"The Road Hole", St. Andrew's best. . . .

[Steve S.]

I am a college student majoring in Turf Grass Management.  In my course I am taking a class called, Golf Course Design and Architecture.  In this class I have to write a paper on the famed 17th at The Old Course.  I would appreciate any thoughts on why this is such a great hole, what makes designers want to copy it, what makes it a bad hole, names of designers who have copied it, etc.  Anything on this hole would be greatly appreciated.

[D. Bradford]

I think the Road Hole is a great hole for three reasons.

First, it presents the golfer with clear-cut do-or-die choices.  The golfer may hit over the hotel sheds on his drive which will set up a second shot to the green, or he may safely play to the left side of the fairway.  On his second shot, he can attempt to go for the green, which is nestled between the Road Bunker and the road itself.

Second, the hole is very distinct -- even the occasional golf fan is familiar with the hole.  A drive over a hotel.  A road in play.  One of the deepest and steepest bunkers in the world.  One isn't likely to forget this hole.

Third, like most holes at St. Andrews, the natural slope of the ground lends itself to strategy.  Consider the green site.  The bunker is like a whirlpool, gathering running shots from a great distance away.  For any running approach to this green, the difference between ending up in the bunker and ending up on the road is very small.  Attacking the green is all about precision, angles, and planning.

Hope this helps.  I'm sure others will have a lot to say as well.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Steve,
When I played the road hole in June, 2000, there was no way to hit the fairway without going over the shed. I found the hole to be out of character with the rest of the course. Most of the holes at TOC give options off the tee, the road hole does not (unless they were just growing rough on the left for the open). Also, on a course dominated by large greens, the 17th is very small. I know the hole is famous, but I think there are better holes on the course.

[kilfara]

Don,

I must respectfully disagree...the Road Hole certainly does offer options off the tee. It's the same risk/reward conundrum that one faces innumerable other times on the Old Course: do I play safe and away from trouble, or do I go for the bold line and risk a stroke-and-distance penalty? (Usually the penalty is assessed on TOC when you tangle with its gorse; here it just happens to be the grounds of a hotel.) If you play out to the left, chances are you're accepting that it is going to be a three-shot hole anyway, so the growth or absence of rough shouldn't really matter (except perhaps to encourage you to push your "safe" line slightly to the right).

I'll agree that the green is somewhat out of character with those of the rest of the course, but I must concur with Mr. Bradford's points about why it works so well. It has more character (and history) than all 18 greens put together on 80-90% of the golf courses in the world, and it again poses several risk/reward conundrums, especially when the pin is more than halfway back from the front-right corner of the green: do I go for the pin? If yes, do I try to fly the ball there (esp. on one's third shot), or do I play for the low runner? If not, where do I play "safe" - short of the green? Long and left? The same risk/reward debate comes into play from near the road and from Road Bunker after one's third shot.

Steve, I'll be addressing the Road Hole some more in my Feature Interview on this website in the next week or so. So stick around!  

Cheers,
Darren

[RobertWalker]

When Nick Faldo won the British Open in 1990, he played the 17th as a 3 shotter. He made, I think, 2 4's and 2 5's. He did not risk a large number by not trying to make birdie.
What makes this hole great is that the average player can play for, and make 5 relatively easily, while a great player can play for 3 and make 8 in an instant.
When you add the short 18th, you get one of the great finshes in golf for all golfers.
The fact that these 2 holes offer something to all golfers is what makes these 2 holes great together.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Don,
You actually sent a literary spike down my spinal column on that one. The hole strikes severe panic on a whim. How excillirating!

However, I would have more then likely chosen Hole #13 for study simply because it is still one of the most strategic holes in
the game.

Steve, the best description to date is Brad Klein's in "Rough Meditations" There he explains the beauty and the horror of thinking that the 13th is the most feeble of pushovers, along with some hilarious tales of tourists who have played the hole with little thought.

I highly recommend it.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Darren,
I can only base my opinion of the 17th on what it was like when I played it, and when I was there the rough down the left side was at least 1 foot deep and not an option. One of my playing partners lost his ball and he was not far off the fairway. I realize it is blasphemy not to worship the hole, but it reminded me of holes that this DG love to hate, the only option off the tee being, how far do I hit it. OB right, unplayable rough left and a narrow fairway, meant 3 wood off the tee, 5 iron to the right front, chip and putt.
Do I think it is a good hole? Yes. Does it only work because of location and tradition? Yes. Do you want to see it recreated at the muni down the street? We rail against cart paths we see from the tee, but we worship a hole where asphalt is the major hazard?

Fire away.

