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Mike Hendren

Holston Hills vs. Beverly
« on: October 25, 2001, 01:05:00 PM »
I'm such a neophyte, but since a recent round at Ross' Beverly CC I've pondered why it doesn't grace Golfweek's Best Classical list while Holston Hills checks in at 29th.  I've only played each course once, but they provide the best context for my continuing education.  

I offer the following Ran-style match play solely to provide a framework for the treehouse to further educate me.  Here goes:

#1 - Both holes give a good indication of what's to come:  Beverly's treed corridors and premium on driving accuracy vs. Holston Hills' broad expanse and unfliching demand to keep the ball below the hole.  HH 1-up.

#2 -  Apparently rare Ross cape hole.  Cool back right pin location at Beverly. HH 2-up.

#3 - Great bunkering inside the dogleg at HH and tabletop green on far side of valley kept as fairway make HH 3-up.

#4 - HH gets bonus points for tee merely steps from 3rd green.  Solid short hole oddly similar to Beverly's famous 12th over a pond not in play.  Great push up green at Beverly, but trees inside the dogleg need to go. HH 4-up.

#5 - Sold straightaway par 4 at Beverly with green perched at the top of the old lake bed suffers due  to claustrophobic trees. True fairway bunkering on otherwise featureless ground creates a great three shot hole at HH. It goes 5-up and a route looms.

#6 - Beverly's beautiful short hole plays from the lake rim down to a pushed up green well bunkered in front.  HH's short par-4 has a wickedly sloping green.  HH 4-up.

#7 - Neither par five is as great as advertised.  HH's alternate fairway is obsolete.  Beverly's heartbreak hill is easily carried off the tee and the balance of the hole is straight forward.  Halved, leaving HH 4-up.

#8 - Beverly's green, as documented in Ran's profile must be seen to be believed.  After a 3-wood off the tee of this 410 yard hole, the sprinkler read 152/182/213! The front half of the green isn't visible unless one flirts with the right-hand fairway bunker from the tee.  HH 3-up.

#9 - Beverly's severe dogleg must have been necessitated by the widening of 87th street.  Ross uses a rise in the fairway at HH to brake the drive, making the second on this 399 hole longer than expected to a severely sloping green.  HH 4-up

#10 - HH's green is slightly sunken from the
fairway making the second shot deceptive.  HH 5-up.

#11 - Beverly's true three-shotter is over rolling ground to a green with a severe spine down the middle.  One of my favorite par fives anywhere.  HH 4-up.

#12 -  Beverly's short hole is reknowned but not as good a HH's uphill two shotter that measures 435 but plays 450 due to a rise in the fairway that catches the ideal tee shot.
HH 5 -up.

#13 - Two blind tee shots.  HH's cross bunkering carried by the second is beautiful but the hole is halved.

#14 - Big false front on HH's 180 yard par three makes this green tough to hit. I spent 15 minutes on Beverly's green trying to figure out which way the green slopes since it's canted into the base of a hill.  HH 4-up.

#15 - A monster 452 two-shotter at Beverly over broken ground is an even match for the incredible and unique fairway mounds at HH. The latter might be obsolute, but the cool quotient yields a halve.  HH 4-up.

#16 - 18.  HH's weak closing is well documented.  The closing trio is Beverly's strength, however.  The green at the 400 yard 16th is beautifully set into a side hill. The 195 yard 17th plays to a green set into a slight upslope, which Ross exaggerates by building up the rear an additional three feet.  Finally, the 18th has a true fairway bunker cut into a small ridge which requires a strong second to leave a good look at the green with a wedge.  Otherwise the player is forced to play semi-blind from  150 yards or more.  Beverly sweeps the final three, leaving Holston Hills 1-up.  

Overall, Holston Hills left me with the feeling of a playing field with a much lower profile, almost rustic.  Beverly is more refined and heavily treed, resulting in defined corridors of play.  Holston's fairways are far more generous, though its bermuda rough is far more penal.  Holston's greens are more squared with less perimeter shaping than Beverly's and the latter's bunkers have a little more sand splashed up.
I could be satisfied playing either course exclusively for the balance of my days and am eternally grateful to my respective hosts.

