The Bridge and East Hampton

[Patrick_Mucci]

The October/November edition of the MET Golfer, a terrific pulication by the MET Golf Association, has a nice article on both The Bridge and EastHampton, complete with some great photos.  

Also mentioned as perhaps the most spectacular course between Shinnecock and Garden City, is Friar's Head, though no pictures are included.

For information on how to obtain this edition, and other items of interest from the MGA, contact:
www.mgagolf.org

[Dan Allen]

I have been hearing a lot of talk about Friars Head. Does anyone have an idea when it will be finished and what the green fees will be?

[Tim_Weiman]

Dan Allen:

My understanding is that the "green fees" at Friar's Head will be $300,000.

And the course might be open next year.  Maybe.

[ed_getka]

Wow, and I thought Pebble was expensive.

[Matt_Ward]

Gentlemen:

Trust me -- as one of the few people to have played The Bridge thus far the course in my mind is one already one of the top five to play on Long Island. See The Briddge thread from a couple of weeks ago for more complete info and decsriptions.

I would place The Bridge in such elite company as Shinnecock, National, GCGC and Bethpage Black. I know many of you are saying ... "wait a second let's not be so hasty!" I absolutely loved the course!

Have not played Friar's Head, but am eagerly looking forward to seeing it as well. Long Island is clearly the leader in quality golf for such a small area of land.

Regards,

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Spoken like a true Golf Digest Panelist.

Matt, I haven't seen the Bridge yet, (Maybe never will) but I will rely on some pretty insightful people that describe it to me as one of the worst new experiences in golf.

We definitely need to go have that beer!

[Will E]

Matt,
Wow, some statements.
How is the routing at The Bridge.
Has Atlantic decided on its routing yet?
I played Black Lake in MI. and needed a compas and a map to find my way between holes.
You can tell I'm a big RJ fan right?
I'll take your word for it though, it must be real "special".

[BarnyF]

TommyN,

Is it my Gateway or is it just you...What brand of car do you hate just so I can buy one in my search to reinforce my status as the Anti-Tommy.

[NAF]

Matt,

After being fortunate enough to see the Bridge and Friar's Head back to back this past weekend, I can say that many here would view them thru different prisms..It depends on what floats your boat. Knowing the classical orientation of most here, I think those in the discussion group will prefer Friar's Head. Some will like both designs.

I would love to comment more but promised my generous hosts that I would be tight lipped on the subject..Let me say, both pieces of property are spectacular...

[GeoffreyC]

The article Pat refers to is very well done.

The MET golfer is a worthwhile publication available for a nominal charge to non-MET area members (I think its $10 per year).  I would recommend it if only to get an idea about whats going on at all the fine clubs in this section.

I'm told the $10 fee is going towards a military defense fund to fend off the invading army from the GAP lead by general Tom Paul and Major Cirba.  

[TEPaul]

Au Contraire!  

I have great respect from the MET Golf Association and I wouldn't think of a territorial war with them--everything I've said about that was for the informational consumption of Pat Mucci anyway, but he's onto me now.

Seriously though, it's not really the Met or GAP that's overlapping territorially, it's that both of us are heavily into New Jersey and where exactly does that leave The New Jersey Golf Association but in a major squeeze from both the north and the south.

This is no joke and the instance that made it most apparent was Metedeconk G.C. about eight years ago. They joined NJGA first, I believe, then they joined the MET and thirdly they were looking into joining GAP too probably because of our GAP Team matches.

The problem was that all three of us sell the GHIN System and in our case at that time it was a requirement of ours that a club buy it from us to join. So I went in there and told them that and their response was and rightly so; "We bought the GHIN system from NJGA, then the MET wanted to sell it to us and now you're telling us we have to buy it from you too. What the hell is going on here, it's the same damn product and three associations are demanding we buy the same product three times??"

Pretty good point there so I called the Chairman of the USGA's GHIN Committee and asked him what the USGA thought about this (GHIN is the USGA's System) and he said; "Oh we just devolve the system on out to the regional associations and they can do whatever they want with it whereever they want to."

So you can see what I mean and how nuts this can look to the consumer/customer (Metedeconk). That's when I realized that some sense has to be organized into this regional overlap. But the jokes about GAP raiding the MET are just that, jokes! That is unless Pat Mucci gives me any crap, then I am coming up there and swiping GCGC from him!

[TEPaul]

More to the point of this thread, The Bridge and Easthampton. Both clubs have something in common. Both had super George Tiska grow them in, so George worked for both Ben and Bill at Easthampton and Rees at the Bridge.