(I'd much rather talk about the 14th)

[TEPaul]

I would suggest that "The Road Hole" is a great hole for a whole bunch of reasons. There is nothing remotely "formulaic" about it, that's for sure, and that fact alone has a ton of meaning. Is it "out of character"? Probably, but what does that mean exactly and isn't "in character" just another type  of formulaics? Is it fair? Whoa, not even close but what's the big deal about "fair"? Does it have options? You bet it does, but not the kind most people think of as design options! It has the ultimate progressive options (or whole hole options) of do you want to try for a birdie or par the hard way or settle for a relatively painless bogie? Or do you want to try to make a birdie or par the high risk way and maybe settle for something far worse. The hole produces a huge spectrum of scoring and a huge spectrum of thought and that to me is a pretty good test and barometer of a great hole. So much so in fact, that its par designation is almost meaningless and it then becomes a hole of the ultimate mano a mano, and what a great position to have such a hole!

If the "Road Hole" is such a great hole then why hasn't it been copied more often and really never has been except by MacDonald and then Raynor? Probably for all the reasons cited above. A guy like Lanny might conclude because architects "just ain't got the guts!"

Lastly, to use GoeffShac's very interesting "actual golf situations" as a reasonable test, this one story alone would make it great in my mind. I think the story has been reported once on Golfclubatlas but I'll do it again and if I get a small fact or two wrong in the story I'm sure Linc Roden or Dick Sayers will correct it.

This took place on the "Road Hole" in the  Walker Cup, probably in the 1950s or early 1960s. Bill Hyndman (of Huntingdon Valley) was in the last match of the last day of the Walker Cup. The captain was none other than Bobby Jones! Jones had told his team before the start of the Walker Cup that under no circumstances were they to try to hit the "Road Hole" in two.

Jones advised Hyndman on #17 that he needed a birdie and a par to halve the walker Cup on either of the last two holes and birdies on both to win it. Hyndman hit a great drive and Jones then took his directive off and told him to try for the green if he wanted to do it. Hyndman hit a spectacular shot onto the green and birdied "the Road Hole". Hyndman then parred #18 and secured a tie in the Walker Cup matches.

A few weeks later back at home in Huntingdon Valley Hyndman received an unexpected package. In it was a big photograph of "The Road Hole" from Jones with an inscription by him that read; "The single greatest shot I've every seen!" The photograph hung in Hyndman's house proudly for the rest of his life.

Any hole that can produce something like that is definitely great in my opinion!

[TEPaul]

robertWALKER:

Don't know what the year was that Jones was the captain of the Walker Cup but it was late in his life (he was quite crippled) and my sense is it was the very same time he got up and spoke at the R&A and gave that speech from his heart and soul that most all of us have seen and heard that still brings tears to the eyes of the Scots (and all of us).

[Kevin_Reilly]

Jones was captain in 1928 and 1930.

Hyndman did not play in the 1955 Walker Cup at TOC (captained by Bill Campbell).  The captain in the 1971 match was J. Winters.

But the story is still entertaining! Here's a good source for Walker Cup info:
http://www.walkercuphistory.com/

[ForkaB]

Tom et. al.

According to the "World Atlas of Golf" it was David Marsh (GBI) who hit a 5-iron onto the 17th to close out Hyndman in the 1971 Walker Cup, which GBI won 13-11.

Perhaps Jones (whether or not he was Captain) sent to photo to Hyndman to console him.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Forgot to mention that Hyndman was the second oldest player in WC history in that 1971 match! He was 55 years old.

[Dan King]

Mr. Jones came to St. Andrews in 1958 as captain of the inagural Eisenhower Cup.  He and the team almost didn't make it, losing an engine in flight and making an emergency landing in Newfoundland.  I can't find a record of who was on that 1958 U.S. team, but they did lose in a playoff to Australia.

Mr. Jones speech also wasn't at the R&A, it was at the Younger Auditorium at the University. The Freedom of the City allowed Mr. Jones to "cart shells, to take divots, and to dry his wash upon the first and 18th fairway of the Old Course."

Dan King
dking@danking.org

quote:"I could take out of my life everything except my experiences at St. Andrews, and I'd still have a rich, full life."
--Robert Jones

[Dan King]

I found something:

"Australia seemed to have the inaugural event won with a total of 918, but a birdie three on the perilous Road Hole by Bill Hyndman III helped America to a tie."

So the story is true, it just wasn't the Walker Cup, it was the 1958 Eisenhower Cup.  And America only held a temporary tie, losing in a playoff the next day.

The rest of the American team that was captained by Mr. Jones was Charlie Coe, Billy Joe Patton and Dr. Frank Taylor. The Australian team was Robert Stevens, Bruce Devlin, Doug Bachli and Peter Toogood.

Dan King
dking@danking.org

quote:"Sir Guy Campbell's classic account of the formation of the links, beginning with Genesis and moving step by step to the thrilling arrival of 'tilth' on the fingers of coastal land, suggests that such notable features of our planet as dinosaurs, the prairies, the Himalayas, the seagull, the female of the species herself, were accidental by-products of the Almighty's preoccupation with the creation of the Old Course at St. Andrews."
--Alister Cooke (Forward to The World Atlas of Golf)

[Bob_Huntley]

I think that the tournament in question was the first World Amateur Team Championship, later to be known as the Eisenhower Trophy. Bill Hyndman may well have hit the shot in question but as it was a stroke-play event and his heroics did not prevent Australia from winning the cup.