So, the question remains:  Why is Holston Hills ranked 29th and Beverly unranked?


Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holston Hills vs. Beverly
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2001, 07:05:00 AM »
A great match play and to argue with your rationale would be more nitpicking than anything else.

I agree that

a) Holston Hills deserves its lofty ranking and,

b) question why Beverly isn't ranked as well. I appreciate that its current tree problem, being in a crowded suburb, and the lack of 3D definition to its bunkers holds it back aesthetically, but still ... the routing yields so many rock solid holes that it wears down most courses on a hole for hole basis. Post restoration, Beverly will undoubtedly regain the spotlight that it held when Ouimet won the US AM there.

Has there been enough time for the restored Skokie to make it into GolfWeek's rankings? It should certainly be in there too.

Cheers,


Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holston Hills vs. Beverly
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2001, 09:30:00 AM »
Mike:

You have started a very interesting thread here.  Holston and Beverly are both wonderful, classic Donald Ross courses which share more similarities than differences.

Although the routings of both courses are world-class, Beverly would win in a head-to-head comparison.  No less an authority than Bradley Klein has pointed out how ingenious Ross’ routing was at Beverly – two loops of returning nines, contained in a rectangle, with consecutive holes going in the same direction only once (#11 and #12).  The three par’s display good variety in length, (143 to 233) with none of the five playing in the same direction.  The four pars range from 332 to 461 yards.  The five pars, amazingly for such an old course, are actually pretty long, tough, and play very differently (555 to 594).

Conditioning at both courses is excellent, with Ryan’s crew handling Holston’s and Servicescape at Beverly.

A huge similarity at both of these Ross gems is that one should never leave his ball above the pin!

The Champions of Beverly include:  Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicklaus, Chick Evans, and Francis Ouimet.  Still investigating for the Champions of Holston.

The members of Holston Hills should be commended for embarking on the restoration plan being conducted by their Superintendent, Ryan Blair.  The work done as of early June, during the Ross Society Annual Meeting, was very impressive, and you can be sure that when it is completed, it will be awesome.  My first round there of 43-33=76 was unforgettable (not bad for a 9-handicap!).  Not only was I fortunate to play this round with Bradley Klein, but the 33 was a personal best 3-under-par for 9 holes (I had also shot a 33 on the back nine at Cruden Bay once).  Three birdies and six pars – unbelievable!

Beverly has been presented with its own Long-Range Master Plan by Ron Prichard.  The Master-Plan Committee hopes to get Ron’s plan approved by the membership and placed in the Club’s by-laws some time in 2002.  There is still a bit of education and explanation that needs to be completed before the Club conducts its membership vote.

In essence, Ron’s plan is a “tweak” to what is an absolute gem.  Greens that have shrunk over the years will be restored to the edges of their fill pads.  Tees, some subject to a bit of modification, will be aligned and squared.  Fairways will be gently contoured.  Drainage will be improved.  Some trees will be removed.  Old bunkers will be restored.  All bunkers will be redone in the Donald Ross style (see Skokie’s new bunkers for a reference).  The course will be lengthened, but not significantly.

To demonstrate to the membership how impressive it is to reestablish Beverly’s original greens, the Grounds Committee authorized the use of our sod farm to expand the fifth, ninth, and seventeenth greens to the edges of their fill pads.   The expanded greens are absolutely amazing!  Seeing is believing.  The greens had shrunk over the past 60-odd years by some 25-40% in some places.  Many think that the bigger greens will make the course play easier – however, hitting more greens-in-regulations leaves one with the potential for many more 3-putts over Beverly’s slick greens!