George, I'm sure, has some interesting observations on that and did say it was great working for two such wonderful designers although the experiences were vastly different.

[Patrick_Mucci]

While a few photos don't provide a thorough examination, they sure looked good to me.

[Matt_Ward]

I just hope people would try to refrain from posting the murky "I head from some people that The Bridge is not what it's cracked up to be" comments UNTIL they themselves actually play the course.

I've said before there are some people on GCA who really believe Rees Jones doesn't know golf architecture from a hole in the ground. These same people also believe anything classic designed ... circa 1950 and before is absolutely brilliant, but anything modern is usually a waste of time.

I urge anyone to play The Bridge BEFORE making broad comments about the quality or lack thereof of the course simply because of what people have "HEARD" from others.

TommyN:

Let's still grab the beer, but when people, who you claim are insightful about golf course design say The Bridge is "one of the worst new experiences in golf" I have to wonder what they saw and I missed.

I played the course unlike some who have posted and simply walked a few holes. I actually think it's one of Rees best designs -- quite possibly his finest (although I have not played Ocean Forest).

The roll of the land adds to the quality of the shots and each of the greens is angled to favor a certain particular position off the tee. You have to have the right combination of power, finese and accuracy and I tip my hat to George Tiska for the superb playing conditions given the young age of the course. The on-course beauty in tandem with off-course beauty is a superb marriage. The demands on shotmaking are consistent throughout 18 holes and I believe the holes are wonderfully differentiated between long and short.

Yes, the walk is definitely not an easy stroll, but when people say let's get courses that favor walking then The Bridge is clearly in that camp.

I played the course from the tips and know firsthand that you must play at a consistent high level throughout the round. Rees didn't follow previous patterns that many have objected to and I think when more people see the course I believe they will concur it is one of LI's top five courses.

Yes, it's bold statement on my part but one I will be quick to defend.

Regards,

[Tom_Doak]

Matt,

I believe it would have been much better politics to declare The Bridge one of the "top 10" courses on Long Island, and not "top 5."  "Top 10" on Long Island still means VERY VERY good; top 5 seems to discount The Creek, Piping Rock, Maidstone, and a couple of other pretty good ones.

And could The Bridge really be any better than fifth in your mind, with the other four you mention?

I haven't seen the place since it was a racetrack; all I'm saying is it's better to be a little more circumspect about your pronouncements, especially as a panelist who wants his ratings taken seriously.

[TEPaul]

I don't know Rees's courses all that well and I've not played The Bridge. I did get a tour of the course a couple of months ago from the super, George Tiska, though.

The bridge looks to me like a very different course with its height, otherworldly visuals from up there, drama, width, elevation changes etc. I don't think we even saw more than about 12 holes. My sense from some of those tees is that it might be a new experience with the sensation of watching the ball "hang in the air".

But I gotta say, if The Bridge is one of the worst new experiences in modern golf things are really looking up--despite the fact that a lot of the time at The Bridge you are really looking down!

[TEPaul]

Tom Doak:

In the broad scheme of things--an undeniable point you make!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matt, I think my point was very well reitierated by Tom Doak, as saying it is in the Top 5 is a little too strong of pronouncement, if you ask me. Yes, we will enjoy that beer!

Barney F,[b/] Enjoy the ride in your "new" Ford Pinto.

Tell Ken I send my best.

[Tim_Weiman]

This seems pretty wild.

Matt Ward describes The Bridge in the same company as Shinnecock or The National.

Tommy Naccarato quotes someone (I don't know who???) calling The Bridge as "one of the worst new experiences in golf".

Wow!

I'm having trouble believing either statement.  Perhaps that's not saying much as they are both pretty extreme.

However, to my mind Tommy's comment seems the more objectionable.

Tommy, what's the point quoting some anonymous person?

Are we to assume this person is neither willing to go on record with their views nor willing to spell them out in more detail even if it is their own anonymous post?

Did you let someone goad you into another round of "bashing"?

Matt Ward:

You might want to stay away from that "trust me" line.  Most people will probably go in the opposite direction when they hear that.

If you think a course like the Bridge is in the same company as venues like Shinnecock, just say so.  People will surely want to make up their own mind and aren't likely to "trust" many people on such claims.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tim,
I have heard reports from five people who have seen or played The Bridge.

Four of them whose identities will remain anonymous have had less then admirtable things to say about the place. (I respect these opinions because they are in fact sometimes different then my own, but I respect their abilities to decipher average-great/average-horrible) The other, Matt Ward is enthusiastic enough about it that he declares it the one of the five best on the island.

