[Dan Kelly]

On another thread, Gib Papazian refers to Pasadera G.C. as "another Nicklaus debacle."

Please indulge a newcomer. Is it the consensus judgment here that Mr. Nicklaus and his underlings are bad architects -- more likely to produce a debacle than a gem?

If so:

Which courses are the Nicklaus debacles, and which, if any, are the gems (precious and semi-precious)?

Why are the debacles debacles? Do the Nicklaus debacles share a consistent set of vices?

Why is Nicklaus a less-than-stellar architect? He certainly understands the game. Are his flaws as an architect a product of his business organization, or possibly of some personal failing reflected in that organization?

And, finally, the Big One: Would golf architecture (and the game, generally) around the world have been better off if Jack Nicklaus had quietly retired from his competitive career, returned to Ohio to build Muirfield Village, and never given golf-course development and design another thought?

[Gib_Papazian]

Dan,
I don't know if there is a "consensus judgement" here about anything.

At last count, I have played some 18 Nicklaus courses. Of those, Sherwood is the only one that I felt had merit. The rest were just a repetition of the same indulgent themes.

HIGH CUT HIGH CUT HIGH CUT HIGH CUT FORCED CARRY CONTRIVED ELEVATED GREEN HIGH CUT HIGH CUT ELEVATED GREEN SURROUNDED BY CAVERNOUS BUNKERS HIGH CUT HIGH CUT until you want to walk off the course, get in the car and leave.

Even when he designed his faux St. Andrews course at Grand Cypress (The New), Jack turned the damned Road Hole green around to encourage a fade! And the hole is a dogleg to the right!

My primary gripe with his work is, and continues to be that when I am done playing:

A. I'm glad to be done.

B. I'm physically exhausted.

C. I'm not spiritually refreshed.

D. I'm frustrated.

E. I had zero fun.

Of the 10 worst courses in terms of money spent vs. architectural creativity and merit I have ever played are dominated by Nicklaus and Rees!

In fact, I'll go on record as saying the worst golf course I have ever suffered through in my life is what used to be known as the "Nicklaus Resort" at PGA West.

Other annoyances:

Pinehurst National
Coyote Creek
Coyote Creek Valley
Grand Cypress North, South and East
Pasaputrid
Everything in Scottsdale

How many more swallows of rotten stew do I need to know I do not like his cooking?

[Will E]

Gib,
Would you please tell us how you really feel.
That was classic.

[BillV]

Dan

I think the meat of this is the meat of the process of creating new courses.  It's not just Nicklaus.  Recently Tom Fazio was asked (Albeit by conference call due to aero-techno-problems) in front of 50 or so of whom at least 25 frequent this board "If he would ever consider building a course in the classic style." He completely lost any respect of those by claiming to not know what that kind of course was.  Unfortunately, we never got to ask a follow-up question nor suggest criteria which would define such a course.

It's not Nicklaus or Fazio or any one per se who constructs these debauchles, but rather a modern move that is "Less Taste, Less Filling" to paraphrase a well-know imitation beer substitute.

Style over substance, customer satisfaction vs. integrity of the history of the game, architecture as a business rather than an art form..... any one of a number of ways of answering the question.

There are different driving forces, certainly in the moneyed end of golf course architecture about style and name recognition.  Photographability and visual experience rather than golf skill experience.  150 top 20 courses in the next 10 years.

Does that answer the question sufficiently?

[BillV]

Oh, and golf surely would have been better off if Nicklaus had payed more attention to all of the holes he played, and especially the holes that gave him the most fits rather than the ones that suited his style of play.

[ed_getka]

I have only played Jack's course up in Grand Traverse Mich. Its called the Bear I think. I played 36 holes there that day and enjoyed it. The elevated fairways were strange, falling off about 4-5 feet on either side, so that missing the fairway resulted in a semi-blind shot. The greens were well-bunkered with some deep pits, but they were okay as I remembered. You had to hit the green and stay or else getting up and down wasn't likely. Too many water holes for my taste and occasional forced carries, but not too bad if playing the appropriate tees. The greens had a fair amount of contour and I remember them being interesting. Overall, I think this course didn't offer a lot of options for playing the holes, but I don't usually play the same course twice in the same day if I'm not enjoying myself. Also, Jack uses some ugly mounding as I remember, but it didn't really affect play.