Following are my comments concerning Mike’s match-play format of Holston vs. Beverly:

#1 – The differences between the starting holes is striking; Beverly’s is a short, tight four par, with pin placement determining the best angle of approach and type of tee-shot needed.  Don’t be long here!  Holston’s first is much more dramatic.  Strangely, for Ross, it’s a pretty long, tough opener, although the fairway is wide and generous.  The green is huge and very treacherous.  Holston, leads 1-up.

#2 – Beverly’s tee shot down the ridge from the highest land point in the city of Chicago makes for a wonderful hole, but Holston’s Cape is a bit more impressive.  Holston, 2-up.

#3 – The 242-yard hole-in-one I made at Beverly’s third in 1998 is certainly a tremendous memory on this long, tough three par.  However, Holston’s table-top green at the edge of the valley gives it the nod.  Holston, 3-up.

#4 – Agree with Mike.  Holston, 4-up.

#5 – While the fairway bunkering at Holston’s fifth is excellent, the fifth at Beverly is a very special hole.  The 419-yarder offers a tight driving area, and then a mid-iron to the newly-expanded green perched on the ridge of what had been Lake Chicago.  This green is lightning fast and you do NOT want to be above this pin position.  HH, 3-up.

#6 – Agree with Mike’s assessment.  HH, 2-up.

#7 – Although Ross loved this hole at HH with the alternate fairway, it is now obsolete.  At Beverly, when the wind is out of the South, the hill at #7 is no easy carry from any portion of the rear of the tee.  The closer you get to the green, the tighter the landing area as the oaks start to impinge on the fairway edges.  Once on the green, there are many subtle breaks that make for some tough putting.  A much tougher and better par five than the one at HH.  HH, 2-up.

#8 – While the eighth at BCC is my favorite driving hole (grip it and rip it!), the ugly tree at the front right half of the green effectively removes many pin placements.  Holston’s short three par will remain the winner until Prichard’s plan is implemented, when BCC’s eighth will be better.  Until then, it’s a tie … HH, 2-up.

#9 – HH’s ninth is much more dramatic, although BCC’s newly-expanded green makes for a huge improvement.  HH, 3-up.

#10 – Agree.  HH, 4-up.

#11 – Agree.  HH, 3-up.

#12 – Agree.  HH, 4-up.

#13 – Agree.  HH, 4-up.

#14 – Agree.  HH, 4-up.

#15. -  While I absolutely loved the mounding on the 15th at HH, there is no doubt in my mind that the 15th at BCC is one of the best four-pars anywhere.  Playing 461-yards, over rolling sand-dune humps and bumps, this is a tough driving hole, and, after a good drive you have a long mid-iron approach from an uneven stance, to a slick green that runs from front-to-back and to the left.  A tough, tough par 4 ½.  This hole is the start of a finishing quartet that would hold its own against just about any closing four holes on any course in America.  HH, 3-up.

#16 – HH’s 16th is a really fun short hole, but no match for BCC’s brawny 424-yarder tucked into the hill.  HH, 2-up.

#17 – BCC’s reestablished green here makes an awesome hole even better.  HH’s is no match.  HH, 1-up.

#18 – Holston’s par-5 finisher is pretty good, but absolutely no match for Beverly’s magnificent 592-yard, dog-leg right around the massive oak.  When you turn this corner and see everything in front of you, including the massive clubhouse, you are really impressed!  The bunkers tucked perfectly into the sand dunes, and the green is very tough – don’t be above this pin.  Match – even.

After a grueling match, Beverly comes back from 4-down to tie the match.

So Mike, I have to agree with you on this:

>>Why is Holston Hills ranked 29th and Beverly unranked?

In conclusion, as much as I loved Holston Hills, my true conviction is that once Ron Prichard’s Master Plan is implemented fully by Beverly CC, there is no doubt that Beverly not only will deserve to make the list of America’s Best Classic Courses, but it will be ranked above Holston Hills as well!

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Donald Ross

Holston Hills vs. Beverly
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2001, 04:37:00 PM »
Both Holston and Beverly are fine examples of my work, and they each deserve their accolades!

