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Tim_Weiman

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Does anyone like the mounds?
« on: November 12, 2001, 06:12:00 PM »
At the risk of setting off a round of Rees Jones bashing, I'm wondering a couple things:

Does anyone here actually LIKE the mounding Rees Jones is famous for?

If so, could you tell us why?

Tim Weiman

Matt_Ward

Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2001, 07:06:00 AM »
Tim, with all due respect, do you like any Rees Jones course and if so why and which ones? If you are starting this thread as an open minded process I say great.

Have you played any of his more recent designs? I have and I believe he has done modifications that do not fall in the stereotypical pattern many people are mentioning and continue to cite inspite of his recent efforts.

I appreciate any info you can provide.

Thanks.

P.S. Just to be clear I am not a shill for Rees. I have cited instances of his recent work that simply do not work (i.e. Tattersall) but he has done some really good stuff (i.e. Nantucket, Olde Kinderhook and now The Bridge).


Tim_Weiman

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Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2001, 08:27:00 PM »
Matt Ward:

I appreciate your suspicion, but having spoken out numerous times against "bashing", I can assure you that is not my intent here.

My interest here is not to discuss Rees Jones, but rather to discuss one specific architectural feature: mounding.  Rees is well known for it, but he is hardly the only architect who has deployed mounds.

An example can be found right here in Cleveland, by none other than AW Tillinghast, at Lakewood Country Club. The results, I would have to say, are mixed.

Tillinghast did some really subtle stuff on the par 3 #12, so subtle that you really can't tell it is there when standing on the tee.

By contrast the mounding on #6 and #11 is strikingly artificial, so much so that you have to wonder whether it was done by the same team.

Lakewood is not blessed with a particularly interesting site.  The best parts of the course reflect Tillinghast's contribution (e.g. the green complex on #7 or the strategy of #14), rather than any gift of nature.

All of which raises a few more questions:

Is mounding the inevitable result of poor topography?

Is there such a thing as good vs bad mounding?

If there is "good mounding", what is the trick to getting it right?

Tim Weiman

Tommy_Naccarato

Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2001, 08:34:00 PM »
Is it ok if we do some Ted Robinson bashing?

Matt, Tim's question is legitimate, but I have to revert back to the question:

Does anyone here actually LIKE the mounding Rees Jones is famous for?

Which ones? They all look the same!


Tim_Weiman

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Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2001, 08:49:00 PM »
Tommy:

Believe it or not, I did visit a course recently and have someone tell me they liked mounding.  This person was referring to some real artificial looking stuff and caught me completely off guard. I didn't think anyone would say that.  But, he did and I just left it alone.

Yet, I wonder.  Maybe he is not alone.

Tim Weiman

Tom_Doak

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Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2001, 09:22:00 PM »
Tim:

Most golf course shapers LOVE the mounding, to show off how good they are on the equipment.

Most contractors love the mounding, too, because for them it's pure profit!


TEPaul

Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2001, 02:00:00 AM »
This is a very valid architectural question to ask. Rees Jones is by no means the only architect to use mounds or containment mounds on his golf courses. However, Rees is one of our era's most well known architects and he very well may have been the first or certainly the most prominent architect to introduce mounding and containment mounding on almost all his courses.

As such a prominent architect it's certainly possible, probably likely, that others copied that particular design feature as one that may lead to the popularity and success of any particular golf course. It would certainly seem so. Where else did the popularity of this design feature come from in modern American golf?

As a design feature used so prevalently there is absolutely nothing wrong with someone, anyone, questioning the aesthetic value, strategic value, design value of that particular design feature.

Why was this design feature used in the first place? It seems to me it was probably used to mimic the dunes and dunsy ridgelines of many of the seaside courses of Europe. Actually today someone gave me a copy of a panoramic photo of me teeing off on #4 Dunluce Portrush. Well to the left of #4  green there is a coastal ridgeline that gradually tapers down from a mid section of probably 100ft to almost flat near #4 green.

