[Scott_Burroughs]

There has been talk of two Ross Muni "gems" on the boards recently, Jeffersonville, in PA, and Manatiki in Ohio, and the talk of J'ville last week got me thinking, which course is better, Jeffersonville or Wilmington Municipal?  I've played neither but there may be some here who've played both (Mike C.?  Ran?  Bradley Klein?  Ross society members?) who could compare them.
A match play could be done.

But then the talk of Manatiki got me thinking bigger, what other Ross muni gems are out there (like Mark Twain, which I played several times in high school), and which one is the best?  Is French Lick a muni?

Brad Klein and Ross Society members probably have a knowledge of most or all of the Ross muni's, but which would you consider the best?

[ed_getka]

Scott,
I think French Lick considers itself a resort. It is a very enjoyable round of golf and is one of the few Ross courses I've played. Very interesting green contours on a few holes. There are places on some greens that are a 3-putt minimum, without being unfair or blazing fast.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

That would be a great list.  Best Ross munys.
Don't forget Triggs Memorial, Providence, RI

[Brad Klein]

Wilmington Muncipal in NC is in a class on its own - great strategy, fine restoration, excellent conditioning. By far the best Ross muni in the country.

Triggs Memorial in Providence, RI has sound design but is woefully lacking in conditioning and presentation of bunkers/greens/strategy.

George Wright in Boston suffers from similar neglect, though it's strategic elements were never evident even in its heyday. It was a great construction project on a tough piece of ground, but always lacked diagonal bunkering and interesting angles of play into greens.

Manikiki in Cleveland has strong elements on the long game but is overgrown and under-nourished.

I need to see Jeffersonville.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeffersonville is a very pleasant, thoughtful, municipal that had fallen into disrepair.  There are some very good holes, but it is NOT a great course that someone should seek out comparative to other Philadelphia-area golf courses.

The routing on the front nine is somewhat cramped, and the course is a bit awkward until one reaches the 9th tee (the 8th returns to the clubhouse).  I'm not 100% certain that the routing is completely original, but it sure looks like all Ross.

What is fundamentally appealing about J'ville is that it has some really neat green complexes and the restoration effort by Prichard has been exemplary.  During construction, which is totally non-intrusive save for one temporary green at the moment, it costs $14 to walk.

Incidentally, someone recently put out a book of "Donald Ross courses you can play", which is pretty comprehensive.  I am certain that J'ville is not Ross' best muni, but it's tough to beat for value and that's always a good thing.

Perhaps Tom Huckaby can provide a west coast opinion on J'ville.  

[Jeff_Mingay]

There's also Rackham and Rogell in Detroit. And only a few miles across the river, Roseland in Windsor, Ont.

The front nine at Rackham has been changed quite significantly, but there are still many good holes on the incoming nine. Bruce Hepner -- who grew-up playing there at Rackham (which is right next to the Detroit Zoo) -- has worked to expand some of the putting surfaces in recent years.

Rogell is a "sporty", 6,200 yard layout routed over a relatively interesting property. There are very few bunkers left on the course today and and turf conditions aren't great, but Rogell is still fun course to visit a few times per season. The five one-shot holes are particularly good, ranging from 100 yards to 220 yards. There are back-to-back par 3s at #14 (long) and #15 (short drop-shot). And the 18th is also a one-shotter, of medium length.

Three par 3s in the last five holes... and you wouldn't even know it. They're so varied and fun to play.

Roseland's probably the best of the three. Ross' original routing and all eighteen greens are intact. Some tree removal, green surface reclamation and bunkers reconstruction/addition would put this golf course in very high standing. However, I've talked with a few civic leaders about the course, only to discover municipal government is unlikely to dedicate funds to a Ross restoration! Surprise, surprise...

[Mike_Cirba]

One more point on J'ville.  

If anything has changed since the original, there may have been some loss of the property on the right side of number 7, which leads to two things.

1) A somewhat cramped, shortish stretch from 2 thru 7.

2) Sharper doglegs on a couple of holes that seem distinctly un-Rossian.  

Still, the combination of largely untouched original greens and the really cool bunkering work by Prichard stand out.  Overall, the course will play about 6500 yards from the tips, and is very lay of the land.  It is a placid refuge sitting in the midst of busy suburbia.  

