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CHrisB

Nick Faldo the Architect
« on: November 17, 2001, 05:36:00 PM »
Nick Faldo's courses include the Sporting Club Berlin (Germany), Chart Hills (England), Mission Hills (China), and Shadow Ridge in Palm Desert, California.  Faldo Design is also working on projects in Arizona, Connecticut, Canada, Mexico, Greece, and Portugal.  Look for more and more courses from him as his playing career winds down.

Taken from his design philosophy on the Faldo Design website (www.faldodesign.com):
"The golf courses we design are essentially very strategic in nature; we always seek to combine creativity and originality with an adherence to classical design principles.  We think golf courses should look as natural as possible, and whilst they should challenge and inspire golfers to play their best, they should always be 'playable' and fair.  We believe the finest courses are also the most enjoyable to play."

Has anyone played any of his courses?  Can anyone comment on his style or philosophy?  Is it too soon to effectively critique him as a golf course architect?


Don_Mahaffey

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2001, 06:38:00 PM »
Chris,
I have played Shadow Ridge, and although I don't know how much was Faldo and how much was Curley, I loved the course. There are holes with multiply options off the tee and I found myself bringing more than one club to the tee often. The bunkering was very cool with lots of splashed up faces that stare right at you, often making depth perception difficult as they were often not as close to the putting surface as I thought. All in all, one of the better new courses I have played in the last year.

mothman

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2001, 11:25:00 PM »
I wonder what style he has?

He has designed course with (to date):
Steve Smeyers, The IMG design team, Schmidt & Curley, his new design team in London - and others I am sure.

Sounds confusing.


TEPaul

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2001, 02:05:00 AM »
Apparently the course mentioned above slated for Connecticut is scheduled to be with Hanse Golf Design Inc.

I met him with Gil Hanse well over a year ago (played one round) and I was impressed by his attitude and his general and specific focus on things to do with architecture. He in no way appeared to act like he knew more about architecture than he did (I have no idea how much actual input he has had on the courses under his name or how much he actually does know). He has done a series of articles on architecture and I have no idea either if they were written by him or someone else. Whoever wrote them did them very well, in my opinion.

I did mention on here before that Faldo appeared to me to be a very interested observer. I watched him study Merion quite carefully (and he was not just walking but playing and taking photos too--he'd not been there before). He asked some very good questions and his observations and answers to questions were very well thought through and interesting.

Primarily Faldo is a real observer of golfers. He seemed acutely interested in the swing and results of any golfer he could see anywhere and even had a habit (bit of a game actually) of predicting what they would do by observing their preshot routine and their practice swings.

This latter fact I think could make Faldo  someone who would be very realistic about the spectrum of ability levels as it applies to golf architecture, if you know what I mean.

And then of course from a Tour Pro's perspective he probably couldn't be better since he is at the mid-level on the pro tour for distance (or maybe even on the short hitter end) and clearly understands the ramifications of course management strategy as well as any tour pro.

Put those things together with a basically thoughtful man and you might have something very interesting architecturally. Of course he's European and obviously has an appreciation for the style of the old courses of Europe.  


Jeff_Mingay

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2001, 04:48:00 AM »
I think it's actually been quite smart of Faldo to work with a number of golf architects to this point in his design career.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if he planned this knowing full well that by working with a diversity of people, the more he's likely to learn about golf architecture.

I'm most interested in the result of the Hanse/Faldo collaboration in Connecticut. And curious to know where the Faldo course in Canada planned to be?

jeffmingay.com

Ran Morrissett

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2001, 06:13:00 AM »
I would be willing to bet that Steve Smyers deserves 98% plus of the credit for Chart Hills from the routing on.

It sure photographs well despite - or perhaps because of - the overabundance of bunkers. I imagine it has loads of strategy as well.

Has anyone played it?