Things like this were likely the inspiration for this type of design feature. At Portrush this moundy ridgeline was probably the result of some prehistoric earth movement with wind and water providing the finishing evolutionary touches. The entire golfing ground at Portrush has features that are natural and match and mix with this particular coastal ridgeline. The same with Pacific Dunes!

This simply is not the case in Buckingham Pennsylvania or somewhere in the American desert. It may not be the case either in a particular spot on Nantucket Island.

So why do architects keep using this feature in places where it isn't a natural feature and may therefore look out of place? Because it had simply become a popular design feature where they gave little or no thought to how it looked in the landscape of any particular site or golf course.

It obviously had functions too, regardless of where it was built. It separated holes from one another which obviously gave golfers that sense of hole isolation that has become so popular or seemingly almost necessary in modern golf. It may have benefical safety functions too--it may not! And clearly it can be used to hide things. It also has some use to designers along the lines of what Tom Doak mentioned above.

So I think this is a very good architecutural question and personally I don't like excessive mounding, particularly "containment mounding" when it's used in places in which it clearly looks out of place.

As for Rees Jones's use of it on most of his new construction courses it seems it may have had its purposes and uses, but possibly not valid enough purposes and uses to last in architecture. It may have been just another fad in golf architecture that is not destined to endure. Certainly there have been many "design element" fads in architecture but only the most valid "design elements" seem to endure.

Matt and Pat:

This is a good question and I don't think we need any more attempts to protect Rees Jones (or any other architect) against a dicussion on the subject of mounding and "containment mounding". Your advice to play a golf course before commenting on how it plays is good advice. But commenting on how excessive mounding and "containment mounding" looks on a particular golf course does not really require playing the course. It can be an extremely large and noticeable feature, a very visible one, can be clearly seen and sensed in photos, on walks, whatever, and as such deserves comment, particularly if it's in an odd or uncharacteristic place.

You may continue to call this kind of dicussion, negative, "Rees bashing" or bashing of other architects. It is not! You may not want to hear this or listen to one bit of it. It appears, though, from some descriptions of  a few of Rees Jones's new golf courses that at least he's listening--and that's what really matters!



BarnyF

Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2001, 03:08:00 AM »
I remember the first time I saw mounds at the Nicklaus course at La Paloma in Arizona.  I liked them because I had never seen them and thought it was cute to see my ball go boingo bongo on all around the mounds.  I remember the first time I saw a waterfall backdrop on an 18th hole...I liked that too.  I liked Pete Dyes railroad ties the first time...I liked green fairways and people who remembered my name.  I was a consumer...the one paying the bill...so they gave me what I wanted cause they knew I liked it and would come back for more.

Ken_Cotner

Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2001, 03:17:00 AM »
I like gentle, irregular mounds in the fairway (not on the outside).  Even better if they are natural, not constructed.

KC


Jeff_Lewis

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Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2001, 03:23:00 AM »
Artificial mounds are fine, as long as they don't look artificial. We know they are artificial much of the time, but that doesn't obviate the architect's responsibility to make them appear as natural as possible. Most of the mounding at Whistling Straits, for example, emulates nature fairly well, though it is OBVIOUSLY artificial.

Tim_Weiman

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Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2001, 06:26:00 AM »
Tom Paul:

Thanks for your comments. I sure hope we can discuss architectural features like mounding without it degenerating into a "bashing" discussion.

That's why I cited the example of Tillinghast, someone we hold in pretty high regard.

Jeff Lewis:

The example of Whistling Straits is interesting.  I agree that Pete Dye managed to create the impression that much of what is found on the course is "natural".  Pretty amazing when you consider what he started with.

Tom Doak:

I'm wondering if the opposite is also true, that mounding can show off how BAD a shaper is with the equipment.

Doesn't it work both ways?