There is also a double-dogleg par five 16th that is a gem to a wild green.  This hole will play as the 18th when the work is completed, and probably did originally as well.

[kilfara]

I'll cast a nod to Shennecossett (in SE Connecticut) - a neat set of greens, some interesting strategic play, and affordable greens fees. I used to take the long road (I-95 through Providence) from New Haven to Boston on my frequent trips in that direction just to stop off and play it...it's been a while, but I remember really enjoying myself.

Cheers,
Darren

[THuckaby2]

A west coast opinion of Jeffersonville GC near Philadelphia?

1. Mike Cirba described it perfectly;

2. That being said, I enjoyed it immensely and to this Ross-starved golfer it had all the cool Ross features I wanted to see; and

3. Drop that down in San Jose, CA and you could charge $120 for it.  Remember what courses near us charge that kinda money...

That was my first Ross course since many years ago playing a muni near Denver, CO.  I had a blast.

TH

[BillV]

Huckster

That Denver Muni is called Wellshire, a former private club until WWII.  THe greens are perfectly preserved, 3 or 4 holes bunkering is restored, otherwise, not too bad.  Maybe Doug Wright can give an update as my info is almost 2 years old now.  (For all I know they've had Fazio modernize it just as announced last night that Pine Valley had been modernized by Fazio! Yuuuck!

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, Pine Valley, Merion, Winged Foot, several others lauded as "modernized by Tom Fazio".

I was very disappointed with Peter Kessler's kid-glove approach.  No...it wasn't even that..instead, the program turned into an effort to purposefully portray this type of work as absolutely necessary and totally appropriate.  A PR firm couldn't have done a better job.

Makes one wonder why it wasn't done all the sooner.  Perhaps we can come back in ten years and stretch it to 7,500 or more yards.  

It's all good.

[Michael Moore]

The Balsams, Dixville Notch, NH
George Wright, Boston, MA
Shennecossett, Groton, CT
Poland Springs, Poland, ME
Wachusett Country Club, West Boylston, MA

[BillV]

Mike Cirba

Interesting difference between the approach interviewing Fazio vs Palmer as to the tough questions.  

Fazio and ANGC® are sacred cows.  Time to stop treating Augusta that way.

Time for the Tommy Naccarato interview on The Golf Channel®!

[SPDB]

Just a note on Shennecossett:

It can't really be considered a Ross anymore since there a three brand new holes (if memory serves me correctly - 15, 16, 17). The course had some sort of land swap either with the town, or with the town's biggest employer - Pfizer). The holes are actually quite good and sit on a finger of land that is actually better than any of the land the original course sits on (it actually plays out to the Connecticut river).

This is a shame for two reasons:
1. Because the original Ross design has now been compromised by roughly 17%
and
2. Because it would have been nice to see what Donald Ross could have done with the new land had it been part of the original parcel. Some seaside Ross.

[THuckaby2]

BillV - Doug has indeed already refreshed my absent mind re Wellshire... see how horrible I am with names though?

I recall having a good time there, only finding out years later the Ross connection.  For us, it was a beer-drinking screw-around...

TH

[Scott_Burroughs]

Michael Moore (you're not that GM tormentor, are you?   ),
  Are those courses you listed all muni's?  The Balsams is a resort, isn't it?  And Wachusett Country Club doesn't sound like a muni.

Regardless, with Brad's and Ran's praise of Wilmington, I'll have to check it out some time, since my mom lives in Wilmington, though they're members of The Cape, and I play for free whenever I'm there.

[Doug Wright]

BillV/Tom,

Wellshire GC, the Ross muny in Denver that I've mentioned before, is alive and well. I was involved in a 75th anniversary event they put on this July. I helped find historical information in the newspaper archives and through Tufts for a video and presentation following the anniversary tournament. I have looked at the original Ross drawings and the course remains pretty true to the design routing wise. The original greensites are excellent and in many cases evidence Ross's penchant to look  for the high ground for greensites. The original Ross greens are smallish with subtle slopes that make recoveries challenging if you shortside them. When the green speeds are up the original Ross greens are very fun! Some of the greens have been redone, and they, of course, are no good at all.  Typical of a spottily maintained muny, the bunkering is a shadow of its former self, and nearly all of the fairway bunkers are gone--what a shame, as some of them looked very cool on the drawings. There was some reworking of the course in the early 90s that didn't help--the architect didn't have the Ross plans when he did the work.  But you can see enough of the original Ross to make it worth your while. The current greenkeeper, Gregg Blew, has done a very good job getting the course back into better condition despite the 65-70,000 rounds per year he has to contend with.