[RobertWalker]

The reason that Nicklaus's work is deplored on this site is, for the most part, the fact that most of his work looks manmade, and that his courses favor a player with Jack's game from Jack's prime.
Designers that are appreciated on this DG are Hanse, Doak, and Coore & Crenshaw. They are more liked because they tend to move less earth, and their courses favor the ground game on an under-watered course, as opposed to the more lush and green drop and stop courses of Nicklaus.

I suspect that Nicklaus Design are more willing to take on as much work as thay can, whereas the others are more interested in actually doing the shaping themselves.

When I spoke with Bill Coore in the summer of 2000, I was impressed with how he "searches" for holes on a parcel rather than "designing" and fitting his designs into the land. This means that he has to spend a lot of time on the site himself. I like Coore & Crenshaw's approach. They take away the land that is not the golf hole, and leave the rest.

[Gib_Papazian]

Please note Egan's post on the Worst Hole thread.

[Jeff_Stettner]

I think I read once, maybe three or four years ago, that Nicklaus has a clause in his contracts that allow him to take his name off a project if the golf course is not maintained to his standards. Has any of us ever played a Nicklaus course that allowed for the ground game? I'm not suggesting every one of his courses be firm and fast, but surely one in the almost 200 designs his firm has cranked out should show a patch of brown in that glorious sea of green.

[Ran Morrissett]

Dan,

More than any architect firm with which I am familiar, Nicklaus's team raised the bar across southeast Asia with some very good, challenging designs. The non-Nicklaus courses that I saw frequently were an insult to the Asian golfer with shallow bunker and no strategic merit.

In addition, his work at Cabo del Sol is probably his finest and would easily address Gib's A-E concerns.

Conversely, his few courses in Australia, Ireland, and Scotland that I've seen are horrible.

Nonetheless, when I think of Nicklaus the designer, I think first and foremost of the quality built and strategically sound courses that he brought to some of the more remote spots in the world.

And for that, I am very thankful that he got into course architecture.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

I think you're being a bit too tough on the Golden Bear. I've played at least 25 of his designs and generally the comments about mass production are generally true. I quickly think of how St. Andrews (Hastings-on-Hudson) was mangled. Ditto Coyote Creek and all of Grand Cypress. But the issue of Jack's career is really about two elements --early Jack work and most recent efforts.

On the plus side?

Did you ever play the original Geronimo Course at Desert Mountain -- opned in the early 90's? The newer Chiricahua Course? Montreux in Reno? Colleton River Plantation in SC? TPC at Snoqualmie Ridge in WA?

Until Lyle Anderson changed the 13th and 14th holes at the Geronimo I absolutely loved the course because of its terrain, vistas and varying challenging holes. The finishing par-3 18th is a stunner. The Cochise, the site of the Tradition, is nothing more than a junior league version.

From my recent reading of Golfweek / re: Lyle Anderson interview, there will be a sixth course at Desert Mountain -- The Outlaw.

Have you ever seen Jack's design of Old Works in Anaconda, Montana? Just to prove that all of Jack's courses don't cost you your Visa and MasterCard put together the fee is about $35 to play!

The problem I see with Jack's courses is that too often Jack stayed early in his career with a set package that did exactly what Gib mentioned. Not all of them were that bad like The Bear (hideous mounding and a number of forced carries) -- but it seemed that Jack and his design team were more concerned with cranking them out instead of real detailed undertakings.

The sad part with some of the most recent work by Jack is that he took much of the criticism to heart and went the other way with softish features geared towards beauty but really lacking in hole quality. One example is the work at Superstition Mountain / Prospector Course which will probably be the host for the Tradition in 02. The course is beautifully situated but the holes are just bland.

Just a few thoughts ...

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ran,

Your post seems to hint that perhaps Nicklaus had/has some really talented associates working for him in Asia, and maybe a group not as talented in Europe.

Nicklaus Design was finishing a new course called "The Northern Bear" [great name, eh!] in Edmonton this past summer while we were working on Blackhawk, over on the opposite side of town.

As I understand it, The Northern Bear deal was first signed with Nicklaus 10 years ago. The original developer paid a $1 million design fee -- in advance -- and then had to shut down construction shortly after it began due to a lack of funds!

A full decade later, another developer has finally completed the project. The Northern Bear will probably open in the spring.

If Jack was pulling in $1 million per course 10 years ago, what's he charging today?

[Chris_Hervochon]

Not that I think Nicklaus is a great designer or anything BUT...
I do think that his earlier work was better.  The courses that were "man-sized" and a pain in the buttocks to play generally seem to me like they have more character.  Mass produced? Ugly? Man-made? No attention to detail? I agree with all of you.  
P.S.- those chocolate drop mounds are the most god-forsaken things I have ever seen and they should all be plowed over.  Just my opinion.