Tim Weiman

Paul Perrella

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Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2001, 06:55:00 AM »

 As a member of one of Rees Jones newer courses (Olde Kinderhook) I am somewhat troubled by some of the comments regarding his courses as it relates to mounding. Although there are a couple of holes on our course with some containment mounding, I would hope that every golfer leaves our course with a myriad of thoughts but with the mounding not in the top 5 of those. We have 4 par 3's that range from 170 yards to 240 yards and go in 4 different directions. We have a good mix of par 4's and par 5's that go left and right. We have some closely mown areas around the greens that allow for several different shots to be played. As mentioned by Pete Galea in another thread the ground game can be played on most of our holes. Our green complexes are probably the best feature of the course and although we have only been open a couple of years our course conditioning is on par with some of the best in the country.
 I may be letting some of my pride in our course to show through but I suspect that even some of Rees harshest critics would not leave our course with the mounding foremost in his mind.

 P.S. It should be noted that the wind almost always blows at Olde Kinderhook.


Tim_Weiman

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Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2001, 07:20:00 PM »
Paul Perrella:

I guess I really didn't do a good enough job separating the subject of "mounding" from a discussion of Rees Jones.

Let me try another example.

Not long ago an Irish friend of mine took me to a nine hole course in Ballyheigue.  Apparently, locals really enjoy the course. The setting itself was good enough that an old English lord decided to build a castle there years ago.

I do have some pleasant memories of visiting this site.  The same person who built the now ruined castle also imported some Cypress trees and if I may say so, they "frame" one of the par fours quite nicely.

However, what really stands out in my memory is the awful mounding built on a few holes that looks totally out of place.  If the intent was to imitate the natural dunes of many Irish links, it was a miserable failure.

Seeing this kind of stuff simply leaves me wondering how anyone could think it looks good. That's what I'm trying to get at, not Rees Jones.

Tim Weiman

Lou_Duran

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Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2001, 07:21:00 PM »
I strongly dislike most abrupt, low to mid scale mounding, either framing a fairway or guarding a green.  It is particularly disconcerting when you hit a good shot which barely skirts a fairway or green and it ends up with a severe sidehill lie, often in two to three inches of thick bermuda.  A particular peeve that I have is when mounds are built underneath trees which, in effect, result in doubling the impact of the hazard (the slope of the mounds often don't permit the knock-down shot required by the overhanging limbs).  Mounds guarding the entrance to the green also can limit greatly the types of shots that can be played.  Also, heavy mounding often results in undesirable wet, mushy areas around them.  

RJ_Daley

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Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2001, 07:23:00 PM »
If you haven't read it, please go to TE Paul's thread on the cost of architecture and follow what Jeff Brauer says about mounding and his early introduction to the concept.  I think the most objectionable mounding became conventional wisdom and construction-design technique and started "the look" at some point during the 1960s.  Perhaps someone like Doak or one of our more highly travelled contributors like Mike Cirba can go back and take an inventory of all the courses they have seen and begin to piece together where the separation and framing mounding started and how it just took off...

I will hazard a guess, brought on by Brauer's comments on the other thread.  The Chicago school and tradition is where I see the mounding coming from.  First, RB Harris introduced the big open bunkering and I think really influenced his proteges of Packard and Killian and Nuggent among others.  Packard in my mind really took off more with the bunkering and went on to do some very good golf courses in the great lakes region with that style of bunker work using Wadsworth to a great extent.  But, mounding was not so prevalent in Packard's work that I have seen so much as Killian and Nuggent's.  They all had a close relationship with Brent Wadsworth in that old Chicago gang.  I think that K&N's earliest work was more about the bunkering that they got from RBH, but they started to do more mounding for definition and holding the shots within the green surrounds (as explained by Jeff) and so they needed more skilled shapers to dozer up those mounds.  Then, as Wadsworth's shapers got more proficient at shaping mounds around the green surrounds on smaller blades, they got more crafty with bigger blades out in the fairway grading, and began shaping up wavy gravy high mounds to separate fairways.  Older K&N and Packard courses don't have the big burried elephant cemeteries between fairways, but there came a time where suddenly that was the "in" thing to do.  Jeff says that after his time with K&N he was the moundiest archie in the Texas.  Also, one can see the moundy mindset in Jeff's old buddy from K&N days, Lohmann.  Again, another protege in the long line of the Chicago gang.  Can we see this moundy thing by others that have come out of that school?  What about LaFoy, Borland's work with JN, Benkusky, Olcheck, etc.?  How much of this is also the long standing relationship with the Wadsworth organization?

