News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


TEPaul

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2001, 05:43:00 PM »
My goodness Mark, you really can't be serious making an analogy to what Fazio  said in his book about Golden Age architecture and what C.B. MacDonald said about what preceded him.

What preceded MacDonald was a rash of the most God awful architecture anyone has ever seen! Just look at the first page of GeoffShac's "The Golden Age of Golf Design" and you will see the essence of the "geometric era" that MacDonald was looking at and speaking about--it's grotesque and that's the style he was complaining about!

If you or anyone else is seriously trying to say that Fazio has any real respect or  understanding of the "Golden Age" course and its architecture in this day and age then how can you possibly rationalize his remark about Cypress Point? He says very few owners would want a course like that with its back to back par 3s and par 5s.

Come on Mark, are you really going to try to rationlize away the quality of Cypress Point and its architecture (back to back 3s and 5s and all) like Fazio did? It's the most idiotic remark I've ever read from a well known architect! You can say anything you want about him but you can't explain or rationalize that one! I'm sorry but one has to draw the line somewhere and that's just about as stark as it can get!

I'm sure he wishes he could take that remark back, but he can't--there it is in his own book--"Not many owners would want a course like that today"--T. Fazio.

My ass, you probably couldn't find an owner on earth that wouldn't want Cypress Point and if you could I'll guarantee you that owner wouldn't know the first damn thing about golf course architecture.


Mark_Fine

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2001, 03:07:00 AM »
Tom,
Page 175, Scotland's Gift Golf - "Any golfer conversant with the golf courses abroad and the best we have in America, which are generally conceded to be Garden City, Myopia, and the Chicago Golf Club, knows that in America as yet we have no first-class golf course comparable with the classic golf courses in Great Britian and Ireland."  He goes on to say he is going to change that!  He may have been right but it still sounds arrogant to me!  Wonder what others "at the time" felt about his remarks?

Tom Paul,
If I met the guy I may feel otherwise, but I think you and maybe others are taking some of his comments too literally.  My guess on the Cypress Point comment is that he is not dissing the course, he is simply questioning the back to back hole layouts and feels (right or wrong) that today's golfers probably would question something like that?  I still remember a early post made by Tom Doak on this site, questioning the group about his back to back par threes,... at Pacific Dunes?  He felt it was the best routing but evidently even Tom had the thought (or some concern) in the back of his mind.  

Tom M.,
We know Fazio "can" build an excellent golf course.  Did he just get lucky on those projects where that was the result?  I don't think so.  He understands golf architecture better than we think.  He just may "not care" as much about it as most of us do!  

Tillinghast once said, "the great majority of golfers in America have but little skill when compared with the comparatively few stellar performers".  Maybe Fazio thinks strategy is overrated since so few players can do what they want with a golf ball anyway.  He may think there is plenty of strategy for the majority of golfers in just about any golf hole design.  Most golfers can make any hole interesting.  He may think just make the holes pretty and well conditioned and they won't know the difference!  Unfortunately, I think he might be right!  

Anyway, I don't really think he is undermining what the dead guys have done.  He is just not as passionate about their work or just chooses not to show that passion for "business" reasons.  To me he clearly does believe golf course design is a business first and foremost.  

Furthermore, how much influence is Fazio really having on the majority of golfers?  I contend very little.  My guess is 99% of the golfers teeing it up around the country today and everyday are not playing on a Fazio golf course.  The far majority may never play on one.  Heck there are people on this site who have never played one or maybe only one or two.  

The main problem I have with Fazio is when he gets involved with restoration work.  He clearly wants to "improve" the golf course and put his stamp on the design.  Like someone said earlier, I guess we should be yelling at the people authorizing the work.
I wish he would leave the classic courses alone but that is for the owners of those courses to decide.  
Mark




T_MacWood

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2001, 04:39:00 AM »
Mark
Nice try  . Quite a stretch, I like the part where you say he goes on to say he's going change that -- what a complete ass! Of all people why would you have a problem with a little arogance? One man's arogance is another man's confidence, it only becomes arogance when the person is a complete idiot. And now you drag poor Tillinghast in to the fray, shame on you.

I think you may have missed the point of this thread. No one was debating the quality of his golf courses or the relative skill of the American golfer, it was an analyses of his comments about golden age architecture.

