Stanley Thompson's Impact on Canadian Architecture

[T_MacWood]

Thompson produced a number of proteges, including Trent Jones, what kind of report card would you give these men, and in particular those who did most of their work in Canada.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Cornish, Moote, Watson and Robinson are the four that stand out.

In terms of contribution to Canadian golf, Cornish did the bulk of his original work in New England. His only course of real note in Canada, is Ashburn, which is not regarded as groundbreaking. Cornish's restoration work in Canada is far more extensive.

Robinson would be the most prominent and while some of his original work is quite good, his role in restoration and turfgrass is his highlight. Also, and Cornish talked about this in Nova Scotia, but Robinson was construction supervisor of a lot of the original courses. Cornish also noted the close relationship that Robinson and Thompson had. Robinson would receive top of the class honours from me.

Moote's work is more and from what I have seen, not outstanding.

I know little of Watson's work, so I really cannot comment. Perhaps Jeremy Glenn could comment here.

Amazing though that none of pupils could match the sheer brilliance of the teacher.

[Matt Kardash]

Watson has many courses in Quebec. While some of them aren't bad most are just course basic parkland stuff. I grew up playing a Watson course 5 days a week in the summer from the age of 11 to 17.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Like Ben, I've always been amazed that not one of Thompson's 'students' managed to produce a single outstanding golf course. For whatever reason, none of them did. Although, Bob Moote's still working, so perhaps he still has a chance!

Robinson's most notable work was probably the remodelling Thompson's original design at St. George's in preparation for the 1968 (?) Canadian Open. He reworked the green at the par 3 3rd, moved the 4th green, moved the 9th green, reworked the 10th green (I think? It's been redone on several occasions), and moved the 15th green, amongst other changes to bunkering, etc.

I've researched the evolution of St. George's and am not yet convinced that any of those Robinson changes resulted in improvement. In fact, the 4th and 15th were regarded as two of the very best par 4 holes in Canada when Robinson decided to move those greens, changing both holes to par 5s. And Thompson's original 3rd hole, as shown in an old photo taken from the tee was perhaps the best par 3 on the course.

These days, Tom McBroom, Doug Carrick and Graham Cooke link themselves to Thompson via Robinson and Howard Watson. McBroom and Carrick apprenticed under Robinson, and Cooke worked with Watson for a time.

[Matt Kardash]

This is kind of funny because as I mentioned above, I was a member at a Watson course, and now I'm a member at a Cooke course. My Connection to Thompson is strong I guess. I never even realized that. From what I can tell Cooke Does better work than Watson.

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

Would that make me a great-granprotégé of Stanley Thompson?  

I don't really have all that much info on Howard Watson (wasn't he a military pilot at one point?).  But his mark on the Quebec golf landscape is certainly more one of quantity rather than quality.

[Jeff_Mingay]

...might look good in your promotional package when you break out on your own, Jeremy: 'Jeremy Glenn, a student of master Canadian golf architect, Howard Watson'  

[ian]

You missed Norman Woods in that list. I think everyone's assesment is correct. The work is suprisingly middle of the road with only Trent Jones showing moments (Spyglass to name one is very good).

The connection to Thompson is dead long ago, but anyone from Rod to Doug to Graham to Les Furber (even Vernon Macan was influenced by his creativity. His influence is much larger than a few people who worked for him. Everyone who has posted here appreciates his work. Even contemporary architects like MacKenzie praise courses they visited.

Stanley had flair in everything he did. He lived flamboyantly and had no worries about money or next week. He reveled in the moment and spent his and everybodies money till it was gone. He always knew his clients would be happy and would forget everything bad that had happened on the way to finishing the course. Usually massive overspending. Nobody on that list has his personality, therefore what are the odds that anyone would be as creative.

While Chales Blair MacDonald is a Canadian, Stanley Thompson will always be Canadian Golf Architecture.

[Ran Morrissett]

Did Thompson's strong personality prevent him from being a good/effective communicator?

If that is the case, is it expecting too much for those that worked with him in the field and later became architects to have produced better courses in Canada?

I can DEFINITELY appreciate that Thompson's flair for routing a course would be hard to grasp but his flair for building bunkers and bold green contouring - surely that could have registered a bit more with some of these folks?  :-/

[Tony Ristola]

From my experience with west coast architecture...not much if any.  I doubt most Canadians know who he is. My bet is if you asked them they would guess he was a guy who played defense for the Maple Leafs in the 1920's.

There is a nice project on Vancouver Island by Cooke, but as I have noted before...the locals call it a Ted Locke project.  