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holston Hills vs. Beverly
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2001, 07:54:00 AM »
Paul,
Your love of Beverly is obvious. I too think that it is a wonderful place.
Why is Beverly unranked?
IMHO
#1 fair short hole PAR 4
#2 like the tee shot, wish the green had more definition PAR
#3 long typical flat par 3 PAR
#4 terrible tee shot, the fantastic green complex saves the PAR 4
#5 classic Ross hole, the best par four on the front nine BIRDIE
#6 wonderful downhill par 3 BIRDIE
#7 nothing special par 5 PAR
#8 like the tee shot, the green is a joke (I do like the tree on the right though) PAR 4
#9 hope you can fix the green BOGEY 5
under the tunnel now
#10 another strong par 3 BIRDIE off the tree
#11 tough par 5, super green BIRDIE
#12 the needed short par 3, another classic green BIRDIE
#13 blind tee shot is okay, nothing special PAR 4
#14 basic short par 4 with a sloped green PAR
fasten your seat belts for the next four
#15 long through a tree tunnel, getting rid of some trees would make this hole an eagle, still its a BIRDIE
#16 bee line par 4, no tricks I like it BIRDIE
#17 could be the toughest par 3 in Chicago, thought it was a birdie from three feet above the hole, chip in for PAR
#18 too tough for a birdie PAR 5

On my scale the course ranks a 6. The same ranking I'd give to Franklin Hills and Barton Hills in the Detroit area.

I've only played Beverly in competition so I probably haven't given it a fair look. The green speeds were so fast it took away from the design (is that possible?). If the front nine were as tough as the back it would be as much of a monster as Oakland Hills.


Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holston Hills vs. Beverly
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2001, 02:46:00 AM »
Shooter:

No doubt I am biased, I admit it.

You must be a helluva tough rater to score
Beverly at 6-under-par, and yet only give
it a 6!

By the way, you asked about fixing the ninth
green - it's been done.

The green has been expanded to the edges of
the original (1934) fill pad.  You no longer
have to hit a bunker shot over 8 feet of rough.

With the green extended some 35-40%, the
dog-leg left plays so much better!  And the
green no longer feels like it's in the
tunnel!  

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Mike Hendren

Holston Hills vs. Beverly
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2001, 12:41:00 PM »
Paul,

You are an unabashed "homer."  Good for you! Turn Paul Bunyon loose on no. 5 and it earns a halve - maybe a win.  Beverly's 15th is indeed a great two-shotter (back to back 3-woods for me) but alas Rocky Top will always be home sweet home to me!    

I applaud your diligent stewardship of this Ross classic!    


Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holston Hills vs. Beverly
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2001, 08:31:00 AM »
to Ryan Blair:

Nice little blurb in Superintendent News this week  concerning Holston Hills and your
tree-removal project there.  Keep up the good
work!

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Mike Hendren

Holston Hills vs. Beverly
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2001, 10:20:00 AM »
Paul,

In response to your 10/27 post, four Southern Amateurs, two NCAA championships and two Knoxville Invitational (PGA) tournaments have been held at Holston Hills. Southern Amateur winners include Gay Brewer (1952) and Billy Joe Patton (1961).  NCAA individual champions were Houston's Marty Fleckman (1965) and Purdue's Joe Campbell (1955).  The two professional tournaments were won by Byron Nelson (when else but 1945!) and Herman Keiser (1946).  


john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holston Hills vs. Beverly
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2001, 11:34:00 AM »
Mike,

There was also the PGA Cup Matches in 1982 in which USA defeated GB&I 13-1/2 to 7-1/2. US team included Jim 'forearms' Albus and Larry Gilbert.

Cary Middlecoff won the state amateur in 1940.

Lord Byron also won a 1944 War Bonds event at Holston Hills.  At Mr. Nelson's 50th anniversary celebration of his magical year, the foursome from Holston Hills was surprised when Mr. Nelson started recounting some of the holes. Jugs McSpaden, the other gold dust twin, was still around then and really kept everyone laughing as I have been told.