Caveat:  Just speculation and thinking out loud on my part about moundiness and where it came from...

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Cirba

Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2001, 07:25:00 PM »
Isn't most modern mounding really the fault of one Jack Nicklaus's early architectural efforts?

Critics raved about his efforts at Loxahatchee, Grand Cypress, The Bear, and sparked a mass outpouring of stylistic impersonators.  


Tim_Weiman

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Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2001, 07:41:00 PM »
Mike Cirba:

I suppose Nicklaus did have an influence.

Anyway, I'm curious whether you have personally encountered people who said they liked mounding?

What's your perception of what the "average guy" you play with thinks?  Not GCA types, but your typical muni guy????

Tim Weiman

Matt_Ward

Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2001, 07:49:00 PM »
I'll ask it again since my question was not answered.

Tim, you state: "Does anyone here actually LIKE the mounding Rees Jone is famous for?

That's a good question and I followed-up by asking do you like any courses that Rees Jones has done and if so why? I also asked if you have played any of his most recent designs? I'm still waiting for an answer.

It's wonderful that you mentioned Tillinghast in Ohio but what about your initial thrust?

You then go on to say in your second thread, "My interest here is not to discuss Rees Jones (really?), but rather to discuss one specific architectural feature: mounding."

Tim, please help me out -- you start with an emphasis on Rees, but quickly shift away. Yes, I am aware that mounding is used by plenty of architects, but you started specifically with Rees Jones as a major item of contention. What courses of his have you played? Are any recent designs? Can you explain why they were good or poor in your opinion?

Paul Parrella stated his connection to Olde Kinderhook and since I have played the course I copmpletely agree with his viewpoint that mounding will not be topic #1 after you play the course. Has any other contributor to GCA actually played the course? In my mind, it's easily among the top 20 in New York State, but because it's not in an heavily travelled area (just outside of Albany) it will get little notice.

TEPaul:

Tom, let's be clear I am not here to "protect Rees Jones," but I believe it is fair game to have people cite specifics when they say Rees Jones / mounding practices and then have them list instances of this among his most recent work.

What happens is fairly easy to see -- mention the subject of artificial mounding and ipso facto the name of Rees Jone ALWAYS comes to mind even when his recent courses do not have this element to the degree that past ones have. In essence, the mark of Cain is put on an architect even when he is clearly moving away from the very thing il-informed people continue to assert. What that tells me is people are not doing the due diligence in seeing his recent efforts.

I still believe you must play a course to assess how valid the mounding is as a strategic element in the design. BarnyF mentioned this during his visit to LaPaloma and I agree that mounding, both on the periphery and in the main area of play, can be a worthy addition when done to avoid clearly being out of place as Jeff Lewis defines.

I agree that mounding has a place and when done to enhance the strategic value in playing the game it can be a invaluable asset prvided its creation is not so clearly articifial and out of the realm from the natural setting one finds the course.


John_McMillan

Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2001, 07:50:00 PM »
I had a chance a couple years ago to ride a golf cart with Tom Doak around Pete Dye's Bulle Rock course in Maryland.  Tom asked me what I thought about a particular hole, and I said that it looked sort of raw of unfinished, to which Tom replied that most people would have the opposite reaction - that the hole was very intricate and crafted.  My point was that there was earth that was moved in the areas close to the hole, but once you looked 10 yards outside the fairways or greens, the land was very evenly sloped - so that to me it looked like someone had started creating some different terrain, but stopped once they did a little bit around the hole.  Strategically, it didn't "hide" much, because it was pretty apparent what was created - and which areas to avoid.  What I would love to see - but haven't yet seen a good example of - is earth moving "within" the hole "hidden" by some like earth moving "outside" the hole, but still within one's visual frame for the hole.  If someone is committed to a $10 million construction budget for a new course, to me, that seems like the feature worth spending money on.

Tim_Weiman

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Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2001, 08:08:00 AM »
Matt Ward:

If you would like to start a thread on Rees Jones or something like "old Rees vs new Rees", that would be fine.