From the archives:

"The first Championship is hosted by the R&A on the Old Course at St. Andrews, Scotland.  The Australian team defeats the U.S. team in an 18 hole playoff by two strokes.  Bobby Jones is the Captain of the U.S. team.

With the permission of the President of the United States of America, the competition is played for the Eisenhower Trophy, which is inscribed, “To foster friendship and sportsmanship among the Peoples of the World,” the Council’s guiding principle.  The trophy is presented to the USGA and the R&A by the Friends of American Golf."

[TEPaul]

Walker Cup, Eisenhower Cup, what's the difference? It was still "The Road Hole" and it didn't seem to matter to Jones when he inscribed on that photo of #17 TOC, "Single greatest shot I've ever seen."

When I wrote that story I was thinking to myself that Bobby Jones was one helluva golfer but it did seem a little extra prescient of him to be telling Hyndman on the 17th hole of the Walker Cup (match play) that he had to have a birdie and par on the last two holes to tie and two birdies on the last two holes to win! Whatever the event it sure smelled like stroke play (Eisenhower Cup) to me!

And it is ironic that you statistical nuts have uncovered that Hyndman lost his match (and maybe the Walker Cup) on that self same hole. It would have been interesting to ask Bill Hyndman, given all the circumstances,  which form of play he would have preferred when tusseling with "The Road Hole". Something tells me he might have picked stroke play!

[Slag_Bandoon]

 I assume your professer will have the follow-up questions. . . "Can this be designed today?" and "When is this appropriate design?"
One endearing thing about this hole is it is so far out of, as TEPaul said, formulaic design. Which is precisely why it should be studied and revered.  Think around corners.

 I don't know if the whole hole has been copied  but the green complex itself has been re-presented elsewhere (except for that 'road-in-play' deal).  

 I would presume to say any architect's attempt at copying it could not capture or present the moment of being there at St. Andrews on the 17th. So any copy would be "Stairway To Heaven" set to elevator music.

[TEPaul]

When one mentions "copying" the "Road Hole" (or any great hole) for that matter, I think an important distinction should be made.

Copying a hole in every single imaginable way to make it as exactly similar to the original is a poor idea, in my opinion. Slag says, above that the hole or at least the green-end has been copied but possibly not the actual road itself and certainly not with the proximity #17 TOC's is to the green.

It seems perfectly reasonable to "conceptually copy" the original "Road Hole" which would basically mean many of the options, shot concepts and shot values would be duplicated for the most part. But even in doing that it's not necessary to make the copy absolutely recognizable to the original.

As a "conceptual copy" features therefore can be interchangeable from the original to produce somewhat the same affect for the golfer. Every "Road Hole" copy I've seen uses a bunker in the place of TOC's road! Other features, like the carry on a diagonal from the tees are used in the place of the hotel and old railroad sheds of TOC. That's the way it should be. There is just as much interest, and maybe even more, in interchanging features from the original and maybe even experimenting with those features to some extent, in my opinion.

Another interesting aspect of the "Road Hole" is that according to C&W it was the first hole at TOC that was actually "created" by man (Alan Robertson) between 1848-1850, complete with bunkers made by man. As such the hole apparently is the first actual whole hole design effort in the history of golf architecture. Quite a distinction, if that is so!

[Will_Smith]

Steve-
Going back to the original question, I recommend looking at the the seventh at the National by MacDonald,  a great replica of the road hole.

[TEPaul]

Another looser but excellent "replica" of the "Road Hole" green-end is Maidstone's #2. Somebody speculated recently that Raynor may have done that one although there's no attribution to him for it in C&W. It would make sense though since Raynor was an East End Long Island guy. If he didn't do it, I would like to know who did, but looking at it seems pretty obvious that he did do it. Who else did "Road Hole" replicas like MacD and Raynor?

[Steve S.]

I would like to thank everyone who has responded and everyone who responds in the furture.  Reading all of the responses and different ideas and opinions made for some very enjoyable reading.  The information that everyone has given me should make for a very interesting paper.  Again, thanks for the support.

[Steve S.]

Darren,

I enjoyed reading your ideas and thoughts on The Road Hole.  The options you listed really gives me something to work with.  I will be looking forward to you feature interview on The Road Hole.

[Steve S.]

Tommy,

Thank you for your insights on The Road Hole.  I also liked the idea of maybe checking into the 13th.  I will read up on it.  I would also enjoy hearing what anyone else thinks about their "favorite, great hole".  Thanks again, Tommy.  I will certainly read Brad Kleins description and thoughts on the 13th.

[Steve S.]

Will Smith,

I appreciate the insight on the 7th at The National.  This should give me a good start-up idea in examining and comparing the various ways that different designers have tried to redo this hole, whether they were sucessful or not.

[Steve S.]

Staying with The Road Hole, another thing I would like to hear about is "the shed".  I have heard on different occasions that it can cause some problems off the tee.  What I would like to know is exactly how much does this shed come into actual play?  Does it really affect the golfer or is it more of a psychological aspect than anything else?