Slightly off the subject, I think it is interesting he would prefer to build on a featureless site like a parking lot, I think he disses the Man up-stairs more than the golden age architects.


Mark_Fine

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2001, 05:13:00 AM »
Tom,
I know it's a discussion about Fazio's comments on Golden Age Architecture.  I just think there are different ways to read between the lines.  

On Fazio's Cypress Point comment, why did Tom Dosk not get critized for questioning the concept of back to back par threes at Pacific Dunes.  He may not have had a real issue with it but the thought did cross his mind enough to post it on GCA??  Yet Fazio brings up the concept at CP and people think he is bashing the golf course.  I don't think he is bashing it at all.  He stating the same concern as Doak did at PD!  

You have to remember, right or wrong, architects like Fazio and Dye and Jones and most of the other modern guys "build" golf courses, they don't "find" them like many of the architects of the past.  They have a different mindset and also a different customer/client to deal with!  I'm not saying I agree, I'm just stating a fact.
Mark

By the way if you want me to type the rest of Macdonald's quote I will    Tillinghast's comment was right on and you know it!  Even you would have trouble debating what I said there.  


T_MacWood

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2001, 05:36:00 AM »
Mark
The reason might be the total context of their comments. The reason MacKenzie built his back to back par-3s is because the land dictated it. The reason Doak was considering it was because the land dictated it, and why should someone get criticized for asking for help/input? Doak built the holes, and probably was going to no matter what, because that is what the land dictated. Fazio could care less what the land dictated, he uses the oddness of back to back threes as an excuse for his bountiful imagination to take center stage, why sould he have to work with the land as those old lost souls did, when he can do it better anyway?

The different customer/client is an excuse not founded in facts. How are their customers/clients different than past customer/clients?

Tillinghast comments were right on what? Right on another thread, about another subject perhaps. Yes I would be interested in Macdonald's exact quote if you believe it better illustrates your point, because right now I don't see a connection between Macdonald's level of study/respect for the past and Fazio's.


Mark_Fine

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2001, 07:12:00 PM »
Tom,
Not to get off the subject but I don't really buy the land "dictating" the routing arguement.  You can't tell me that there is only one best way to route a golf course.  It's the architect that ultimately chooses the final routing and the types and order of golf holes, not the land.  I'm sure for example that C&C could have "found" back to back par threes at Sand Hills if they wanted to.  

Anyway, we're going to disagree here but that's ok.  If you want to hear the rest of Macdonald's quote, grab your Scotland's Gift book.  

Got to run!
Mark


BillV

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2001, 08:54:00 AM »
Having read Fazio's book very carefully, probably before most of you and listening to him in the aforementioned address in Indiana in September, I think not to interpret his comments as negatively directed towards Mackenzie, Ross et al would be a mistake.

Unfortunately or fortunately, since Brad never called on me with my raised hand to re-phrase a question to Mr. Fazio, we'll all have to wait to know for certain.  

My take is that at the very least Fazio dismisses the importance of what architects in the past were able to do with existing ground and how it created "design" as we know it.

I would have loved to ask him something like "Given the presupposition that classic architecture   uses natural features as they exist and used natural rather than created features in routing courses, how would you so approach a buliding such a course and if you wouldn't, why not?"

But maybe he wouldn't understand that question either.  He certainly doesn't have to answer that question, does he?

Mr Fazio builds nice golf courses.  Depends on your definition of nice, though.  Style vs. substance gets in the way most of the time for me though.

There I go bashing again, somebody stop me.


jim_lewis

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2001, 11:08:00 AM »
I want to thank Geoffrey and Brad for responding to my request to quote specific statements from Fazio’s book and cite the page numbers. I don’t happen to agree with either’s interpretation of the passages they quoted, but at least I am pretty sure they have read the entire book.

I don’t imagine that anyone who has posted on this thread is likely to change his mind in spite of  anything I (or Tom, Lou, Rich, or Mark) might say.  Fazio’s statements can be interpreted in a variety of ways depending on the perspective or pre-disposition of the reader. It’s sorta like my own pre-disposition to find something negative and self-serving in any words spoken by Bill Clinton.