Is it me, but doesn't anyone get tired of seeing the same thing over and over, everytime a Rees Jones (More specifically), Tom Fazio, Robert Trent Jones Jr., Jack Nicklaus course that is situated on a glamourous piece of property that is over-rated by every panel, and falls quickly after the newness wears off?

Believe me/Don't believe me, but I have not heard a single good thing about the Bridge that would put it in a class of "Ground breaking-mind blowing-creative" (A "10") golf architecture that practices the principles set forth from our forebearers of this great game.

I'm sure the Superintendent is one of the best guys in the world, as is the guy that helped you get to see it. But truth be known, I will more then likely not see this course because there are others I think are more worthy of study while in that area. Those courses are worth my time and effort and more then anything worth the getting out and climbing to the top of the highest mountain and screaming--"Freaking Phenominal!!!!!!"

I don't know about you, but I'm in this to see the brilliant golf architecture that is expressed so eloquently by so many that particpate here. (NGLA, Shinnecock, GCGC, Bethpage Black, etc.) Some of them are Rees Jones fanatics. So be it, I just don't see them comparing anything Rees has done to the courses mentioned above and saying that they are comparable. I fact I don't see anyone also comparing them to anything to King Fazio has done either.

That is my take and I'm sticking to it.

We are talking a level of greatness here. Nothing less.

Lets stop cheapening "Great" by allowing ourselves to be taken in by swill that is probably going to be off the any Top 100 list in less then ten years anyway.

[Matt_Ward]

Just a few rebuttal comments.

Tom Doak:

I take very seriously what I say about the courses I play -- not from secret sources or from others who have not actually been to The Bridge.

Yes, it's my opinion. Last I checked this is America and given the range of courses I've played I believe I am more than qualified given the range of other opinions offered on GCA.

I've played everything on LI quite a few times. I have not seen or played Friar's Head or East Hampton so I cannot comment until next year when I hope to visit and play both of them.

Let's flip the subject the other way
around -- quite a few people have a hard-on against Rees Jones. They see his name and AUTOMATICALLY it becomes, "Oh, it's a Rees Jones course." Does Rees design bad courses? Yes, he does and I've said it on GCA and to him personally. Other architects also design poor ones! I think he respects my opinion because I call it like I see it and I base my opinions on what I understand to be sound deesign principles that test different levels of players for 18 complete holes. I try to visit all sectors of the country in being sure to see what is really going on in golf design. I don't just stay in NJ and NY.

I also don't give "free" passes -- whether they have a big name in the industry or are just starting out.

If people don't take my opinion seriously Tom, I say fine. But, I say to them, please do me a big favor and ACTUALLY go and play the course BEFORE piping in with comments from sources never named. That is gutless.

TommyN:

Still want the beer, but I like to know SPECIFICALLY what people did not like about The Bridge? I've posted my thoughts on the course in "The Bridge" from a thread a few weeks ago so my comments need not be repeated.

Tim:

Go play the course and see for yourself. I know what I saw and I have no hestitation standing by my comment. I have the highest respect for other classic designs on LI -- The Creek, Piping Rock, Maidstone, Fisher's Island, etc, etc. Hell, I even really like Bethpage Red and it's often overlooked because of big brother ... The Black.

What really amazes me is that when a new modern course makes a splash the automatic tendency is for many peple to say it CAN NEVER compare with the ones that have had universal appeal for so long and continue to do so. I don't buy in to that elitist dogmatic belief. Yes, I have skepticism as much as the next person but I honestly try to keep an open mind. If people question my credentials I say OK, please enlighten me about your credentials. No doubt many people have more insight than I do. But tell me why I am wrong with some sort of specifics. I outlined my hole-by-hole specifics on The Bridge a few weeks ago.

I enjoy classic design courses and I had the opportunity to play a grand one last week in Lehigh CC. What a superb course!!!

I also really like new designs that I saw this year as a GD panelist and many are so different but were utterly appealing. They include:

The Kingsley Club
Carnegie Abbey
Wolf Creek (NV)
Arcadia Bluffs
Pacific Dunes

Each of the above is serious contenders for even higher recognition and I absoluetly loved them all. Clearly, all are different but sensational efforts by each architect ...
especially Pacific Dunes!

If someone disbelieves my opinions I say look at the full body of opinions I have stated. They should count for something -- I put my name to what I say and I take whatever heat comes my way.

Regards,

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matt, I have heard basically the same critique I have heard about most Rees Jones courses. Horrible contrived bunkering, that is both repetiocious and nauseating. More mounds, mounds, mounds, mounds, and more mounds.