For the purposes of this thread, I'd prefer to stick with the subject of mounding.  That's why I cited the diverse examples of Tillinghast's Lakewood Country Club and Ballyheigue in Ireland.

Pete Dye is famous for island greens.  Don't you think we ought to be able to discuss island greens as an architectural feature without reviewing Pete's latest courses?

Yes, Rees Jones is famous for mounding.  Don't you also think we should be able to discuss this feature without reviewing Rees' latest efforts?

You mentioned something about having an "open mind".  Great!  Can't I as someone who doesn't like mounding ask people who do to share their thoughts?  Maybe I'm missing something.

Tim Weiman

Jeff_Lewis

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Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2001, 08:21:00 AM »
Here is a theory. Golf courses were originally "built" in seaside locations where the bunkers and mounds occurred naturally. When these aspects are designed into locations where they are not pre-existing (i.e. everywhere that a golf course is built today), they are emulating those original courses in some fashion. So, not only is there nothing wrong with building mounds, but there is plenty right about doing so. So mounds that don't look like they could have ever have been there before are a problem because they don't look like nature, not because they aren't nature.

Peter Galea

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Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2001, 08:40:00 AM »
Matt,
I have played Olde Kinderhook, twice.
I really enjoyed the golf course. It is everything Paul Perrella said it was. Beside that, it is strong. It has a GREAT membership. Many of whom are lurkers. They all "get it," as does the owner and superintendent. It is a pure golf club. There is some mounding on the periphery that bothered me, not because of the shapes, but because in several areas it blocks wonderful views. Then again there are trees, which Rees had nothing to do with that block views too. There are several drain basins which may not be in ideal spots. All that being said, none of it detracted from the golf course to me. It is solid, it is strong, it offers options, it is strategic and it is fast and firm with some of the best fairways and greens I've ever seen. Take that as you will, I've only been in the business for 20 years, and playing for 30.
"chief sherpa"

Jeff_Brauer

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Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2001, 09:57:00 AM »
RJ,

I will probably ramble on about as you did on this subject, not a tribute to our literary skills, as much as an important, but multi layered subject.

My first impression of your post was that the Chicago school was not the only ones to do mounds. Certainly, after I moved to Texas, Plummer, Maxwell and others used a series of anywhere from one to five mounds behind their greens.  In fact, many around here refer to them as "Maxwell's four mounders".....

I recall Ken and Dick saying that a shaper turned them on to backing  mounds.  He wasn't with Wadsworth, as they didn't use them much, feeling he was too close to Packard.  

Harris used to put the mounds, similar to Maxwell within the green surface, and the last ten or twelve feet of the green would roll off the back.  This particular shaper, who had worked for someone else (perhaps RTJ?) and mentioned, or perhaps just varied from early K and N plans, by pushing the mounds off the green to the back.

They saw the architectural merit of holding in near misses, making the putting surface entirely visible (in fashion then, as tour pros redefined the meaning of blind to mean seeing the base of the flagstick) and helping shots hold better.  Also, softening the putting surface by placing the rolls outside makes it all cuppable.  When concerned about maintenance, and building the lower budget courses that K and N usually did, meaning the smallest possible greens to save money, designing greens to max out cup space was a very practical solution.  

I guess I am saying that they were reevaluating design concepts in light of current conditions (it must have been heresey to go against what a guy like Maxwell did) just as we do today.  Its just we are in better economic conditions today, so other factors see more balance!

K and N were never big on fairway grading, unless raising for drainage in a swamp, or cutting through a hill for vision and/or to get some necessary cuts.  After I left, I did see some courses by both (they have split) that also featured framing mounding, so I think the suggestion that Nicklaus' work at Grand Cypress, or others was studied and copied, not just by me or them, but by many.

I do recall Dick and Bruce Borland looking at PGA West (the Dye course) and Dick saying "What are the purpose of all those mounds back there, they don't come into play?" Bruce replied, "Dick, they look fabulous, and that's their purpose".  Eventually, Dick did some more mounding on the second perimeter just for looks.