[Paul_Daley]

We once had a fantastic course in Australia known as The Australian at Kensington. It was was one of those wind-swept British style layouts that attracted rave reviews from all new-comers. In the mid-1970s and thanks to a billionaire named Kerry Packer, the Australian Open was hijacked off rotation, and for a number of years became the virtual property of this club. Sadly it suffered a complete make-over and was "modernized" by Big Jack. The character changed overnight, and it became a stylised robotic course. Condition wise, among the best I have seen, but a backward step architecturally.

When I played the new layout some time ago, I stumbled upon a big, dead, elephant in the middle of one green. Not being David Attenborough, I couldn't make out if its pedigree was Indian or African. I duly
three-putted and got out of there to avoid being stampeded.

Too many courses, too little time, too little personal attention to detail.

[BillV]

Matt

I am shocked!  Simply shocked!  That with your high long ball that you would so defend Nicklaus.  

He did raise the bar for conditioning.  Was that for better or worse?

[Jeff_Lewis]

Sorry to reply so belatedly, but...if there is  GCA Hall of Fame for great postings, I think Gib's of 10/14 should definitely be nominated!

[Bill_McBride]

Gib, your selection of PGA West Resort Course as the worst golf course ever played is just another reason I'm looking forward to playing with you next month!  I had the misfortune to play that course maybe ten years ago when the green fee was an outrageous $110 and just hated it.  Every hole looked like the one before. Every green was a shelf cut out of the front of a huge (man made) mound, with the next tee on the other side of the mound so every tee shot was downhill. And to cap off the whole experience, that was the first time I ever saw a GPS on a cart.  My buddy said, "hey, this is cool."  My reply was unprintable.  I actually like some of the holes at Grand Cypress, but that par 5 along the lake with the green designed as one large chocolate drop is ridiculous!

[THuckaby2]

Take this with an ocean of salt given I still think Coyote Creek - Valley ain't all that bad a course....

but...

Cabo del Sol is just plain wonderful.  I concur with the Morrisett review on this site.

TH

[SPDB]

I have never liked Nicklaus' designs. I think they are contrived, and the incessant reference to "The Bear" annoys me to no end. It's like every course he builds is a testament to his own ego (understanding, of course, that this is the developers fault, not Jack's - i'll still say it).

However, I had occasion to play what I thought was a splendid Nicklaus design in the Poconos named Great Bear. The ubiquitous Bear inclusion in the name notwithstanding, I thought this course was an absolute knockout. The par 3's are a little lacking, but the 2-3 shotters are terrific.

The whole course plays pretty much in the lee of a long ridge, visible from nearly every hole, and takes advantage of some wonderful topo throughout the course. And strangely enough there are more dogleg lefts than right.

Is anyone familiar with this course. It is my favorite course to play in the autumn, when the foliage provides a welcome diversion from the lackluster scores you are putting up.  

[Mike_Cirba]

SPDB,

I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of Jack's Great Bear CC in the Poconos.  It is surely one of his best, as well as one of his most unheralded works.  BillV played it as well, and I recall him having a very favorable impression.  

Another underrated Jack Track is Breckenridge in Colorado.  It suffers a little bit from the "high fade" syndrome mentioned by others, but also has quite a number of clearly first-rate holes.

[JohnV]

Gib, while I concur with you on how terrible the Nicklaus Resort course at PGA West is, it isn't even the worst course on the property.  Haven't you made it to the Norman course yet?

I will concur with Matt that the TPC at Snoqualamie is a good course.  Lots of different shots and even an interesting uphill hole or two.

I certainly wasn't thrilled with The Challenge at Manele Bay which seemed to be the epitomy of cart ball and was probably unplayable for the high handicapper with the forced carries.

I enjoyed his course at St. Mellion in southwest England, but I played it back in 1988 when I didn't understand as much.  I'd like to replay it some day just to see if I still did like it.

[Dan Kelly]

Tom Huckaby --

I agree, re: Cabo del Sol -- though I liked Eldorado quite a bit more.

Matt Ward --

I'm not being hard on the Golden Bear. I didn't express ANY opinion (primarily because I've played very few Nicklaus courses). I asked for others' views; that's all.

[Frank J]

I like the Muirfield Village course, although I think there is too much evidence of a shrine to himself inside the Clubhouse.  Was Jones similarly immodest when it came time to do the Clubhouse at Augusta, or did Roberts provide the cover?