Ironically, I'm visiting my parents in Wilmington NC tomorrow and we are playing Wilmington Municipal on Thursday! I was itching to play it after looking at the GCA course description, and the comments of Brad and others above add fuel to the fire. I'll post in the Wilmington Muny comments section on my return.

Doug

[Michael Moore]

Scott -

Oops. I seem to have confused "muni" and "public". Poland Springs is not a municipal course either.

Riverside Municipal here in Portland, ME is a terrific Stiles and Van Cleek design. I plan on joining next year and perhaps sending along a "My Home Course" write-up.

When Robert Landers, the humble dirt farmer turned Senior Tour icon, was asked where he had learned to play he simply replied "munis".

SPDB -

Your facts are correct (don't get me started on Brian Silva), but it still seems like a Ross course for me.

[Anthony_Pioppi]

Don't dismiss Shennecosset entirely. Their is still lots of wonderful untouched Ross throughout, including the remarkable 208-yard, uphill fourth hole. It is very much worth the visit.

The trade for land was with Pfizer and the new holes are on the Thames River.

[SPDB]

Anthony,
I didn't dismiss the course, other than say that it is not a Ross through and through. I also sense that there has been some change to the unattributable to Ross, although I cannot confirm this.
The last time I played it the conditioning of the course was atrocious. I definitely remember preferring the back to the front, however

[Craig_Rokke]

Mike Cirba/TH-
On the heels of your good Jeffersonville reports, I'm headed there tomorrow. I'm
really looking forward to seeing the improvements made by Ron P.

[mbilodeau]

Ponkapoag #1, Canton MA. A sleeping, decaying gem.

[Mike_Cirba]

Craig,

Have you played J'ville prior to the restoration?  If so, you will probably be as appreciative as I am of the work Prichard did, as well as the foresight of the officials responsible.

In any case, would love to hear your thoughts after your round.  Hit 'em straight!

[Daniel_Wexler]

Brad Klein:

Regarding Wilmington, it is my understanding that their original sand greens were not grassed until 1947.  Am I mistaken?  If not, I wonder: Was contouring the new versions a VERY late Ross project...or were there old plans to work from...or are the current contours not his?

DW

[Craig_Rokke]

Mike gave a good description of Jeffersonville. The work will wrap up next year, with the sequence of of holes ultimately being changed for the better.
Holes 11 thru 18 will be shuffled, with
the round finishing with a couple of the stronger holes on the course.

I also feel that the greens and the surrounding bunkering are quite good, probably Jeffersonville's strength.
Many of the vanilla holes on the previous layout have been given some new life with
well-placed bunkering. As you'd expect, the
short par 4's (5 holes under 350) tend to ratchet up the difficulty as you approach the green.

Surprisingly, there were few changes in the configuration of the individual holes.
The dog leg angle on #1 was softened a bit,
and the tee boxes were moved on a few others.
Additional yardage was added where appropriate.

A number of holes are currently situated in locations different from their original. To name a couple, a hole originally ran parallel to the drive coming into the club, where they are now setting up a practice range. And hole 6(par 5) used to be a par 4 that played to the green that hole 7 now plays to.

One other note of interest is that the
pair of grass bunkers that front the only
shorter par 3 on the course (#4 at 131 yds), were originally going to be sand bunkers, but the gas pipeline running underneath them prohibited that.

It would really have been cool if they found
some pictures of Ross on site. Other than the fact that Ross was responsible for the design, I've heard next to nothing about his
role--whether he was on site or had JB McGovern handle things, etc.

After avoiding the course for about 9 years,
my trip back was worth it. Jeffersonville will be a course that golfers of all skill levels will enjoy.

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