My original post was aimed primarily at the hundreds (?) of lurkers and occasional posters who may not have read Fazio’s book and know only what they hear on this DG. I was trying to get verbatim quotes from his book posted to allow anyone interested to form their own opinions.

I think that most of his statements, which could be interpreted as dismissive of the Golden Age architects, have already been cited in previous posts. I would like to offer a few others, which, I believe, add balance to this picture.

In a 1995 interview (which I have on tape) Fazio was asked what he thought Donald Ross would be doing if he were alive today. His reponse:  “He would have many telephone receptionists answering calls seeking his service, and the rest of us architects would be competing for second place”

On pages 33-34 of his book he says, “One of our advantages today is that we can see examples of the works of past masters like Ross, MacKenzie, Tillinghast and Flynn. Golf designers can study their courses and decide what they choose to accept as models of good golf course design. Those are our textbooks, out library of golf architecture.”

Excepts from the following passages from pages 68-74 have been quoted in previous posts. With the reader’s indulgence I would like to quote it in its entirety as I believe the context is useful.
“In the so-called classic era, designers picked ideal sites whenever possible where golf holes could be easily fit into interesting terrain, but even those ideal sites often had flat or unattractive area that couldn’t be avoided. So designers connected the interesting areas with holes that were not so grand. That’s one reason we find a few ordinary on SOME (he didn’t say all) of our most famous courses.  Today, we couldn’t get away with that. After playing a new course, a golfer might say something like: ‘Well, it was pretty good, but there were one or two weak holes.’ In other words, the golfer didn’t like one or two holes. The challenge of the 1990’s has been to build golf courses with no weak holes.

The competition among owners and designers to gain instant recognition is probably the principal reason for the current trend toward grander and more dramatic golf courses. So much is written about golf courses and golf design that stories and press accounts now have become part of this competition. In the past, clients were satisfied with, and golfers were content to play, a course that had three or four memorable holes. Now every new course has to have eighteen ‘finishing holes’, each of which can be the subject of a spectacular photograph for a magazine advertisement or the front cover of a tournament program. Is that a good thing? I won’t judge either way, it’s just the way things are.

We don’t find too many memorable photographic scenes on SOME of the older, classic designs. Pinehurst #2, for example, is not dramatic in appearance because it was designed to be played rather than photographed.  My photographer friends tell me it’s a hard golf course to photograph, probably because it has so few sharp features or contours. There are no creeks or lakes or waterfalls on Pinehurst #2, nor strong elevations. Yet it’s one of my favorite golf courses and certainly ranks among the best second shot courses in the world. Does that mean the newer courses are overdone? Perhaps some of them are, but I also wonder how high some of the top twenty courses would rank on today’s lists if they were brand new and hadn’t been designed by a famous architect. If a golf course with the quality of Pinehurst #2 were built today, one that had great shot values and design features but little sizzle or flashy eye appeal would it be well received by golfers and writers and resort owners? The expectation people have today for instant visual impact, the ‘wow’ factor, suggest to me that those days are gone. Golfers want to be thrilled, and they will compare each new course with the best they have played before. Golfers and owners alike want instant gratification. A phrase we hear a lot today is the ‘now generation’. And it’s as applicable to golf course design as to anything else in our culture.”

Judge these comments as you wish. My view is that he his not dismissing or criticizing classic architecture as much as he is lamenting the expectations of most modern golfers, journalists, raters and owners. I presume he is specifically thinking of those big-bucks clients he usually deals with and the members/guests who play their courses. I have never seen the quote directly, but someone here recently attributed to Tom Doak a statement that if The Old Course were newly opened today, it would probably not make Golf Dogest’s Top 10 New list. If Tom Doak actually said that, does anyone really think he was criticizing the course? Of course not! I think Fazio was trying to make the same point.

BTW Tom MacWood, to answer your question, I agree completely with Fazio’s comments about Pinehurst #2.

I was in the room at French Lick when someone asked Fazio when/if he was going to design a classic golf course. His response was “What IS a classic golf course?”  Many in the room (including Brad and BillV) apparently took that to mean that he is so ignorant that he has no idea what a classic course is. I took it in the same manner I would if someone were to ask, “What is a beautiful woman?”  meaning that the term has a variety of definitions. What’s yours?  Much like the term “old days”. As he points out, different folks of different generations have different definitions of that term too.


