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Paul Turner

Who said this?
« on: November 21, 2001, 10:16:00 AM »
Reviewing NGLA, this highly respected writer states:

"Certain holes are supposed to resemble famous holes in Britain, but on the whole they bear so little resemblance that you wouldn't recognise them unless you were told.  What's more, these holes in my opinion and the opinion of many are not the strongest in the layout".

Anyone agree with him?

In his review of each hole, he clearly likes "Redan" and "Alps" but has little time for "St Andrews" and "Eden".


ForkaB

Who said this?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2001, 10:54:00 AM »
Paul

I agree with both elements of the statement, as well as the author's preferences vis a vis the 4 holes mentioned.  I would add that I think MacDonald's Redan is a vast improvement on the original, but that the other 3 are slightly inferior interpretations.

Don't have a clue who it is, but he or she must be highly discerning!


ed_getka

Who said this?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2001, 11:05:00 AM »
Rich,
I haven't seen the course yet, but what do you think makes the three holes in question inferior to the original?

Do the "copied" holes have the features of the original, but not the overall context, which makes them bear little resemblance to the originals?

"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Chris_Clouser

Who said this?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2001, 11:17:00 AM »
I think it was Herbert Fowler, but I may be wrong.  

ForkaB

Who said this?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2001, 11:27:00 AM »
ed

Given the caveat that I've only seen the copies once and the originals many times, let me offer the following:

1.  NGLA's "Alps" is a good hole, and a far more comples one than Prestwick's, but simplicity is a virtue in any hold stressing blindness, in my opinion.  Particularly, the huge green at NGLA requires both prior knowledge as well as knowledge of the pin placement for the day and/or caddies and forecaddies to play intelligently.  This is a weakness, to me.

2. The "St. Andrews"/Road hole at NGLA is a good hole, but it attempts to recreate the challenges of one of hte great holes in golf, and thus is doomed to "fail."  The driving challenge is slightly more sophisticated than on the original, but the second shot (assuming that it is, really, a par 4) lacks both the gut wrenching drama and unique hazards of the original (e.g. the Road!).

3.  NGLA's "Eden" is nothing special.  There are hundreds of short par 3's being built every day that are every bit as good.  The original at TOC has the virtue (again) of simplicity.

4.  NGLA's "Redan" is better than the original because the original's blindness takes much of the thrill away from it's challenge.  On MacDonald's version you can see the entire drama of your shot unfold in front of you.  It is a great, great hole.

Cheers

Rich


Ran Morrissett

Who said this?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2001, 12:21:00 PM »
Sir Peter Allen wrote it in the 1960s, though he may not have been a Sir at that time.

I wonder if Macdonald personally preferred the original Redan to the original Eden? The reason I say that is if it was the other way around, and he was hot to trot for an Eden hole, he might have built it in the general vicinity of where the Redan presently is, those ensuring that the Eden green would have the appropriate horizon backdrop. As it presently is, Macdonald had the Eden hole face inland and there is a wall of something (trees/vegetation?) behind the green, which is poor indeed.


aclayman

Who said this?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2001, 12:28:00 PM »
I honestly thought it was Rich Goodale.

Dan Kelly

Who said this?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2001, 12:30:00 PM »
Alistaire Cooke?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

T_MacWood

Who said this?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2001, 01:01:00 PM »
MacKenzie?

Paul Turner

Who said this?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2001, 01:11:00 PM »
Ran's correct, it was Peter Allen in his great book "Famous Fairways".

Here's the whole review:

The National Golf Links of America is a spendid course, and I say so advisedly; it was the brainchild of the late Charles Blair Macdonald, who was determined – and he was a very determined and opinionated man, highly articulate and partisan-to build a great golf links to stand comparison with the championship links of Scotland, where he had been educated.  This then was the first great course of the United States and in the words of Herbert Warren Wind he “revolutionised golf architecture in America…In building the National, old Charlie Macdonald was out to show what a first rate British course looked like.”  This he did, in the dunes and scrub land near Southampton at the far end of Long Island over 100  miles from New York.  His statue stands in the Big Room at the club to testify.  Links, it just isn’t quite.  The rough is too pronounced, the fairways a shade too lush.  But seaside golf at its best it is with pure white sand in the bunkers and scrapes and when in the mood it can savage you with a terrible north-west off Long Island Sound.

Bernard Darwin gave this description of his first sight of the course in 1913 when it was just completed:

“I shall never forget the moment of my first arriving at the National.  It was well timed, for the sun was just setting; we drove along a lonely sandy road amid huckleberry bushes.  Everything was seen in a half-light, fading and fantastic, and on the horizon was broad strip of flame, while between it and the waters of Peconic Bay there ran a narrow strip of jet black that marked the curves beyond the Bay.  Here, after stifling New York, was peace coolness and seaside golf, and, indeed further experience has convinced me that, taking all things into consideration-the golf, the company,the view and the cooking-there is in the world no more delightful place in which to play than the National Links of America.”

Characteristic of The National are big plateau greens and big deep bunkers.  Many of these-too many some think-are invisible and are only shown by marker flags.  But Macdonald believed in giving everybody a chance to enjoy the course, so there is nearly always a diagonal carry to help the shorter players and sometimes an easy though longer way round to the green.  The diagonal carries off the tee are a constant nagging source of worry to the ageing golfer like myself who has to pick his spot to cross or lose a shot in the sand.

As a club it is small and extremely comfortable, the service is impeccable and in my view its plain delicious food is the best in America.

The National has never sought championships or publicity of any kind and its remoteness and exclusivity keep it relatively unknown.  The Walker Cup was played here in 1922 and that is about the only famous event.  What is known about it is generally inaccurate, such as the myth that all the holes are copies of famous holes in Britain.  Certain holes are supposed to resemble famous holes in Britain, but on the whole they bear so little resemblance that you wouldn’t recognise them unless you were told.  What’s more, these holes in my opinion and the opinions of many are not the strongest in the layout.

The first hole is a drive and a pitch of 310 yds or so to a plateau green, small and folded; the drive is not too tough though over bunkers, and the bunkers beset the left side of the green.  In all there are twenty-three on this hole!

The second is the “Sahara”, and even shorter par 4 of 252 yards, driving over a big bunker in a hill.  It is longer that the “Sahara” at Sandwich and really resembles it very little.  The next is the “Alps”, possibly a better hole than the seventeenth at Prestwick, rather longer with more bunkers, and a bigger green for the blind shot.  The fourth at 172 yds is the “Redan” and a much better hole than the “Redan” at North Berwick, for here you can see the whole hole, as it is not blanketed by that unecessary hill.

Five, the “Hog’s Back”, a shortish par five and once again the carry from the tee causes anxieties for those whose length is waning.  Then number six is a very short par 3, but the green runs across the line so the shot is very tight and the bunkers grasping.

The seventh, called “St Andrews”, is supposed to resemble the “Road Hole” and while the green is a fairly faithful model, the rest of the hole is totally different and much inferior.  No Stationmaster’s Garden, only wild rough and bunkers and no road, only a deep trap.

The eighth, the 368-yard “Bottle” is a beauty, a real fine hole with a stiff shot to hit home to a high plateau green which slopes away from you.  So with a par 5 of 527 yards with a tough diagonal carry off the tee and water to catch a slice, and a second shot over a big bunker in the middle of yje fariway rather like “Hell”, you are at the end of the course.

Turning now for home the golf stiffens perceptibly.  As my friend Ike Grainger said, “From now on in you’ve got a real golf course.”  The tenth “Shinnecock”, is a 412-yard two-shotter with bunkers up by the green perceived only from their marker flags-as I have said these hidden bunkers abound at the National, rather too many I think.  Then towards the bay is another two-shotter of 405 yards with half the green in a shallow natural saucer and the left hand side on a little plateau-a very pretty green.  Then the 374 yard twelfth gives us a stiff shot to a domed plateau green; as one of my partners said, it’s like pitching onto a bald man’s head.

The short thirteenth of 162 yards over water is supposed to be like the “High Hole In” at St Andrews.  It resembles it in difficulty in no way, and is a very colourless attempt.

But the next, the 337 yard “Cape” hole, makes up for it, a real splendid hole-a drive over water, a bumpy fairway, more water in front of and to the right of the green, and a plateau to pitch to.  The next too, “The Narrows”, is another fine two-shotter, 370 yards to a green set up to take the shot.  Sixteen is another great hole, the drive over water and a real good hit needed to clear the steep confronting hill, then a resolute shot over the guarding cross bunkers, again just a little too invisible, into the shadow of the great windmill and on to a green that for once gathers the ball.

The seventeeth, “Peconic”, 338 yards downhill doesn’t sound too formidable but you have a diagonal carry off the tee over a huge bunker which makes you scratch your head to judge how much to bite off, and a range of low sandhills in front of the green.  After a mishit drive a five wood off the hard sand in the big bunker which bored home straight over the protective range right to the stick , perfectly exemplified the extreme of pleasure which only golf can afford.  The last hole is a long uphill slog past the clubhouse, with cross bunkers to carry with your second; it is the only par 5 in the second nine, and is not a great favourite of mine though Bernard Darwin gave it high praise.  It passes near enough to the clubhouse for a member to have hit it on the roof twice-and played of it once-in a tournament in two successive years.  The second year the ball lodged in the lead flashing of the roof and can be seen still stuck there to this day



Ran Morrissett

Who said this?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2001, 01:18:00 PM »
Sir Peter really was a gifted writer. In describing Muirfield, he said, "Well what's the snag, there must be one, or this would be the one great perfect course in all the world? So let's say it in a quiet little voice - it lacks charm.....You respect it, you respect it tremendously, but you somehow don't quite get to love it."

What a shrewd observer of the game he was!


Ran Morrissett

Who said this?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2001, 01:21:00 PM »
PS In regards to his comments on NGLA, it is worth noting that Sir Peter only ever saw it during its low point.

ForkaB

Who said this?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2001, 01:42:00 PM »
Ran

Interesting and prescient comment from Peter Allen re: Muirfield as it applies equally to Shinnecock Hills--its "separated at birth" twin brother in the USA.


Paul Turner

Who said this?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2001, 01:44:00 PM »
Ran

Yes that's a funny comment about Muirfield.  

Would you agree though, that Colt got the absolute maximum out of that modest site?


T_MacWood

Who said this?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2001, 06:41:00 PM »
Why have there been so many successful copies of the Redan, and practically none of either the Eden or the Road hole?

Jim_Kennedy

Who said this?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2001, 06:55:00 PM »
Tom,
It seems the "Redan" is much better when not blind. Its "wants" are others license.  
As for the "Road", has there been a place where the same circumstances of the hole have ever been found? If there were, would it not be just a replica of the existing? What could make this hole "better"?
I would posit the same for the "Eden".
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

SPDB

Who said this?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2001, 07:00:00 AM »
Tom - I think that the allure of the Redan is its strategy (as CB himself penned), which does not necessarily depend on it's geographical features.  The Road and Eden holes' strategies depend in large part upon their georaphical features. The Eden is backed up by nothing, making it a very a tough hole to duplicate (FI clearly is the best since it capitalizes on similar scenery and orientation). The Road of course, is hemmed in on it's right several times by the town. This hole, in my mind, is nearly impossible to "copy," and the only thing imitators would be well served to imitate are the lines of play, the green shape, and, of course, the bunker. This is all you that it's imitators strived for, and I think in that respect they succeeded.

For the Road, I think Piping Rock is CBM, SR's finest, particularly with the new tee which gives the lines of play, and strategy its similarity to the original.


SPDB

Who said this?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2001, 07:02:00 AM »
reading that last post, it seems that fatigue has the better part of me. i will update when I am more lucid. This is one of my favorite subjects.

Paul Turner

Who said this?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2001, 11:14:00 AM »
Just a point of interest:

I read somewhere that Sir Peter was the first non-American member at Augusta.


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