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ran,

As I understand it, quite the opposite is true about Thompson. He was a brilliant communicator. Mr. Cornish says he was, in fact, the greatest communicator in the history of golf course design. Where do think Trent Jones learned his salesmanship? Old Stan, of course!

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Jeff is correct on the communication, which makes the outcome even more puzzling. Perhaps Stan surrounded himself with good construction people who would not challenge him. It does not seem as though he sought out these workers, Cornish and Robinson seemed to be more happenstance.

Tony R,
In the last five years or so Thompson is getting his due. With the recent Score rankings placing his courses 1,2 and 3, it seems more and more people know who he is. The only negative is that everyone is calling their course a Thompson. Even Score magazine credits a number of courses, which were not Thompson originals, nor bear his touch today.

[Jeff_Mingay]

That's an interesting tidbit Ben brings up, too.

There are quite a few courses in Canada labelled Thompson designs that actually aren't.

Take Beach Grove in suburban Windsor, Ontario for example. If you can believe it, the course was laid-out (probably in 'mail order' fashion) by Devereux Emmet, about 1920. The construction was carried out by Thompson, Cumming and Thompson.

For years, Beach Grove has been called a Stanley Thompson course. [Which, for me, growing up in Windsor, was a very poor first impression of Thompson's work! I was happy to later find out that Beach Grove's label was in correct.]

My theory is, decades later [perhaps in the 1960s], no one at the club knew who Devereux Emmet was, so it was much more fashionable to link Thompson to the course.

Again, this same type of thing has occurred elsewhere in Canada, too - in most cases, where Thompson, Cumming and Thompson carried out the construction but didn't design the course.

[ian]

Jeff is correct about the misconception about what was done by Stanley Thompson. Thompson Cumming and Thompson built courses like York Downs for Charles Alison, and are often incorrectly thought to be a Thompson. Brantford was designed by Nicol. Summit was initially routed as nine holes by George Cumming. Cumming (pro at Toronto Golf by the way) laid out Mississauga. Nicol Thompson did Midland by himself. Waskesiu was done by someone from the parks (still bizarely so wonderful its worth playing if in Saskatoon area) The list goes on.

Stanley, through others stories who had met him, was very definate in what he wanted to see. he may not have been a great teacher because he did not need the imput of his assistants. You need to learn bu mistakes and successes, but if you only supervise the finished product, there is not a lot of opportunity to learn.

And Tony, you underestimate the nationalism that embraces Thompson and you underestimate the knowledge of Canadian golfers.

[BCrosby]

Do any of you Thompson experts know anything about Thompson's involvement with the Hyde Park course in JAX?

I believe that C&W give Thompson partial design credit.

Bob

[Jeff_Mingay]

Bob,

My friend, Jim Barclay, who wrote Thompson's bio. (The Toronto Terror), didn't find any records that Thompson actually worked at Hyde Park. Although, he did say, Thompson opened a branch office in Jacksonville about 1925, which is the year he supposedly worked on the course.

Brad Klein shows Hyde Park as a new Donald Ross designed course, opened in 1925, in his Ross bio.

So, who knows what happened down there 78 years ago?

[henrye]

Tom.  Your topic got me thinking about which of the great architects (being a Canadian I put Thompson in this class) were good proteges, teachers, role models for those who followed?  Jeff Mingay has pointed out that the best known currently practicing architects in Canada link themselves to Thompson, but can only do so indirectly.  Which of the current "popular"/"successful" architects have direct links to the greats and is it apparent in their work?

[Jeff_Mingay]

henrye,

Pete Dye. There's a remarkable number of guys who've since done good work who can 'link' themselves to Dye, starting with his two sons, Perry and P.B.

There's also Bill Coore, Tom Doak, Rod Whitman, and Bobby Weed. And guys like Scott Pool, who haven't done a lot of work, but have done some good work nonetheless, after having 'appenticed' under Dye.

Pool's Legend Oaks (?) course near Charleston, S.C. is a special treat when compared to what most golfers are subjected to in the Charleston area.

Funny though, I wouldn't say that any of those guys' work resembles Dye's stuff - aesthetically, anyway. (Although there are some sleepers at Whitman's Wolf Creek.)

[Matt Kardash]

Jeff,
Probably nobody want to copy Dye because he has such a distinct and monumental style. Mind you that didn't stop Perry and P.B

[henrye]

Without making any comment on Pete Dye, I was thinking more in terms of the golden age architects (this is more whom I link Thompson in with) - MacKenzie, Ross, Colt, etc.  How were they as proteges?  Certainly, we know that they all influenced  golf architecture and any student is likely to study their work, but did they produce any greats who worked directly with/for them?  I ask this to understand if Thompson is a rarity or in the majority.