It is a fact that the tastes and expectations of most golfers and owners are different today (not this group, of course!).  How would we react if Steven Spielburg were to suggest that he could make better movies today than in the “old days” because of technologically advances and that if it were released today, Gone With The Wind would not win an Oscar?
Wonder if Sinatra, Valentino, Elvis, Buddy Holley, orHank Williams would be stars if they were just now appearing on the music scene. I would still love them all, but I doubt that most consumers of today would.

If you read this far, you have no life.

"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

TEPaul

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2001, 12:06:00 PM »
Why does Tom Doak not get criticized for asking a question of the opinions of Golfclubatlasers about back to back par 3s and par 5s?

Well, quite simply really--why would somebody criticize Doak for asking someone's opinion of somthing? Mark, you're also completely wrong about what Doak asked! He wasn't questioning the concept of back to back par 3s and par 5s at all! He was merely asking what people on this site thought of the concept! Actually the holes were already built so I hardly think he was questioning the concept--that would appear to be a moot thing to do.

Fazio, on the other hand isn't even remotely asking a question on this subject (using Cypress as an example). He is stating in no uncertain terms that owners and the golfer today does not and will not accept such things. It would be nice if he did ask such a question but he did nothing of the kind in his book!

You can search between the lines all you want but any reasonable person can only conclude the same thing from his statement about Cypress Point and there certainly isn't a question in it.


GeoffreyC

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2001, 01:40:00 PM »
Jim Lewis

Thanks for your comments and for taking the time to type the entire quotes from the book.  If you read enough of my posts you can see my typing/spelling skills combine to produce some glaring errors. My resulting typos could have ended up with Mr. Fazio's being elected president of the dead architects society  

Now please remember that my comments come from a fellow who upon speaking with you at Victoria National actually appeared to like the course more than you did!!!

I also heard the entire phone interview with Mr. Fazio and I read the entire book afterwards in part because I could not believe just how much he 1- wanted his next 150 courses all ranked within the top 20 and 2- talked (my take on this) down to us just as it appears to me he is doing in the book. I firmly believe that he thinks technology alone can result in better courses. I also think it is the responsibility for a supposed leader in any field, golf architect included, to be a visionary whose resulting products win over the public due to their quality and unique insight and not just to produce a product as a knee jerk response to what he thinks the public will accept (ie blind shots) or demand. There are numerous examples in the book of statments suggesting he will not try to create anything he thinks might be controversial.

I think all of this criticism might in fact be a moot point if he just left all the "classic" old courses alone. His original work will or will not be accepted over time. The words written in the book and spoken in the interview, however, COMBINED with his willingness to take quasi-restoration jobs really presents a powerful argument for his true opinion of old classics in my opinion.


Tommy_Naccarato

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2001, 03:21:00 PM »
I want everyone to notice the remarkable restraint I have had all weekend with this post.

Now if I could only use this same restraint when I get a plate of pasta smoothered in marinara in front of me.

Surely all of this restraint must mean something??????

Jim Lewis, your comments on this will be welcomed.


TEPaul

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2001, 04:00:00 PM »
TommyN;

All this restraint does mean something! It means you're smothering your odium for all things Fazio in pasta and marinara sauce!

This could very well be a step backwards for the future of golf architecture!


jim_lewis

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2001, 04:27:00 PM »
Hi Geoffrey

Actually I agree with post of your contributions to this DG (except our ongoing disagreement about the merits of Yale #18).

Your latest post triggered a few thoughts that I was reluctant to mention on my earlier post because it was already so long.


Regardless of how one reacts to Fazio's words, what he says is far less important than the product he produces. I thing the same applies to any architect. Judge him by his courses, for better or worse, not his books.

Market leaders do have an opportunity and a resposibility to lead and Fazio is a market leader. I too, would like to see him lead and that includes leading his clients. He has the power and the credibility to exert more influence on his clients than he seems to do. Victoria National is a good example. Terry Friedman made it clear than it was his idea to create the double fairway on the 13th hole and that he insisted on having water cross in front of the long par 3 sixteenth hole. Those are probably the two worst holes on the course and are two of the reasons I don't see that course ever deserving a top 20 ranking. It would be a better course if Fazio had stood his ground.
One problem he does have that some architects don't face is that most of his clients are very wealthy individuals with strong personalities who are used to calling the shots. I wish he would refuse to work for a few of these guys (and perhaps he has) unless they back off and give him a free hand.