We all study the biggest names and adapt. Not a knock on Rees at all, but he spent some time deriding the use of mounds, back when he first became known as the Open Doctor.  Then, he used them at Atlantic, to rave reviews, and seemed to have changed his mind.  Now, his work is less moundy, like most of us, proving either that we all grow and learn, or that at least we listen to critics!

As I said on the other thread, after experimenting with them, I found them to be a largely failure for me.  Why? IMHO I need to go all out, ala Fazio, and move about 1 Million CY of earth to really fill them in (I think he is successful at the look he does) or eliminate them.  Since I don't get the budgets he does, I have reduced them greatly.

When we do have to do grading, I am trying to get my staff to look at earthworks more like Fazio - as a more integrated whole, especially using new computer technology as a great tool.  I feel most architects who use mounds "plop" them on a relatively flat piece of ground, sometimes because of the way traditional contour line drawing makes you think.  

I recall Dick Nugent always told me that architects always hestiate for a contour line to cross a fairway or green line. I find thats true, and instill that in my guys daily.  He always said to do the final grading plan without the "edge" layers, and we can do that now by turning them off on the computer.  If the contours look like a work of art on plan, then they usually look like a work of art in the field.  If the contours look like isolated mounds on an otherwise flat piece of land (devoid of contours on paper), then the grading will look like mounds plopped on the ground. Is that too technical?

Back to the original question - Do I like them.  Really, I do, if well done.  Rarely does a peice of ground fall for 18 straight holes just where you need it or want it.  Unlike most other forms of architecture and landscape architecture, golf design benefits from distinct viewing  points and sequences, and it is easiest to control the view and or define it, which can enhance the experience.  It is a shame to not enhance the landscape for golf in such situations, in the name of minimalism or whatever, if the course can be improved.

However, most architects and contractors don't have the mindset or budget to do them right, and they often come out as repititious, puny, etc. compared to nature.  They do have their place in modern architecture (hey, even Ross had a chapter in GHNFM called "Solid Mound Work" although that may have been the editor, and not Ross writing the title) but we are all getting both used to and tired of them.  Also, as Lou Duran say, we are beginning to see a negative effect on play, ie, sidehill lies.

Jeff

PS - Don't tell me I don't work hard enough on my routings, or that I am lazy and only use mounds to cover up my routing deficiencies.  I won't argue that any more, but I can say emphatically that it isn't true!

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

paul albanese

Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2001, 10:38:00 AM »
I am not a fan of mounding at all, especially mounding that is gratutious.  I have always thought that mounding simply looked "artificial", fake, disingenuous -- qualities I never wanted associated with myself or something I helped create.

But, that is only my opinion, as I soon found out as I was playing golf with two of my friends -- good golfers, but know little about architecture.  We were playing a course designed by a guy notorious for mounding -- you know, the gum drop mounding that makes it look as if the landscape broke out in a rash.  I was offended by the lack of artistic quality and I let it be known to these guys how ugly I thought it was.  One guy's response was "I like it"-- I said, in utter disbelief -- "you like the mounds?!?!" -- he said "yeah" -- I said, "please tell me why?" -- he really could not explain, except to say he liked the "rolling, polly moundedness" -- somehow, it simply excited him to see these mounds.  

I had another superintendent who said that the mounds reminded him of the mountains he had seen somewhere (gum drops = mountains?) -- I did not know how to respond.

I have seen mounding as solutions used by architects because it is simply the only thing on their design pallette -- and usually an element with only one  variable being "how high".  

I have always been intrigued by the evolution of form in landscape and golf architecture -- and mounds are great examples of a borrowed form run amuck.  If it worked over there -- well, build one here too, with no thought to context or development of form.  

It is well known that all good design ideas are borrowed -- the key to good design is how to take those borrowed ideas and develop them into elements that work within the context of the design.  A "ugly" mound is usually the result of a decent idea -- not well developed.  

 


corey miller

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Does anyone like the mounds?
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2001, 10:48:00 AM »
Pete- when you say that there are trees that Rees had nothing to do with that block views at OK. Are they off the property or an owner that would not remove them???  Just wondering as trees that block views seems to be more a problem on older courses...