...and, if I am allowed to bring up holiday golf, I also liked Manele Bay, which exceeded my expectations for what it was.  It was much better than the Lodge's course, IMHO.  How do these compare to most of the courses in Hawaii?

I wonder if the issue is his prominence, which of course makes it fashionable to shoot at him.  If the courses were designed by Jack Smith, would we single them out as disasters, or view them as decent efforts?

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

Mea culpa!

When people look at the Nicklaus record they should avoid the broad brush at bay -- there are some really interesting and solid designs in his portfolio as well as the turkeys people have already cited.

Regards,

[Doug Wright]

I've had the fortune or misfortune depending on your perspective to have played six of the nine Nicklaus designs in Colorado, and three elsewhere. I rank them below, with brief commentaries. You'll notice that all six of the Nicklaus designs I've played in Colo were built in the 1980s, which many here view as part of the Dark Ages of modern design.  Gib's and others' criticism of Jack's design theory at the time (and perhaps at all times)--to design courses in his own image that best fit his high left to right ball flight is certainly accurate in my experience. His courses are almost routinely "second shot" golf courses, with generous landing areas and pretty tight, well bunkered green complexes. Yet I think he (or his colleagues) know how to locate greensites, and they don't do a bad job of using the land for routing. I also agree with the annoying use of  "Bear" this and "Bear" that, but hey that's marketing to the unwashed masses, right? Gotta get something in return for your $1 million design fee...

1. Cabo del Sol (Cabo San Lucas, Mexico) (1994) A very good routing that starts tamely on each nine and then runs to the seashore for the closing holes. There are good stretches of holes on each nine, and a  few holes where your can actually use the ground game!My favorite hole is the long par 4 5th, which favors a running approach). See GCA course description.

2. Castle Pines Golf Club (Castle Rock, Colo--The International Course)(1981) (A spectacular piece of property, with elevation changes galore that Nicklaus generally put to good use. The short par 4 2d, split fairway 3rd, uphill 9th and downhill 10th are excellent holes because they either require decisionmaking or precision.or both. Also the greensite at the par 5 #8 is cool, with a lot of options for those who are short or left. There are some lame "collection bunker" features and water features that look--and are--contrived and made for TV, and some of the greens don't seem to fit the holes very well. The course has been doctored Augusta style several times since it opened with mixed results by the founder, who wants this to be the ANGC of the West.).

3. Breckenridge GC (Breckenridge, Colo) (1987) (One of Jack's few (only?) munies. Maybe his only because the City of Breckenridge sued him after the greens failed to come in for 2 years at this high mountain town! A good mix of right and left doglegs and short and long par 4s and particularly good routing through the trees and wetlands on the back nine. The par 5s seem particularly good here. Awful 18th hole, though.).

4. Grand Haven GC (Palm Coast, Fla.)(1998)(The newest Nicklaus I've played. I liked that he toned down a lot of the goofiness and left solid golf holes. The Cape 3rd and the long par 4 16th with a fun tiered green were my favorites here. Another dog of an 18th, a very weak and uninteresting par 5).

5. Challenge at Manele (Lanai)(1993)(There are some forced carries that make this daunting for the less skilled player, and a lot of back and forth on the hillside, plus cartball. Much better than Norman's Experience at Koele, and some high drama on the cliff holes, but more for resort style photo opps than real golf.).

6. Meridian GC (Englewood, Colo)(1984) (I was a member here for 10 years so I learned to love high fades! The course is links style with a lot of wind that cries out for the ground game but unfortunately you can only play ground golf on maybe 2 holes; the rest require the high fade to well bunkered or water abutted greens, 12 of which have the same collection-type swales that cause balls to run off the greens into grass bunkers. Now that's not a bad thing in moderation as the chipping can be fun and interesting, but a dozen is way too many).

7. Country Club of The Rockies (Eagle, Colo)(1984)(Nicklaus's '80s design on steroids, plus Jack does Rees Jones, with mounds mounds everywhere and mountains of dirt moved. Too bad, a great mountain valley location, it coulda been a contenda).

8. Castle Pines Country Club (Castle Rock, Colo) (1986) High end wannabe real estate development that only resembles Castkle Pines GC due to its adjacent location and the same name on the drawings. Bad--no terrible--topography imposed either by the developer or by Jack. Too many forced holes to mention.The 9th, a mid iron/wedge with no risk reward to an uphill green, is one of the worst holes anywhere.)

9. Ptarmigan GC (near Fort Collins, Colo) (1988)(Housing development golf at its worst. Jack's team mailed it in on this one.)

Doug

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