Jeff_Stettner

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2001, 06:28:00 AM »
Ran:
I've played Chart Hills once, right after it opened (1993, I believe). Though I wasn't nearly as picky as I am now, I remember really liking the routing and being further impressed by the wild bunkering, which, as you surmise, probably was courtesy of Smyers. The course was advertised to have "American conditioning", but I recall the fairways playing fairly firm. The greens had a lot of movement.
I ended up playing a few holes with Colin Montgomerie, who was shooting a Lays potato chip commercial there (stop laughing, y'all). He commented on the bunkering quite a bit.
Stuff I liked:
The bunkering. Flash-faced, much like the pictures I see of Faldo's new Palm Springs course, the bunkers were big and bold. One bunker stretched 80 yards down one fairway before cutting across the middle.
The routing. Smooth, walkable course. Nothing awkward.
The range of shots required. I remember unreachable fives and eagle putts, flip wedges and full-bore long irons into fours.
Stuff I didn't like.
The opening tee shot. Awkward dogleg right down the hill.
17, an island green par 3. Blah, blah.
Some greens could have had more movement. They wanted fast, American greens, which sometimes meant bland.
All in all, however, I rate Chart Hills highly and would love to go back.

SPDB

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2001, 09:02:00 AM »
The Hanse/Faldo course is being built by the Foxwoods Casino. The land is very rugged (rocky and extreme topo). Should be an interesting project.

Mike Kane

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2001, 06:42:00 PM »
Faldo's course here in Arizona is about 5 minutes from my house.  It will be the second 18 at an 800 room resort/hotel Marriot I think in North Phoenix (Desert Ridge).

The two holes that I have seen have the above mentioned bunkering, and one of the two is a risk/reward par four with a split fairway.  These big splashed faced bunkers split the fairway with the a great appoach angle if you gamble and win.  A well bunkered green comes into play going the safe route.

I am told from the tips it will be 6,500 yds with a lot of shot making. The opening is sometime in the first quarter of 2002.

The other 18 is a Palmer/Seay Design.  It is a residental driven 18 but as good as the Grayhawk courses without the cost.  Still not in the same league as Talking Stick.

The other 18 already in


Tony Ristola

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2001, 02:27:00 AM »
What participation does he have with his projects?  If it's just photo-ops and a little arm waving then is it really his work or a fraud on the public and the industry perpetuated by golf magazines and the properties publicists?  

I'd extend this to all slapping their name on work they had little to do with beyond supplying a "signature".

How, in a game deeply rooted in honesty and integrity can fraud not only make its way through the door, but now walze in as a commonly expected guest?  

The basic question is simple:  If "Mr. Z" had little to do with the project, why should he receive full or even part credit?  It baffles... and where is the press?  Isn't it their job to expose such gianormous abberations?  No... they celebrate these meisterworks... further perpetuating the myth.

Has it benefited golf?  Golf architecture?


caroline

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2001, 05:00:00 AM »
I can not believe this discussion. You should know, that the whole thing about pro golfers being architects is make believe. However everybody is in on it - the pro gets paid a very nice sum of money and the “real architect team” gets another job and a nice budget to work with. Finally the developer gets an attractive course because all average golfers would like to think they played on a course designed by one of there idols. IT IS BUSINESS so who should be interested in spoiling the illusion?

I am convinced that most great golfers could have sensible opinions about golf course design but to put it short that does not make an architect. Becoming a good golfer involves spending lots of hours on the driving range - but does that qualify you to become an architect?

I often used to get very irritated when someone would proudly tell me that they just played a course by Nick Faldo, Bernhard Langer or Co. especially if I know that what they played was a signature course and the pro was “never” there. A signature course – isn’t it obvious we are taking about a signature, not a design, not a professional handling of the project.

Ok a few pro have had enough interest in golf course architecture and design to get involve beyond the signature level (nice hobby and a good business). However I wonder what their courses would look like and play like if they did the job themselves.

Carl Lewis was a fast runner but could he design an athletic stadium? – think about it!


Tony Ristola

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2001, 05:35:00 AM »
Caroline:  It is business, you're 100% right.  But is it ethical business?  If it's unethical, then it's bad business practices at work.

Fraud usually never gets far out of the starting blocks, but in golf course architecture it hasn't just made it out of the blocks, it's sprinted all the way to the bank, and deposited the money... with the cops looking on and smiling... repeatedly.  It's accepted practice!

Who is the beat cop for such activities?  The architects themselves and the press?  Where is the press?  Collecting advertising fees from the bandits.  Have you ever heard a reporter ask tough questions to an architect?  Like...Sir, you have "X" projects in construction and "Y" projects in planning and permitting, you play 20 tournaments per year yet your name is on all of them.  How can this be?  Or:  What is your real involvement?  Then follow up with his other time consuming involvements and ask again...

Extinguishing the needless expenditure for frontmen would be good for golf investors as they wouldn't be half black mailed to hire a pro for six figures to front the project, and you would really know who is responsible for the work.  


John_Conley

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2001, 06:47:00 AM »
Aren't these names, "Nicklaus" "Palmer" and even "Fazio", just brands?  Walk through the grocery aisle and Mrs. Paul didn't prepare your fish sticks, Betty Crocker ain't mixing no brownies, Granny Smith probably died before the apple was picked, and your cookie never was within 1000 miles of the Toll House restaurant.

If people don't know that Bruce Borland and people like him did the bulk of the work for Jack Nicklaus, I don't think it is such a big deal.

The Touring Pros often set the tone for the work being done.  Why else would all Nicklaus courses from the 80s favor the faded 4-iron on all the par 3s?

For a funny story, see the Dick Waldo post.


Tony Ristola

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2001, 07:39:00 PM »
John.  What is wrong with telling the truth?  Giving credit where due?  Something which is actually written into the Code for golf course architects in some societies.  Unfortunately the industry has been Clintonized over the decades.  There are no truths anymore... there are many truths.  

Think of what a big separation this is from the game itself.  Move the ball without someone seeing you do it and you call a penalty on yourself.  Honesty.  Integrity. What you have just admitted is the industry of golf course architecture lacks both... that it is separate from the game. Old Tom, are you turning in your grave?  

Golf courses are credited to individuals supposedly for the work done.  A work of engineering and art.  It's common sense or?  

If Picasso didn't paint his paintings, but Mr. Borland did instead and Picasso only signed the bottom and collected the coin and gave the real artist a fee... is it fraud?  Of course it is.

John, you're the perfect example of what I mean.  Nobody cares.  No "big deal" it's been done for decades... so, so what?

Has it helped the game?  Reduced costs?  Raised standards?  Is this the high standards of our time?  Is this how we improve on the past?

That renaissance of design everyone wants so badly isn't going to come from the McGolf crowd, nor are they going to watch a bunch of young architects rewrite the industry code... but that's what a renaissance is... a rebirth... a renewal... higher standards.  Not doing things because that's how they have been done for decades.

It would put some architects and their associations in a strange situation.


Paul Turner

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2001, 07:54:00 PM »
I've walked Chart Hills, watching a tournament.  There are way too many bunkers on holes like the 9th and 16th, but the property rolls nicely and offers interesting shots. There are plenty of holes where you can chase the ball in using greenside cotours: 2nd, 3rd, 10th, 15th(good one),18th.  So it's not just formulaic stuff.

According to their website: A few of the holes are modeled on famous holes:  The 3rd is a Redan, the 9th is supposed to be inspired by Augusta's 7th, the 8th by Augusta's 14th and the approach to the 10th is a Road hole copy.  I only noticed the Redan and Road when I was there.


BY

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2001, 08:09:00 AM »
Tony, Caroline,
It's the same in the bigger "architectural shops," I've designed dozens of courses for the architect/owner/headliner but can't/don't/won't get any of the credit for them.

When you do all of the design, permitting and construction doc. and a good portion of the field work, who should get the credit? The architect or the company? I think the ASGCA allows for the headliner to get the top billing but the actual designer to get the credit for admission.

Funny story, I had to give the "headliner" directions to a site after construction started. This is a guy who prided himself in his involvement and personal attention, and sold clients on it. Needless to say, it's purely his course!


Scott_Burroughs

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2001, 08:10:00 AM »
A few months ago, Jeff Brauer explained how much Larry Nelson was involved in their "signature" designs (like Springhouse and Wild Wing Avocet), and I recall it was not much, if I remember correctly.  Can you refresh our memories, Jeff?

Some courses do distinguish between a signature course and ones that had a tour player "consultant" (like Hale Irwin at Tidewater, John Daly at Wicked Stick, Lanny Wadkins at TPC of Myrtle Beach, or Fred couples at Lost Canyons).  There's probably varying degrees of involvement of signature guys, from none (Palmer?) to a lot (?).


John_Conley

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2001, 09:19:00 AM »
Tony:

You are obviously more sensitive on this issue than I am.  Imagine a golf course architect goes across the world and maps out some instructions for someone to carry out.  He dies before the courses are completed.  Another accepts maps via the mail and sends them back with sketches for holes.  Is this okay?  Or to use your word - fraudulent?

Alister Mackenzie and Donald Ross did exactly that.  George Bahto tells us that Seth Raynor did all the work at Yale, a course often attributed to Macdonald.

You can fight it all you want, but since this is the way it will stay... you may find it easier to accept it.


J. Santos

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2001, 10:07:00 AM »
Faldo's current wife sure is an improvement on his last girlfriend and ex-wives.  They were all dogs.  I think the new wife has inspired his architecture but she hasn't helped his golf game very much.

Jeff_Brauer

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2001, 11:15:00 AM »
Caroline and Gentlemen,

I considered a reply to the thread title "Touring Pros as Architects", but declined, recalling that my earlier "expose" was labeled as a "Brave Post" by many here. And I have never posted anonomously... Well, I intended to once, but accidentally signed it anyway out of habit!

But to refresh memories, the instances where I have collaborated or "ghost designed" a course for a pro usually went something like this....

The pro signs on for use of his name and likeness in advertising, and a specified number of site visits, usually at his going rate for daily outings - $15,000 to I imagine $150,000 for Tiger. The number of visits is usually between 2-7, with 4 average.  Of course, the pro retains the right to come more often, but can rarely fit it in his schedule.  

Before the project begins, they usually throw in a free day, giving general direction and philosophy, like "make it playable for all" and "I like a traditional courses".  While I can't say that any of those comments have ever helped me design a specific feature, I have learned lots about how our best players play the game.

The pros will usually look over the first feature designs, and often offer some insightful comments.  Sometimes, they are really good, others, they are along the lines of "Last week I played a great hole at "X" club, and we should have one like that." Then, then, after we do the construction plans, it's on to construction.

One visit is for groundbreaking, one is grand opening, and two to five for actual construction visits.  However, during these visits, the media is always present, and we ferry them around, and even I have little time to review the course that day, much less the pro.  He may feel like he is offending me by suggesting something in front of the press that is too drastic a change, so he may not say anything. Sometimes, we would stage some field changes for the pro.  We would tell him that we have already decided to move a green, etc. and then let him suggest it in front of the adoring press!

Another real problem is if he suggests too much - something that is either technically or budgetarily impossible, given project conditions.  Sometimes, a bright press guy will know when he is off base, and I am left in a delicate position of diagreeing with a celebrity, or at least discussing private business in a very public setting!

This is not to suggest that these guys are  egotistical or frivoulous.  In fact, if they have done any consulting work at all, they ususally are very practical, and can tell what fits into a given construction contract without change orders, etc.  If all goes well, he makes a few good suggestions each trip and they are incorporated easily.  

As I have said, pure design is about 10% of getting a course built.  If the pros 4 days are as valuble as the 40 site days I put in (not to mention the 140 days we may spend drawing the plans, his contribution is from 2-10% of the pure design, which means about .2-1% of the total contribution to the project.....

Once he says "We need a fairway bunker here" and walks away, we have to decide:

How deep should it be?
How should it angle to fit the contours?
Can we make it:
  Visible?
  Drainable?
  Buildable out of, say, rock, or fill?

And so on.  If Nick Faldo really goes out and takes pictures of classic courses, I think he is a leg up on most of the others.  I don't know about you, but the claim of "seeing the worlds best courses" is more substantial to me if he has photos!  Photographic film is always better than "photographic memory" in my book!

Not quite on topic, but most of you would cringe, I assume, at what tour pros have taught me about how they play courses at the highest level.....and how design should acccomodate their games! It's amazing how they factor in everything before playing a shot to maximize chances for success.  As a corrollary, they want the course to help them, where possible.

They generally want total visibility, receptivity, few carry bunkers, more flanking bunkers, even more "save bunkers", no humps/bunkers in the middle of the fairway (the middle is the safe shot) and no humps in the middle of the green (see above).  If I was that skilled, and playing for that much money, I suppose I would want to reduce the amount of luck involved in any given shot as well.

I played a grand opening with Steve Elkington in South Texas once, after he had assisted with a few consulting visits.  Really a nice guy, and also knew a bit about architecture.  The sixth hole had a reverse slope with a lower deck, and I was curious to see how he would play it.  On the tee, he even commented on the reverse contours.  From his position in the fairway, he played it perfectly just right and short of the hole and ran it up.  I learned  the subtle features don't fool these guys! They really notice things most don't.

I know there are many factors that shape the evolution of golf architecture, but I have to believe the influence of tour pros is one of the biggies.  So is marketing.  While I sympathize with Tony, the money guys call the shots, and if they feel that names sell memberships and/or tee times, they will use a name.

However, in the Dallas Morning News last week was an article on the demise of the new Westin Hotel by the Texas Motor Speedway.  It was foreclosed in a record 45 days, the earliest ever for a hotel to default on its debt.

The article noted that September 11 had an effect, but the real culprit was that it was cross collaterized with the Greg Norman Signature Course, which brought the whole development down!

Now, I'm not saying any other course would have fared better or worse, and Norman's minimalist style was not expensive to build, so cost wasn't the issue.  But word from those who know is that Norman insisted on keeping several trees that shaded greens, and leavng greens at "ground level" despite being in the floodplain and adjacent to fast running creeks, and apparently no one with more architectural or agronomic expertise  talked him out of it.  

When I saw these greens, I knew they would wash away some day, and unluckily for the Westin, it happened the first year, so the course opened with several temporary greens, and many other suffering from shade.  Play dissapeared.  No name is enough to overcome a 13 Green/18 Hole golf course, so more experience/less marketing may have paid dividends in that design!  Hard to believe  racing fans would care if they played a Greg Norman or a Moe Norman...as long as it had 18 greens!

Arhcitects, historians and architecture buffs like accurate credit, and it's frustrating to think of pros getting more credit than they deserve.  One guy who tried to stem this was Ron Whitten.  He looks for who really does the work, and I am grateful for that.  

Jeff
 
 

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

ed_getka

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2001, 11:29:00 AM »
Jeff,
Thanks for the informative post. In the few months I have been reading here and meeting guys in the field it has been amazing how many non-design considerations go into building a golf course
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Matt_Ward

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2001, 01:30:00 PM »
Jeff:

Great post and I'm thrilled someone like yourself has taken the time and energy to itemize what "really" happens.

I often view tour players who think of themselves as architects in much the same manner as great ball players who think they can manage players in an actual game. Two different elements and few are capable of both. Playing the game is one think --building and designing courses is another.

Jeff -- given your background and expertise how much of a role do you see takes place with Jack Nicklaus or Tom Weiskopf in the actual development of a site? Are they just pointing out a few tangential points (i.e. move a bunker this way or that way, etc, etc)? Or are they really knowledgeable about the fine points involved that you deal with on a daily basis?

I agree that plenty of these guys are simply employed / hired to build a "brand" name to encourage home lots to be purchased and maximize general interest in the site.

Sometimes when I make course visits of the bigger names in the business for rating purposes I often think that many of the holes come from a recycled bin of previously done holes. How much of that is true do you think with the bigger firms in course design?

Thanks ...


Jeff_Brauer

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2001, 08:48:00 PM »
Matt,

The industry buzz is that Jack, Mark McCumber, and Crenshaw are the most involved. I also hear that Faldo is trying, as alluded to in some of those posts.  The rest are mostly marketing, throwing in a few ideas along the way. The word I hear is that even Weiskoph says he is more of a critiquer than an actual designer.

Even with those guys, I would guess that they have staff walk the property, do some routings and then they review them - Perhaps choosing from the best three options.  I say this because a) how could they have the time to route the 10 to 20 alternatives typical, and walk the site the five to ten times before a routing is finalized....and b) I doubt they have the patience/time, especially when working with a land planner to combine the course with housing, and/or the other issues that come up.  Usually, they have one day (typically Mondays, or Tuesdays available in any tournament week.  When I route, it takes more than one day.

Perhaps the most involved pro I know is Jim Colbert, and he did want to walk early routings at Colbert Hills, but we even had basic concepts ready before that. Before we ever walked the property, we did some concepts to present to teh PGA Tour and Land Owner showing different options of how much to blend the course with real estate.  Given the property, it is one of the few where I really thought it would be a better course if blended with houses, because that way it could follow the valleys, rather than crest numerous hills.....

The property turned out to be just a bit tough for all of us to walk, and he didn't get it all in on his first Monday.  He did come back next week, and another alumunus had his helicopter ready so we could fly potential routings more quickly. We made some decisions in the air - and left a few more "up in the air" for me to work out with the land planners later. But, I had a clear idea of which ideas Jim favored.

I doubt any of the pros really have the stomach to sit in on environmental, land planning, flood control or citizens input meetings that we typically encounter in the design of a course.  Who really does? But someone has to do it!

As far as recycling holes, I don't think that is strictly limited to the big firms.  I think most architects reuse their favorite concepts, and most courses by any architect will have variations of those on 12-15 holes, and a few experiments mixed in.  In my  case, I try to "mix and match concepts" as suggested by TEPaul on another thread, rather than use exact copies.  By changing out a few holes, fitting them to the topography you have and mixing and matching concepts, new holes emerge, and general style does change over time.  Perhaps the pressure is on the big guys even more, since their designs are a branded product in the minds of the developers who hire them.  

The coaching analogy is a good one, but I prefer Caroline's stadium designer analogy...Would you sit in baseball bleachers engineered by say, Barry Bonds.  "Of course these bleachers will hold up under the weight of 10,000 stomping fans!  Why, Barry has seen every major ballpark in America, and he knows what they are like under competitive conditions!"

Why doesn't that sound more silly when the Tour Player/Architect says the same thing?

Jeff

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2001, 09:33:00 PM »
I've posted this before, but for Tom Paul's sake, I am told by a very reliable source that all of Faldo's articles for LINKS are written by Nick Edmund, the English editor of "Following the Fairways."

Mr. Faldo does pick very talented partners to work with.

I won't "name names" on which Tour pros do the most design work, because the truth is I don't know, although I can make some educated guesses.  There are a couple who insist on doing more of the work than they should!!

I also find it funny that after pointing out the fallacy of Tour pros as architects for years, both Ron Whitten and Geoff Shackelford have chosen to become involved as consultants much the same way as Tour pros do ... for their ideas, of course.


caroline

Nick Faldo the Architect
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2001, 12:05:00 AM »
Jeff, great post – just as I was starting to think that no honest person could make it in this business.

Tony, I did not say that I find signature courses the right way of doing business; I was just underlining why so few are interested in telling the truth.

By the way, I do not have much of a problem with the fact that the boss I work for is taking the credit for my designs as long as I know that he is able to do the job himself (that is - if he had the time). I am not saying that I don’t care about getting my name printed on a design – just stating why I find that there is a difference between giving an architect company the credit as to a pro golfer in the case of a signature course.  


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