Mike Hendren

Holston Hills vs. Beverly
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2001, 12:47:00 PM »
John,

I cut class at UT law school in 1982 to attend the cup matches.  It was my first and only look at Holston Hills until last fall when I was graciously hosted by one of your members.  BTW, McSpaden was runner-up to Nelson in the 1944 Knoxville Invitational played at Whittle Springs! Do 9 holes remain there?  

I look forward to making your acquaintance down the road.  


john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holston Hills vs. Beverly
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2001, 03:59:00 AM »
Mike,

Whoops on the btw ..... but btw Whittles is still and has since at least 1926 been 18 holes ??  Guess you never skipped school to play at Whittles.  Good call. There used to be a very large and nice hotel at Whittle Springs. It was quite the place at one time. Still fun to play Whittles as a reminder of the old days. It is still there.

But ..when you come...we'll play Holston.

John Stiles  865-691-5052


Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holston Hills vs. Beverly
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2001, 08:08:00 AM »
John and Mike:

Thanks for the list of Champions at Holston.
HH's list is almost as impressive as
Beverly's, so there is another similarity
between these two great Ross tracks.

Beverly's list of Champions includes:
Jack Nicklaus,
Arnold Palmer,
Chick Evans,
and
Francis Ouimet.

Not too shabby, eh?

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holston Hills vs. Beverly
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2001, 08:25:00 AM »
John:

Your little story about Lord Byron reminded
of this:

In 1998, Beverly CC was preparing to
celebrate its 90th Anniversary with a big
black-tie affair.  In preparation, I had
created the "Beverly Wall of Champions" -
the winners of all of the important golf
tournaments hosted by BCC.  One neat thing
about it was that each living Champion
signed his or her photo for the Wall.

Along the way, I found a neat photo of Lord
Byron posing at the 10th tee with Charley
Penna, the head pro at BCC for 38 years,
a very fine player in his own right (he
qualified for over 20 major tournaments!) and
the brother of PGA touring pro and famous
club-maker, Toney Penna.

I had had a tough time trying to get Mr.
Nelson to autograph this photo for display.

Finally, one day I went to my locker and
there was a note on it that read, "Paul,
call Byron Nelson at ...."

Wow!  So I called him up and we chatted for
about 20-odd minutes.  What a neat person!
His memory is amazing and he sat there
telling me story after story about his
remembrances at Beverly as if they had
happened yesterday!  People were walking by
me in the hallway and I'm whispering to them
that "this is Byron Nelson!" on the phone
with me!

Mr. Nelson proceeded to tell me that in the
1931 US Amateur at BCC, he three-putted 13
times in the stroke-play qualifier but
missed the cut by just one stroke! He had
never putted on bent-grass greens before
and they just gave his putter fits!

Then in the 1943 Chicago Victory National
Open, he placed in the top few spots and
earned a couple hundred dollars in War bonds.

It was at that tourney that he first met
Charley Penna, who would later invite him
to Beverly to play in an exhibition match, in
the late 1940's.  During this exhibition,
Charley played from the 6th tee to the 11th
tee in all 3's!  (that's par-eagle-birdie-
birdie-par for those of you scoring at
home!).  Mr. Nelson shot a 66 and Mr. Penna
shot a 67 during their match that day.

I asked Mr. Nelson if he could share these
memories with the BCC members.  He said
he'd be more than happy to if I could just
write him a note to remind him.  I sent
the note, and the day of the 90th Anniversary
party, his note arrived.

I brought the letter to the party and
proudly shared it with anyone who would
listen to my story!

Today this letter hangs in the main
hallway next to the autographed photo of
he and Charley Penna.

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

EvanLamb

Holston Hills vs. Beverly
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2001, 03:31:00 PM »
Paul:

Excellent story about Byron Nelson.

Maybe you should just make stories about Lord Byron a topic of its own!


Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holston Hills vs. Beverly
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2001, 03:29:00 PM »
EvanLamb and others,

As per your requests, there is a new thread under "Stories about Lord Byron.  Enjoy!

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

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