I certainly think he ought to get the hell out of the business of tinkering on classic courses.

You question whether he will ever produce any courses that are controversial.  I would be interested in your opinion as to what type of "controversial" course you have in mind. It seems to me that several of his courses like Shadow Creek and Victoria National are pretty controversial.

One thing I would like to see him stop doing is leaving large trees directly in the line of play. I hate the tree that blocks the left side of the 17th green at Wade Hampton, the large oak that blocks the left side of the 18th green at the Barton Creek Canyons course,and the large oak in the middle of the 14th fairway at Daniel Island. The tall pine in the fairway in front of the 18th green at Berkeley Hallis also a nuisance although there is room to work the ball around it. Those are some controversial features that detract from my evaluation of all those courses.

Tommy:
My original post was actually addressed to those who have a copy of Fazio's book. I just assumed that you and anyone else who did not post a response probably either didn't have a copy or had nothing to say about Fazio. Right?

"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

BarnyF

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2001, 04:43:00 PM »
Jim Lewis,

Thank you for accurately summarizing what was actually said in Fazio's book rather than just reading between the lines to benifit your own cause.  The truth is most times boring and of little use to the opinionated.  I have seen many instances of Fazio using so called Classic Architecture in his designs that are dismissed as either accidents or mistakes by the "silent majority".  Is the front to back sloping diagonal green on the par five number three at V.N. a tribute to the redan style greens designed by the Classic Architects or is it just a quirk of fate.  I don't even feel like arguing the point because I am starting to find that so many architectural gurus can not see the stategy of a Fazio course because they look as photographers and not golfers.  Thanks Jim...your logic is so true it has even silenced TommyN.


Craig_Rokke

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2001, 04:50:00 PM »
 www.golftravelinformation.com/interview/fazio/

This interview, relating to Fazio's book, might shed some more light. He appears reluctant to offer too much praise to Ross
and his contemporaries. It also seems
clear that he feels Fazio designs
stand on their own merits without needing to
"borrow" much from the Golden Agers.


T_MacWood

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2001, 05:48:00 PM »
Jim
I agree with your assessment that most raters are overwelmed by glitz and pretty scenes, no matter how artificial they may be -- that is the reason for the instant popularity of several modern designers/courses. I do think Pinehurst #2 would be among the top 20 courses in the country dispite Fazio's view that it is not photogenic? What other courses in the top 20 would suffer from being opened today?

I do not believe that Fazio is simply following the trend that courses need to be photogenic, he created it and perfected it. And that is one of the reasons his courses enjoy instant, yet brief, noteriety (as Brad K. pointed out), unfortunately many of them are missing something -- might that be a lack of accord with nature?  

And of his view that the golden agers created a mediocre hole or two due to flat or uninteresting ground, he claims they did not have the abitlity to move dirt which is historically inaccurate -- are you aware of course Fazio created that does not have several mediocre holes?

It is nice to drop the names of Ross, MacKenzie, Flynn and Tillinghast, but what evidence have you seen that he appreciates or understands their work? What do you make of his redesign of Inverness and Oak Hill, do you consider it the work of someone who appreciates the work of Ross?

Do you think his work at Merion and ANGC shows an understanding of Flynn and MacKenzie philosphies? What evidence do you have that his comments are not merely lip service?

John aka BarneyF
I have not read single comment that dismisses a Fazio strategy as a mistake. You deal in a fantasy world in which Fazio is some kind of martyr (a very successful martyr) -- please join us in reality and cite examples.

The only thing that is boring is the book, which why no one has a copy and is unable to cite specific examples. I'll be sure to pick it up at the library this week, because I'm sure I'm the only one who has ever taken it out.

The par-4 11th at Sand Ridge is known as Redan, although the green is not close to a classic Redan, it is a very interesting green. But classic golf architecture is more than incorporating a superficial feature or two, it working in accord with nature -- which is Fazio's greatest weakness.


