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Ted_Sturges

Lessons learned...
« on: November 22, 2001, 05:15:00 AM »
Since this site was established, there has been a great amount of facts, thoughts and opinions distributed.  I'd like to know from all:  What are one or two things you have learned while participating in this site that have enhanced your education on golf architecture?  

TS


Tim J

Lessons learned...
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2001, 06:04:00 AM »
Lets see...

1.  If Tom Fazio works on a good site and produces a worthy course, god, mother nature, and coal miners are to be given the credit.

2.  If Tom Doak or any other architect works on a good site and produces a worthy course we shall annoint him the next coming of genius.

(How do you do the smiley face!)


Ted_Sturges

Lessons learned...
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2001, 06:23:00 AM »
Thanks Tim J.  It had been a couple of days since someone wasted internet space with a comment that added nothing to the site.  Thanks for your insight.

Matthew MacKay

Lessons learned...
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2001, 06:25:00 AM »
1.  There is much more to golf architecture than first meets the eye.  It's an infinate learning process amalgamating art, science, mathematics, and nature.

2.  Subtlety is the essential virtue of a good architect.


Tim_Weiman

Lessons learned...
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2001, 07:05:00 PM »
Ted Sturges:

Maybe you are being unfair to Tim J. My perception is that many people believe certain biases exist at GCA.  His post merely reflects that underlying feeling.

What is most striking to me is the lack of self confidence on the part of people who enjoy the work of architects like Tom Fazio.  They seem especially reluctant to come forward and lead threads on why they like one of Fazio's courses.

One such person even sent me a private email prefering to discuss my feelings about Fazio's work privately rather than engage in discussion openly at GCA.

So, that's the lesson I've learned: either we aren't being very hospitable in our "treehouse" or people with views counter to the prevailing GCA perspective simply don't feel comfortable articulating those views.

Tim Weiman

Tim J.

Lessons learned...
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2001, 07:48:00 PM »
Mr. Sturges

It seems my attempt at some levity failed miserably.  I have enjoyed thouroughly reading the posts on this site and have learned...

1.  Many people do have intelligent, competent and otherwise insightful views on architecture.

2.  Many people are passionate about said views, which only enhance and add  to this site.  I apologize if I offended.


Ted_Sturges

Lessons learned...
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2001, 05:17:00 PM »
My favorite architects in the world are Seth Raynor and Dr. MacKenzie.  Having said that, I have several friends who are members at Victoria National, which I believe may be Mr. Fazio's best course.  I think VN is excellent and is a truly original Fazio design.  Those who would dismiss this course because Mr. Fazio designed it would be making a mistake. Visiting a course like VN is a great experience and will enhance one's education.

My objective in initiating this thread was to put together a thread that represented the "best of the best" list of what we have learned from this site. I thought this could be fascinating reading.  But so far, my request has received very little back in the form of tangible evidence of what we have gained from this site.  I think Ran and John would be disappointed to see this request go unanswered.  Have we learned nothing?

I'll give an example of what I learned very early from this site.  Ran describes me as a "Raynor-phile", as I've played many Seth Raynor courses and am a member of one.  Despite this, I was really unclear on what made an "Eden hole" an Eden hole.  Having asked this question, I had my education enhanced by Mr. Doak and Mr. Bahto on this subject, on this site.  I have got to believe that there are countless other examples of "learning moments" from participating in this site.  

Tommy N:  what have you learned here?  
TPaul:  same question.
Tom McW:  what have you learned?

I'd love to hear your answers.  I feel I will enhance my education by reading your responses.

To Tim J:

I'm sorry for my quick response to your post.  I have grown impatient with the argumentative and sound-byte posts here which offer me zero opportunity to learn something.  I actually appreciate a good sense of humor, and probably missed the mark in my respone to your post.  Please accept my apology.

To the rest of you:

Step up to the plate and tell us what you've learned here.  This could be really fun.

TS


Joel_Stewart

Lessons learned...
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2001, 05:22:00 PM »
1. Don't make incidental comments.

2. Always remember that someone on this web site will know more than you.

3. The subject of ranking golf courses by magazines will be a never ending discourse.

4. The people that criticize panelists and the magazines would love to be a panelist.

5. Don't argue for the sake of arguing (From Geoff).


aclayman

Lessons learned...
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2001, 05:39:00 PM »
To qualify your question I have learned too much to quantify in one sitting, especially with T-day bloat setting in. But the fact is I have learned from people who contribute, as much if not more than the sight itself. Grant it, without this site, I would never have been exposed to the gentle informative stylings of Pete Galea or the naturalness of Dan King. Do you wanna talk about Tommy and Gib and the rest of the candid intelligencia that discuss here on GCA.com?

All you have to be is within earshot and the synapses start a fire'in.

One of the more poinent was from Dan, who taught me; "it doesn't take much to ruin a good discussion".


Tim_Weiman

Lessons learned...
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2001, 07:08:00 AM »
Ted Sturges:

Candidly, I enjoy the Discussion Group at GCA, but I can't say that I've learned that much about golf architecture.

I hope that doesn't come across as arrogant, but I think learning about golf architecture depends more on traveling, visiting and playing many great courses, watching other people play, reading as much as one can about the field and, if you are lucky, spending some time with people who work in the profession.

As for GolfClubAtlas.com, the Feature Interview and "Courses" are a great opportunity to learn. I highly recommend them.  But, the Discussion Group, seems too often like a place where people come to debate rather than to learn.

Still, it is quite fun to meet people who share a common interest and to keep up with developments in the industry, e.g., new courses.

Tim Weiman

TEPaul

Lessons learned...
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2001, 01:52:00 AM »
Ted:

Yours is a really good question but to do it justice requires a lot of thought. Plus my memory works very strangely as to where I learned things.

I do very much agree with Tim Weiman though about where you really can learn about golf architecture and it's out there on the sites with the architects and supporting casts. Things happen out there sometimes differently than some on here probably think they do and sometimes for reasons that many on here are not much aware of.

And I agree with Tim on research and reading too. I hate to say it but most of what I really learned from some of those amazing educational books (particularly the text not the photos or drawings) was learned the second or third time I read them.

I learned that understanding how to do a routing (although a jigsaw puzzle with many many levels) is key to understanding golf architecture in general. That's sort of step one and then how the holes can come alive with interest and quality and particularly nuance is about the next ten steps and takes time, time and more time and that there are a number of ways to view that process--through linear formulaics, through the look of the hole, through the "shot feelings" of the hole, the hole through the eyes of any golfer, what the ball will do, what you would like it to do, what you wouldn't, what things look like, play like, not just from the tee, LZ, approach, green, but from anywhere etc, etc, and that sometimes it's  all a bit Rohrsachish, unfortunately!

I can see why some dedicated single course architects, like a Crump, felt the work may never end.

I learned that really good architecture is clever and creative and sometimes adventurous and personal "note" arrangement. I learned that good architecture, sometimes is like good writing--do drafts and look to eventually edit things out until something might be lean, maybe spare but the overall essence and meaning is all there without losing an iota or an ounce of meaning or essence. In this way I learned that an excellent hole can center on one clever feature amazingly well! I learned that really enduring holes can and sometimes do go through a very complex evolution of and to acceptance and admiration.

I learned how to effecively look for options, how to test them for effectiveness, function and use and how to take holes through the "golfer level spectrum". I learned how to analyze if and how a hole is working and functioning properly by analyzing its score spectrum. I learned some of the nuances and the bottom line importance of temptation! I learned the interest and utility of deception and visual deception and that in fact some of the best holes have degrees or large degress of Rohrshachishness! I learned to identify what makes holes not work or dumbs them down. I learned what a good bunker looks like and what it takes to make it and I learned how to analyze "lines" and the importance of naturalness (on some courses). I learned the overwhelming importance of the "maintenance meld" to make architecture fire on all eight cylinders.

I haven't been doing this that long but very intensely and those who I learned things from in one way or another either viewing or talking with in chronological order with exclamations for quantity of education (my mentors so to speak) are; Shackelford!!, Coore!!!, Hanse!, Doak!(Pacific Dunes), Goalby!, and many others here and there. From at least one of them I learned to always be mindful to know what you don't know. From those not living Thomas!, Hunter!, Tillinghast!, Flynn?!, MacKenzie!(13 points), Behr!!!(!!!)--the exclamations in parentheses is when what (the rest of) this amazing man wrote finally sinks in!

I learned I personally hate ratings and rankings and also comparative architectural analysis more each day (most of what this site is all about) but that can be accepted and amelerioted by understanding that there  can be my way, our way, their way, a whole bunch of different ways and I learned in the final analysis golf and its architecture really is a great big game and there is room in it for everyone....always has been and probably always will be!

What did I learn on this discussion group? As I said, probably a little of all of this or at least it's a great place to bounce thoughts off of--there are lots of shades of grey on here! There are some very talented people on here, some in specific areas only but very talented nonetheless!


Jim_Kennedy

Lessons learned...
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2001, 04:27:00 AM »
Ted,
One thing I have learned here, and this may just be my interpretation of what I have read, is that there is a finite number of strategic concepts in GCA. The architects who understand, adapt and apply these concepts in relation to the ground over which they toil seem to produce the best work.  

 

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ted_Sturges

Lessons learned...
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2001, 04:29:00 AM »
To TEPaul:

Really enjoyed reading your thoughts.  Thanks.  I too have found out in the last few years that I don't enjoy lists and rankings (and no, Joel Stewart this participant really doesn't want to be a panelist for any magazine).

I want to clarify my question a bit.  I did not ask what you have learned from this DG, but rather from the site overall.  I appreciate Tim Weiman's opinion on the fact that he has learned more from the course reviews and feature interviews.  I'm just curious to know how we have enhanced our education from this site.  I just don't believe we all "knew it all" before we got here.  


T_MacWood

Lessons learned...
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2001, 05:02:00 AM »
It would be impossible to list everything I've learned since I began participating on this site, but I'll list a few.

That golf course rankings are interesting and fun to debate, but by themselves, there is very little to learn from them and they can be limiting. The majority of the very interesting courses profiled on this site are not ranked. If someone say X course is OK, but its not top 100, should that matter? And to rank an individual course by a number or some other rating is fine, but it really tells you very little.

The more that I learn, the more I want learn. The more that I read, the better I'm able to analyze a golf course. The more courses I see, the more sense I get from what I read. And its good to have broad interests, you'd be surprised by what you might pick up from a totally different subject that might realate to you interest in golf.

That there is very little agreement on this site among its participents, which is good. Everyone looks at courses differently, everyone has slightly different priorities and perspectives, and very different tastes. When I see blanket statements and unequivocal pronouncements made about a particular course or an architect or this site, I laugh.  

Identifying my strengths and weaknesses is the biggest lesson I've learned, and continue to learn.


BillV

Lessons learned...
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2001, 05:04:00 AM »
The lesson to be learned is in the title of the thread "Golfclubatlas biased?"

Anyone who does not have favorites is in denial.  Therein lies the key.  There is a preferred bias here as well.

I've mostly learned more about how the business affects the design, and to the degree that it does.

I've learned that not everyone appreciates subtlety in the same way.  Quicker to see it in some places than others?

I've mostly learned of places to play being here.  Places that are different than the "mould" for any  particular creator.

Call me a cynic, all politics is local.


Evan Fleisher

Lessons learned...
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2001, 05:04:00 AM »
As a rank amateur, with no formal architectural training whatsoever, I find this DG as a place to hang out (from the sidelines, so to speak), and jsut soak it all in.

There are so many folks with different backgrounds and experiences, that I enjoy just sampling what people have to offer, which in turn hopefully enhances my experiences on and around the golf courses I play.  I think that a shear respect for strategic layouts, and a sense of what "feels" right on a golf course are some of the concepts I have learned from this group.

I also have to echo Tim Weiman's sentiments about the educational uses of this website.  The course reviews and write-ups, feature interviews, and In My Opinion sections have been quite enlightening and enjoyable.

I don't really come here to become a "scholar" of golf course archtecture...just to really raise my awareness of golfing tradition, history, design, and to share thoughts and experiences of my favorite game in the world and the passion I have for it.

Lastly, the personal meetings I have had over the past several years with folks from this DG and it's predecessors has truly enriched my understanding and respect for golf, it's courses, and the people involved in maintaining and upholding the game.  That (to me) has to be one of the strogest "educational opportunities" this DG has to offer.

Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Brian Phillips

Lessons learned...
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2001, 05:07:00 AM »
1. I have learned to meet people on this site that although I feel have no idea how to build the ideas they have or discuss, are genuine lovers of architecture.  I have printed out out more pages from this site with ideas of holes and designs from people like TEPaul than any other site.  

I do however feel that this site is full of Americans that only seem to know about American architects, like Doak, C&C, Hanse, etc but know nearly NOTHING about the new young architects in Europe.  Why...because when they come over to Britain they play the old established courses not the new ones as they don't have time.  Some people on this site really do believe that Doak invented minimalist design.  Architects have been doing that in Europe for years because of budgets are so small in Europe compared to America.

2. That Jeff Brauer is the man to listen to.  If ever I make it as a golf course architect then Jeff will always be mentioned as the man that inspired or helped me the most from over the water.  Everyone on this site could learn so much more if they really, really  read what he writes as all of it is absolutely true when it comes to the construction of a course.

3. That most of the people who post on this site do not realise how much red tape/client opinion there is behind a certain mound or lake or stream that looks out of place on a course that was forced on the architect.  Sometimes there is so much going on behind the scenes that it can't even be written here.

IMHO as usual...ha ha

phillipsgolfdesign@c2i.net

Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Jeff_Brauer

Lessons learned...
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2001, 05:20:00 AM »
Brian,

Aw Shucks, (imagine awkward shuffling of feet here)!

Ted,

If I have learned - or at least reinforced - one thing here, it's the obvious that there are sure a lot of differing perspectives on architecture....

If I have learned two things, the second is that they sure are passionate perspectives!

If it has value in my work, it is that I won't jump off a cliff with some new idea, untested for me, but it always helps to know from discussions and course profiles that an idea may have been tested somewhere else - often a long time ago!

There is also value in questioning things that "you know have to be true" from time to time.

Jeff

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ken_Cotner

Lessons learned...
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2001, 05:23:00 AM »
Easy one for a beginner:

1.  Choices are good.  Look for them.

2.  There is not necessarily a direct correlation between difficulty and quality.

3.  Ditto for relationship between tournament venues and quality.

4.  Faster green speeds are not necessarily better.

5.  Width can be good.

6.  One must be VERY careful about preconceived notions when seeing a course (e.g. "This is a Ross course, it must be great."  Or, "This is a xxxx course, it must be unworthy.").
Too many more to list.


Brian Phillips

Lessons learned...
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2001, 05:32:00 AM »
Jeff,

I didn't realise that you would bother to read this post.  Could you send me a quick e-mail so that I can let you know what is happening over here (with me).

I see that you like me are now getting more time to post because of the winter setting in.

phillipsgolfdesign@c2i.net

Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

ForkaB

Lessons learned...
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2001, 05:34:00 AM »
That the owners (defined broadly) of a golf course have far more impact on its enduring quality than any "architect," dead or alive.

RJ_Daley

Lessons learned...
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2001, 07:20:00 PM »
I have become more aware of the concept that fundamental golf course architecture and design principles were reccognized and identified early on, and to a large extent everything that comes after the first 1/3 of 20th century is more or less a rehash of what was observed, commented on and practiced by the early architects/designers.  I don't mean construction techniques as they have obviously become more efficient through greater capacity by way of power and technology.  I mean the ideas of design and what makes the game so very alluring.

I have become more aware of the wide cross section of people that share the basic passion about golf course design, whether it is through their playing skills to fully take advantage of the subtleties of design, or because they are very observant and curious people that have a passion to pursue design as a game onto itself and apart from just being fortunate to play well.  In either case, something about the fields of play attracts disparate classes of people, inspires ideas, incites emotions, and draws out deep down innate passion in a manner similar to what John Strawn wrote about in his closing pages of the book, "Driving the Green".  Man has an innate feeling about the fields of play, whether it was the hunting instinct across the grasslands or whatever.  He must pursue something that is cunning, strategising and clever across the grassy plains.

Also, going back to the great writers and Darwin's observation "you can drink their booze and 'schtoop' their women, but don't say anything bad about their golf course", fits in nicely with that innate characteristic of territoriality we have.  We love our homeland playing fields, and will defend them passonately.  

Sometimes, I think of GCA as similar to David Feherty's series of humorous stories about the MacGreagor Clan and the Scroughts Woods Club rivalry.  If you haven't read them, do so since many of the characters have similar characteristics to our friends herein the GCA.  Again, I learn that we are all birds of a feather who flock together to enjoy a passion for something that is timeless and insatiable in ways no other sporting pursuit seems to coalesce people of varying backgrounds.

These lessons or realisations go beyond how to build a golf course.

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

paul albanese

Lessons learned...
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2001, 08:08:00 AM »
That there are people who know how to intelligently discuss golf course architecture -- I thank the golf gods I found them.

GeoffreyC

Lessons learned...
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2001, 12:58:00 PM »
Great answers everyone. I agree with most of what has been said.

I do learn from many posts here but especially from the people in the business. I truly appreciate the architects that post here - every one of them regardless of whether I agree with what they say.  The insight I gain into the realities of the business end are priceless.  Same thing for the superintendents.  Please don't stop posting Mike Rewinski, Pete Galea, Matt Burrows, Bill Perlee and all the others I've left out.

I've learned from the books recommended here and from the many conversations I've had with Tommy N and George Bahto. Mostly though I've learned from playing with many of the people I've met on this board and others whose eye for details and features that work on a course is far then mine. They would be Bill V, Mike Cirba, Tony Pioppi, Pat Mucci, Andy Ryan, Matt Ward and the others I've met more recently like Brad Miller and Paul Turner. Thanks Guys!


GeoffreyC

Lessons learned...
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2001, 01:05:00 PM »
Should have read
whose eye for details and features that work on a course is far BETTER then mine.

And idiot me forgot to include golf's most beloved figure Ran with whom I've played several rounds and learned a LOT each time!


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