I am only using modern green construction techniques, as my guide) there are typically only a handful of given areas where the pin will be cut, or better put, can be cut. these areas are normally recognizable by anybody who has played the course or seen the course on a regular basis (i.e. your caddy).

Your position in this argument is untenable. I'm sorry.

[ForkaB]

Dan

Please do not apologize.  This thread is fun.  Of course, you and Sean are right and Patrick is wrong, but he will never admit it until you agree with him.  For guidance on this subtle strategy, see my nudging of him to my position on the "Stymie" issue several months ago.  He now thinks he created the thoughts that I first expressed!

Yours faithfully, etc., etc,

Rich

[Ken Bakst]

Pat
What you said in your original post was "Has no monuments, posts or signs indicating hole number, yardage, handicap, etc., etc.." not "no tee signs with yardages, handicap number, etc., etc.."  And the subsequest debate that ensued related to the need for a good caddy, which is obviously not limited to just the tee boxes.  So I didn't interpret your comment to mean only on the tee boxes. And in any event, there are black, blue, white and yellow "monument" markers on every hole which correlate to black, blue, white and yellow yardages on the score card.

Also, Atlantic still, to this day, has cart paths.  They may not be paved, but all of the original paths still exist in one form or another.  Correct?

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

You said that Atlantic had a LIMITED number of pinable locations and you're wrong, Atlantics greens have an ABUNDANT number of pinable locations.

There are so many pin locations available on every green, with perhaps the exception of the slightly downhill 120 yard 11th, that the caddy has absolutely no advantage in determining where the pin is, versus the player.

Name me one hole, where a caddy has an advantage over the player with respect to ascertaining the pin location ?

You never answered my question with respect to how many times you have played Atlantic.  I suspect you're discussing a golf course you've never laid eyes on.

Rich Goodale,

Sure, now that I've rekindled and spearheaded the now overwhelmingly popular movement to return the stymie, you chime in claiming all the credit.

Ken Bakst,

Paragraph seven (7) of my opening post is pretty specific with regard to Hole number, yardage and handicap information on munuments, posts or signs.  

Tee markers obviously have colors relating to the scorecard, and I never referenced tee markers.

I don't consider the service roads around the golf course as cart paths.

[RobertWalker]

Pat Mucci,
Just what the hell is your point?

[Ken Bakst]

Pat

I was not referring to TEE MARKERS.  I said that there are black, blue, white and yellow MONUMENTS on every hole at Atlantic.  I was referring to the black, blue, white and yellow round disks that are set in the ground at grade to identify the scorecard yardage.  The tee markers are obviously not always set at those MONUMENTS.  So a player at Atlantic, without a caddy, could very easily determine the yardage of any hole from any tee box.

Now with respect to the cart paths, I was not referring to service roads.  I was referring to cart paths.  Now if your definition of a cart path is only one which is paved (or some other hard surface), then, yes, Atlantic has attempted to eliminate those hard surfaces to the greatest extent possible (but it wasn't "built" that way).  But that's not my definition.  Pine Valley, in my opinion, has cart paths, they just aren't paved.  Atlantic is similar.  Just think of the cart path, for example, up the left side of two and over to 3 tee and down into the 3rd fairway.  What would you call that?  Now Easthampton GC has no cart paths period because they have no room or provisions for carts.  So that's the distinction that I'm making.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

RobertWalker,

I thought my point was clearly stated in my original post, namely that there are no man made objects, other than tee markers and pins visible on the golf course, and shouldn't more clubs try to follow suit.

SPDB,

Could you tell us how many times you've played Atlantic, and on which holes the caddy has an advantage over the player in determining hole location.  Why are you reluctant to answer these questions ?

Ken Bakst,

I don't consider paths worn between a green and the next tee as cart paths.  When golfers have to go from point A to point B,
they usually take the most direct route, repetitively, thus creating the paths.
Other than out of the way paths up or down steep slopes leaving tees and approaching
# 2 green, there are no cart paths next to or paralleling the fairways.  I think Atlantic did a very good job in eliminating clutter from the golf course.

Even the lightening shelters are built into and under the ground rendering them invisible.

I have the feeling that Friar's Head will also project and convey that natural feeling to the golfer, eliminating unecessary man made objects from the golf course and hiding any cart paths necessary on steep slopes.

Atlantic does have some redeeming qualities.  

[Ken Bakst]

Pat
I hope your comment about Atlantic having "some redeeming qualities" wasn't directed at me, because I never once said otherwise.  In fact, I, as you know, have played many enjoyable rounds of golf there!

I was just focused on the elements of your original quiz and taking issue with some of them, from a factual standpoint, because the debate (if you can call it that)seemed to be based on a golfer, without caddy, having zero information (which is untrue).  In fact, you originally stated that the course was "built with NO CART PATHS" which is not factually correct.  On the other hand, there were never tee-to-green cart paths, but rather cart paths connecting fairways to greens and tees and back to fairways, with carts kept to the fairways during play of the hole, and, in that regard, I think that's a great feature if carts are going to be made available.  But all of those original cart paths, which do not necessarily mirror the natural walking paths, still remain albeit with grass and sandy tire tracks.

Regarding the black, blue, white and yellow disks/monuments, did you forget to respond or choose to ignore?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ken Bakst,

The medal plates in the tee determine the course you are playing, the slope and rating of that course for the MGA.  They also serve as starting points for the workers who place the tee markers each day, balancing the golf course.  I don't consider MGA/Course yardage markers on the tee as unsightly, or intrusive.  I don't believe those plates have any information on them other than their color, which relates to the score card, relative to the course you are playing.

Dan Kelly initiated the craving for information in the form of maps, flag color codes, pin location sheets, etc., etc.
I never said the golfer had zero information at Atlantic, and I never said there weren't sprinkler heads with yardages at Atlantic.
The entire thrust of my post had to do with the uncluttered appearance of the golf course, without all kinds of artificial man made devices, providing a pristine view of the golf course.  Others took the thread in a different direction, and I couldn't resist chiding Dan Kelly when he became too serious after I had posted a smiley face   in a response.

There were no sprinkler heads with yardages at Pine Valley as of my last visit.  
The day you couldn't make NGLA I was so busy taking photos during my round I never bothered to look for a sprinkler cap, and can't recall if they have some that are marked.

But.... this brings up an interesting issue.

PV and NGLA which are well regarded courses,
provide a minimum of information, other than the score card, with the exception of the two directional flags behind the 3rd green at NGLA.  This lack of information doesn't detract from the architecture or the playing experience, especially at NGLA where one could cite eight blind holes.  The Old Course at St. Andrews and other UK courses might fall into the same category.

Thus the question arises, why supply this information, shouldn't UNCERTAINTY be an integral part of golf ?

I sure got that neat message at more than a few locations the morning we spent together.
If some of those views don't create questions and uncertainty in the golfers mind, they need to take up bowling.  

[Ken Bakst]

Pat
Thanks for the clarification.  I re-read your original post and you did say has no “monuments…indicating hole number, yardage, handicap, etc., etc.” and the monuments at AGC do only have logos on them.  So now that I understand that the "entire thrust of [your] post had to do with the uncluttered appearance of the golf course", which I didn’t pick up on for some reason because I was distracted by the ensuing debate   , yes I think that this would be a good trend that should be followed by at least private clubs that foster good caddie programs.  I don’t think it has anything to do with the architecture of the golf course, but it would certainly help the overall experience!

Funny you should mention the sprinkler heads at PV and NGLA, because I think about them quite frequently when trying to decide what to do with the sprinkler heads at FH.  

NGLA has no yardages or any markings on the sprinkler heads, so you are completely reliant on your caddy and/or your judgment and, like you, that has never impaired my enjoyment of that golf course.  In fact, I think it ranks #1 on the “fun meter”!  So that should tell you something.  

PV also has no yardages on their sprinkler heads, but they do have numbers on them to help the caddies know what the yardages are.  For example, a sprinkler head might have a "14" on it and the caddy has a sheet that tells him that "14" on hole #__ is xxx  yards.  I don’t fully understand this approach because while I am trying to figure out my yardage and visualize a shot, my caddy is often helping a playing companion, so knowing that the caddy is going to have to pace the yardage from that sprinkler, I pace it off to save time and then wait for him to come over and tell me that "14" on this hole is ___ yards, so the process seemed somewhat contrived/artificial (??).  Which left me with the opinion that we would be better off having either no information on the sprinkler head (the most traditional approach) or a single yardage.

One thought regarding your question about uncertainty.  At a windy site, UNCERTAINTY will always "be an integral part of golf" regardless of how much information you provide.  So I’m glad you "got that neat message at more than a few locations" when we were together!   And I don't think that the degree of uncertainty will be diminished if we choose to provide yardages on the sprinkler heads!  

[peter_p]

Boy am I glad I didn't chime in until Pat's recent explanation. Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes would both apply, except the yardage is on the tee plates.  
Regarding the comments about Atlantic's pinable areas (never seen the course),when a caddy gives me a yardage on the first hole I ask how he arrived at the number, say thank you and adjust according to the answer. Their answers can scare you. I hope they say the caddy master gives them a +/- sheet.

Pat,
  When playing a yardage free course I pace off distances between sprinkler heads, about 20 yards and see what patterns exist and how they relate to the green's front edge.  
  The highest compliment I ever got was from a LPGA player a long time ago (Amy Alcott was a rookie) who said my yardages were perfect all day. We were T3 the first day. Used this system after finding it pacing the course.

Pat: tried to find something about you in "who are you guys", but no listing. Are you the granddad of U Ark player/coach?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter,

Interesting that you brought up the spacing of sprinkler heads.  I too, pace their distance, usually getting 25-30 yard increments.  It does help.

With respect to caddies, my first test is usually on the first green.  I like to read my own putts, but every now and then seek confirmation.  The same goes for yardage.
It seems to me, that accuracy is more a function of the club you're at, and its perception of the game of golf.

I'm not related to any Razorbacks that I know of.

Ken Bakst,

I don't think yardages on sprinkler heads will detract from what you have at Friar's Head.  Remember, PV and NGLA have been around a long time, thus there is a general knowledge about those courses retained and used by caddies and players alike.  On the other hand, it would be pretty neat at Friar's Head to have just you and the golf course.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter,

Let me clarify what I was trying to say in the above post.

At clubs that take golf seriously, with golf as the prime reason for being there, the caddy programs, and the quality of the caddies are exceptional.

Pine Valley and National are two perfect examples.

I don't think I have ever had less than a good caddy at either site.

Their perception of distance, feel for the course that day, ability to read putts, and understanding of your game combined with the golfer, make a great team and insure an enjoyable game, provided you hold up your end.

On the other hand, some golfers like to go it alone, rarely asking the caddy for advice or reaffirmation.

But, for many, it is nice to know, that they are a reliable resource.

Dan Kelly and Kevin Reilly and others,

If we all played our first round at Friar's Head together, and there were just some tee markers in the ground, and cups in the green, and we had caddies, and it was their first time at Friar's Head as well.....
You would have one of the most enjoyable rounds of golf in your lifetime, especially with a little breeze up.

With the exception of my preference for a wet towel, I wouldn't need any other assistance.  I can always estimate distance, and club selection.

You would enjoy the golf course for its  unique topography, architecture, challenge, variety, and beauty, without the need for any artificial intrusions.

[TEPaul]

Dan Kelly:

Whoa, big fella, do not apologize for being undignified in your tone! I, for one, think you're most dignified in dissent (with Pat or anyone else), generally a most difficult thing to be and do! If you really are frustrated you might want to test the theory of contrary opinion (the true test of Devil's advocacy!). Just agree with Pat and if then he disagrees with you, you have him right where you want him!

Rich Goodale:

You did not force Pat to turn his incredible thinking on the stymie around and agree with you. I forced him to turn his thinking around and agree with me! You had little if anything to do with it (except maybe to agree with me). I am the world's expert on the stymie, its history and all the ramifications of its meaning and applications and don't ever forget that!

Frankly, it would do you well to remember the simple dictate on here that when you disagree with me, you're totally wrong on all counts--it's pretty much just automatic! Don't even bother to respond to this, it's nonnegotiable, not debatable and just happens to be the way things are--get used to it!

Phew, I don't know why I don't do that more often--it really feels great!

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