Tommy_Naccarato

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2001, 06:30:00 PM »
Jim, Be assured, I will always have a lot to say about Fazio.

However, you are indeed right. I don't have the book, nor do intend to purchase material that I feel is NOT beneficial in educating the reader about great golf course architecture. That is my opinion. You don't see me quoting passages from the book do you?

Reading Mr. Fazio's interview in Golfweek, when the book came out was enough for me to realize that he and I are in different universes. (His being the more expensive and costly one that is framed nicely with a surrounding nebula.)

Pretty pictures aside, How does it compare to the written work of an amateur architect like Captain George Thomas or Robert Hunter? Did you get more out of the Tom Fazio book then the books by those gentlemen? If so, maybe I should then add it to my collection.


Mike_Cirba

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2001, 06:44:00 PM »
Craig,

That's some timely interview you've found, which should at the very least end the speculation as to the "interpretation" of Tom Fazio's true feelings and inspiration of Golden Age architects.  

Whether or not one agrees with his thoughts is another question entirely, but let's stop arguing about whether or not he considers the great courses of the past as an ideal for his trade.

It also answers the question rather directly as to why his "restorations" and "remodels" are so out of sync with the original designs.


Mike_Cirba

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2001, 06:53:00 PM »
One other thought..

Fazio also seems to make the case that Donald Ross is much more popular today than he was in his own time, as if to say that this is just a bunch of sentimental hogwash.

Yet, from Brad Klein's book, one learns that Ross built about 20 or more percent of the courses built during the Golden Age, in all corners of the country and golf world at the time, so the preposterous notion that he is now more popular is simply a self-serving statement meant to "disparage" Ross's true contributions and cache during his long tenure as the greatest living architect.  

To cite a strictly resort course like Pinehurst #1 which is almost 100 years old to make his point, just stretches credulity and is the height of absurdity.

You know...I'm really a person who thinks Tom Fazio is a very talented architect who has really built a good number of fine original courses, yet the more I read of him in print and the more I see of what he is doing to classic courses....

The more I wish that someone sends Fazio to Great Britain for 18 months and forces him to sit along great holes and watch play proceed 12 or so hours a day.  I can't imagine what else might shock him out of this self-satisfied attitude that suggest his courses will begin to have the longevity of popularity that courses built by Ross and others of the Golden Age have had.  


Tommy_Naccarato

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2001, 07:02:00 AM »
Mike, Are you kidding me???????

Send Fazio to Great Britain to look at old golf courses? Why? So he can screw those up too?

Imposter! give me back the old Mike Cirba right now!!!! This PC version absolutely sucks!


Mike_Cirba

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2001, 07:18:00 AM »
Tommy,

Did I say he'd be there WORKING?!!!

No, I didn't.

Ideally, he would be in one of those Hannibal Lechter restraints, or perhaps more like something from Clockwork Orange with his eyes forced open to look on the play of every level of golfer who comes upon those holes... situated behind the green of a different hole each day, starting at Cruden Bay and then sent via helicopter to site after site, hole after hole, his inert and inactive being forced only to think...not create or tamper....

Until finally....on his last day, he is sent to the 12th and 13th and 14th holes of The Old Course, where he is to spend 6 hours per hole on the longest day of the Scottish summer, forced to consider the various options and alternative routes and shotmaking potentials of each hole until his final release and possible redemption.

If that doesn't work, we can start him up again over here on NGLA and work our way West until he finally breaks down seeing the "restoration" work done to Riviera.    

Political correctness, my ass.  


BillV

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2001, 01:34:00 AM »
To Jim Lewis and anyone else present at VN that evening

The actual exchange went

Rater: "Mr Fazio, would you ever design a course in the manner of a classic course design?(Paraphrased)"

Mr Fazio: "I don't know what a classic course is." (Very close to the exact words.)