(I believe there is a name for them and they are called Rees' Pieces and when I inquired about them, I was told, "yes, Rees' Pieces.")

I also have heard of a very long stretch between #15 and 16. There are elevation changes on this course, no? I would assume for the severe site, it must be of a length that is difficult for the average high-handicapper. However, Matt, since when were you one to turn your back on yardage? I'll take a guess that the course is 7100 yards, even though the site is plenty worthy of a course at 6400+/-

I have been also told that the view is quite beautiful, which is great, but how it figures into the ARCHITECTURE, I'm not quite sure and neither are the people I know that have played and seen it.

Another thing is that you seem to be able to admit to Rees, in person, that he does in fact design golf courses of a "lesser" character. Does he agree and offer you an excuse why?

[Matt_Ward]

TommyN:

Appreciate your comments, but the criticsm of The Bridge is still being influenced by what people have seen of Rees work in PRIOR courses ... again, the "it's a Rees Jones course" quote.

The have allowed that to spillover to his most recent works which, in my opinion, are quite impressive -- some, like The Bridge, others include Olde Kinderhook (Albany, NY area) and Nantucket (which some on GCA feel he overworked the site) ... I don't share that view.

Tommy, not all courses, by any stretch, that I favor, are long layouts. Check out the other thread ("longish par-4's") and I spell out my top 50 in America. A number of them are classic designs which top out at 6,600 yards or so.

Second, I have discussed comments with Rees about some of the things that disturbed me or that I have heard from qualified raters from among several publications.

I know he is aware of these elements and has attempted through a number of most recent designs to modify, and in some cases, alter his approach.

I am just not in favor of people speaking in cloak and dagger terms without ever listing there names. From what you have personally posted I know you have strong opinions and I look forward to reviewing yours and others who take the time to understand golf design.
I am not a person to give a "free pass" to any architect and I think there are some on GCA who believe that if person "X" does a course then it must be good or bad simply because of that person and their perceived style as being the "right" way to design.

I see the recent efforts of Rees as being some of his finest work (have not played Ocean Forest) and I believe if and when others play The Bridge they will form their own personal opinions. I think, if they are really fair, they will clearly enjoy the course. That's just my humble opinion.

Keep that beer nice and cold when we meet.

Regards,

[Tim_Weiman]

Tommy N:

I have no idea whether The Bridge is worth a special visit, nor have I talked with anyone who has seen the place.

Still, I have to reinforce my comments on your original post.

If the most accurate way to sum up the views of the five people you spoke to is that The Bridge is "one of the worst new experiences in golf", that's fine.

But, I would have thought discussions with five people would have produced more in the way of detail.

As I have neither the time or money to visit every venue I might like to see, for me THE VALUE IS IN THE DETAIL.  Posts along the lines "typical Rees Jones" don't really help.

Your passion for "greatness" is wonderful.  Don't cheapen it with one liners that clearly fit into the category of "bashing".

Yes, I get tired of all the marketing material that surrounds new projects.  My posts over the past couple years regarding Doonbeg should make this clear.

Moreover, I share your interest in focusing on the really good stuff.  Hell, why not?

Matt Ward:

My comments are really meant in the spirit of "coaching" as we say in the corporate world.

If you say things like "trust me", people won't.  If you suggest you have "more insight", it's even less likely they will trust your views!

If you happen to appreciate modern designs more than others on this site, no problem.

But, why suggest people are being "elitest" when they express preference for classic era designs?

Maybe they just looked at both classic and modern designs with an open mind and decided that generally speaking, the old boys produced better work.

Hell, I can't think of any reason to be biased against modern designs.  By contrast, I'd love it if modern designers produced more work like a Pacific Dunes!

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Tim,
I noticed you made a comment about Friar's Head and "maybe" opening next year as if that was a bad thing. I sensed an implication that was not particularly positive, and I have to say I disagree with such an implication. To build a great course takes time. A lot of time, fidgeting, sitting on things, leaving for a while and coming back and re-evaluation. This is why Pine Valley is so incredible in the details. Four years of obsessing over the details. The obvious lack of serious time devoted to details (except cart path hiding) is why I find the work of Tom Fazio and Rees Jones work lacking so much, there is so little there that seems like anyone really took a lot of effort and cared about doing something fresh or creative or inviting or original. I know people admire the McDonalds "wow they built it for $32 million in just four months" way of doing things, but personally, it shows pretty quickly and has undermined the health of the golf industry. So perhaps I was wrong, but I just sense you consider the slow progress of Friar's Head to be a big negative, but I happen to think it's a tribute to Ken Bakst for using the opportunity to do something more substantial.
Geoff