It definitely was a negative "I" statement.
That's why I had a classic presupposition ready to present to him. (Attorneys try to be as specific as possible, Doctors try open-ended questions to start to all ow one to expound.  (I've learned both and the differences of intent of each.  I trust my memory very well here.  He either didn't care, know (Really scary to think about) or played dumb.)


jim_lewis

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2001, 03:43:00 AM »
Since I started this thread, which is chock full of different theories, speculation, and assertions regarding Tom Fazio’s true attitude toward the classic course designers, I would like to offer my own theory, which has evolved as I read all of the preceding posts. First, I must acknowledge to BillV that it was, indeed, at Victoria National (not French Lick) where we interacted with Fazio via a speakerphone hook-up and that his memory of the exact wording of  Fazio’s remark may be more accurate than mine.

I said it before, but let me be more direct. I really don’t care what Fazio (or any other architect) thinks of the early designers, or any other subject for that matter. I will judge an architect by the courses he produces and nothing else. I don’t care whether I like him personally, how good a player he might have been, how much time he spends on the site, whether he posts on this DG, how famous he is, how much he donates to charity, or who he supported for president. The finished product is the only test I use.

Here’s my latest theory regarding Fazio’s attitude toward the classic architects:

I think he is convinced that given the improved technology and financial backing at his disposal he can produce courses that are as good as any produced in the past. He figures he is as good as any of his predecessors and takes a back seat to no one. He seems to take pride in viewing each new project as a unique challenge and deliberately tries to avoid mimicking any holes or course previously built by himself or anyone else. He may give minimal lip service to admiring the old guys, but he will not bow down to any of them and hold them up as his models. He has had a lot of success doing it his way and has more lucrative business coming his way than he can handle. Why would he want to change or share the credit for his designs with anyone other than his own staff? I notice that he never seems to mention Raynor, even when giving his lip service to the old guys.  I suspect that he sees Raynor as representing an approach to design which is opposite his own.  Raynor consistently repeated building the same holes. Fazio, claims that he goes out of his way to try to make each design unique and to avoid being influenced by holes he built before. Ironically, he is still criticized by many who think his courses are too similar.

Now, I certainly have no more inside knowledge of what Fazio thinks than anyone else here.  This is only speculation on my part. But what if I’m right? So what?  Most people who are at the top of their profession have a lot of pride and confidence. Do you guess Steven Spielburg thinks Cecil B. deMille made better movies than he does. Do you figure Barry Bonds attributes his success to what he learned from studying films of Babe Ruth?  Let’s face it. Fazio doesn’t seem to revere the classic architects as much as we do. Now, if he would just stay the Hell off classic courses and let the owners hire someone else to do their dirty work, maybe we could agree to focus our discussion (arguments) on the new courses he produces. Some of those are very good, some only good, and some only fair.

"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Mike_Cirba

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2001, 05:23:00 AM »
Jim Lewis,

I believe you are 100% correct in your speculation, and very much wish as well that Tom Fazio would focus on new designs, and leave "restoration" "remodeling", or whatever else one wants to call it to those who seriously practice "sympathetic preservation".

That won't happen, though.  The problem as I see it is that the same healthy ego you mention makes him certain that he can fundamentally improve our greatest courses with a little of his modern magic.  That's where his lack of respect for his predecessors evidences itself most glaringly.      


BCrosby

Fazio disparages Golden Age architects? ??
« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2001, 05:46:00 AM »
Jim -

I basically agree with you.

Fazio can design courses however he wants.  He can ignore/down-play the Golden Age if he so choses.

I believe, however, that he does so at his peril.

The Golden Age guys deserve attention not because a bunch of wingnuts on this site like their work.  They deserve attention because they designed the best courses ever.  And if I were a practising architect that would get my attention.  Big time.

Like a Doak, I would make it a first order of business to understand them.  I would think it would be important to my development as an architect.

We can disagree about that.  Maybe Fazio is so supremely talented that studying MacK, Ross, Flynn is a waste of time for him.  I've seen no evidence so far that he is so talented.  But time will tell.

As for your Barry Bond analogy, I guess I don't know what Bonds could learn from Ruth even if he wanted to.  

As for Steven Spielberg, he views Alfred Hitchcock, Frank Capra and John Ford as gods.  He and other modern directors have studied their classic films in great detail.  Along with Scorsese (sp?), Penn and others, Spielberg acknowedges often and without hesitation his enormous debt to the older masters.

I guess I'm just surprised that Fazio is not inclined to do the same.  You would think that Fazio would think that the old masters would have something to contribute to his growth as an archie.        


Tags: