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Michael_Choate

Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« on: May 27, 2003, 10:41:53 AM »
I have just returned from WS.  The course conditions are very poor, in fact they are giving everyone $100 off the regular rate.  Apparently, the winter was very tough on the fairways.  In many places, they have tried to resod the damaged areas or have seeded the damaged areas and have topdressed with a lot of sand leaving quasi-bunker shots.  I thought the fairways were sparse in many places last year before the winter damged them further.  Have any of you more knowledgable on this topic seen the course this year and if so, should the PGA be concerned or will things be fine in a couple of months as we were told?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2003, 11:16:14 AM »
I thought the fairways were as good as they had been, last August.

They will come around this year by mid-summer I would imagine. Was the damage that severe that it could not be fixed in 15 months?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

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Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2003, 11:41:34 AM »
After what the USGA did to Salem on short notice, I think prevailing wisdom is that a lot of money and attention can bring back a course in a short period of time.  The PGA is in August, making last winter ancient history as far as the grass is concerned.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Kelly

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Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2003, 12:12:56 PM »
I played Whistling Straits last August and while the fairway looked a little sparse it played fine.  Still the course didn't play nearly as hard and fast as I had hoped especially considering that they hadn't had rain for a while.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2003, 01:15:14 PM »
Fescue fairways are less conducive to a quick fix than other types.  But they do like frequent and heavy topdressing, so maybe that's all you are seeing.  I hope so!

Truthfully I have always wondered if Wisconsin was the right climate for the fescue ... and I know Pete Dye had his reservations, too.  If this doesn't work out, everyone (particularly turf professors and salesmen) will swear fescue fairways don't work, and they'll be wrong ... you just have to have the right course manager and the right conditions.  Look at Bandon or The Kingsley Club or Sand Hills.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2003, 01:31:25 PM »
Tom what would make Wisconsin different than Nebraska and Michigan from a turf point of view.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2003, 01:40:19 PM »
Nebraska:  the Sand Hills are very, very sandy.  Whistling Straits was not, although they tried to fix that by importing tons and tons of it.

Michigan is milder than Wisconsin because we're on the east side of the big lake.  It's cooler in summer because the winds off the lake cool us down; it's (a bit) warmer in winter because the lake doesn't freeze.  When it's minus-twenty at Lambeau Field it's probably only zero in my backyard.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2003, 02:52:59 PM »
Who knows if these are some new types of fescue strains?  Is the relative humidity the crucial factor in success?

I know Josh Mahar(Wild Horse) has some difficulty with the low fescue but as was explained to me, the added attention is worthy (justified)because it is core to the design intent.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Swanson

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Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2003, 03:33:29 PM »
Adam,
   Are you saying the fairways at Wild Horse are fescue?  I thought they were a bluegrass variety.  At any rate, the grass on the fairways at Sand Hills is very different, blade-wise, than the grass at Wild Horse.

Brad S.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt Kardash

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Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2003, 04:02:34 PM »
Maybe Ran can shed some light on the subject since I think he must have recently been to Whistling Straits becuase he has put up a whole new set of photos in his course write-up

The course looks strangely very green in his new pics.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Jason Hines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2003, 05:11:54 PM »
Hi Brad and Adam,

Wild Horse has fescue around the greens and blue grass in the fairways.  I was also under the impression that that fescue is a blend?  Or maybe SH is a blend?  It looked like a true fescue to me, but I am a novice.  Someone correct me if I am wrong, but maybe that’s why it does better here than in Wisconsin. .  On another note, I was at Wild Horse on Saturday and noticed the blue grass in encroaching on the fescue, which was good for me because I can hit better chip shots from the blue grass compared to the thin fescue.

Take Care.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2003, 07:34:31 PM »
I am no expert either.  However, I do believe that Whistling Straits has a soil base that is very clayey.  To do the subgades and build up the extreme contour, they trucked in enormous quantities of what we call Kewaunee and Oshkosh clay loam.  Then the top soil they placed over that appeared to me to be more clay than loam-sand.  I don't think that is a good medium to grow fescue.  Combine that with the average degree-day temperatures and humidity cycles, and I don't believe that fescue can be expected to do well.  But, I am not a turf head, so ask one of them for the right answers.  I also think the fairways are a blend with a high component of rye.  But, looking at Ran's recent pictures taken with the last few days, one can see that like most courses here in Wisconsin, we were hig unusually hard with a late freeze thaw and freeze again cycle causing much late season winterkill.  Many courses had already started mowing and then got hit with that vicious cycle and lost big areas in fairways and greens.  Ran's pictures of a spring green up are somewhat uncharacteristic of the goal of what they want to present to the PGA in late Augus, 2004.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Top100Guru

Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2003, 08:02:51 PM »
It was my understanding that Whistling Straits was told by the PGA that they had to change the Fairway Grass from the Fescue to another type, I had heard bent or something similar....are you "Certain" that these fairways are still fescue???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2003, 08:41:25 PM »
Brad-Jason is correct that the green surrounds at WH are fescue. I was also under the impression that the fairways at SH were mostly fescue but were also having difficulty. I may be wrong.  
In this weeks superintendent news there's a piece on how Dick Youngscap may use snow makers to protect and water his fairways in the winter. He called the idea a "detailed hunch". What a forward out of the box thinker this guy must be.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2003, 08:46:00 PM »
Adam,
   I'm pretty sure SH is fescue all the way to the green, and that WH is bluegrass in the fairways and fescue in the approaches and green-surrounds.  I remember last year that the areas around the greens at WH were mown about as tight as anywhere I'd played.  Looking forward to being challenged by them again in a week or so if all goes well.  ;)

Brad S.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2003, 05:24:10 AM »
Brad- I know that the fwys at SH were originally all fescue, I highly doubt they are still. Just the need for a detailed hunch is all telling.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2003, 02:39:14 PM »
As prompted above I went to see the new pictures. Since I've yet to golf WS, and a Pete fan, I was curious. WHat I saw was cool but Ran posted a picture (the first one?) from before the course had opened. What caught my eye was how the unfinished cliffside was way cooler than the grassed over version. If you look in the backround of the other pictures you'll see the natural cliffs along the coast. The sharp edge of the bunker (cliff?) in the undone (pre-opening) pic looks more fitting. Not necesarily to the rest of the course but in the natural environs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2003, 02:44:47 PM »
Adam, that bare cliff as you refer to it is actually totally piled up and man made.  That shoreline was practically flat before they piled it up.  All you are seeing there is piled fill dirt, not a sand dune or cliff.  The side hill of fill pile had to be stabilized with grass and sleeper RR ties.  I stood on that very spot with Pete Dye where that pic of 17 was taken and he was very excited to explain how the entire beach and coast was flat before he started...I got a picture with him there to prove it  ;) :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A_Clay_Man

Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2003, 03:48:14 PM »
That is amazing Dick. Those cliffs look like the north shore coast almost exactly. I Suspected the growth was more than aesthetics. I just think that the pre- grow in pic is art.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2003, 08:21:51 AM »
I'm bringing this back up as it relates to Ran's post on Whistling STraits.  Adam, I may be misunderstanding you about the cliffs on the shoreline.  I am saying that the cliff down from 17 green and all the holes for that matter that are perched above the coast are infact built up.  However, you are referring to the coastline in the background, perhaps the area between the 18th tees, and the 8th green.  That is obviously wild and somewhat natural where the mature trees are.  That is where the creek dumps into the lake.  Not that the furthest back 18th tee is practically backed up into the lake.  Some players there don't even notice it because it is so far back.  

I have said all long that one of my first impressions and concerns about WS hosting the PGA is the severity of the man-made piles of dirt making up the wild out-land separation dunes between the coastal hole corridors and the upper tier of holes.  I just can't imagine huge crowds being able to walk safely around them.  I was there for several days of the club-pro championships, where the crowds didn't seem to get above 3-5000, and folks were having to walk gingerly single file up around 11-16, and 13-14-15.  I will be very curious to see how they handle crowds of 25-30,000.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Doc

Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2003, 10:05:37 AM »
I have to say that Sand Hills is not all fescue.  In fact it is only about 50% fescue and getting less and less.  Point of fact Jim Kidd told me the superintendent overseeded the course to ryegrass one spring because the winterkill was so severe.  Last I played SH all of the low areas of the fairways were dark green rye, which was an obvious contrast to the light colored fescue on the knobs and there was poa in many places.  Fescue will not work for a fairway, tee or green turf in the most areas of the US unless the course has hover mowers and no play.  Even at the courses that have fescue and do not allow carts, it struggles. It does not withstand traffic and will always become poa.  It has happened at SH and High Pointe and is now happening at Kingsley and Whistling.  If Fescue is such a good match for SH, why is there an article in Golf Week's superintendents news about the course considering installing snowmakers to cover the turf in the winter??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jlyon

Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2003, 04:35:21 PM »
Doc, the future is always in doubt but Kingsley's fairways and rough is 98% fescue with sprinkles of poa and some intentional bent on the approach to the 17th green.   Dan Lucas (course super) would take exception to your comments about poa taking over.  He seems to know how to burn out the poa in the dry summer weeks and let the fescue reclaim territory.  The approach to the 17th was a problem given the slope, tightness due to trees (many since removed) and an unfortunate outbreak of pitium (sp?) in year one;  this area was overseeded with bent and fescue to allow for playability.  The ground is all sandy loam and is well covered with snow in the winter.  Being a founding member all I can say is that the fairway grass only gets better every year and the mowed fescue rough is becomming a significant factor.

I do agree with much of what you say about the trouble with fescue.  Many factors conspire against it including the desire to keep everthing green and moist.  Highpointe's fescue is history and even Lost Dunes was replacing the Doak's original fescue rough due to members complaints.

With respect to playability, the fescue makes for increased ground game options around the greens.  I cannot tell you the number of nearby courses where you have no idea how the ball will bounce within 25 yds of the green.  Kingsley requires the ground game on many pin positions under normal  conditions.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2003, 07:36:09 AM »
The technical complexities of growth habit, stress and disease resistance and fertility/water needs of fescue are way above my pay grade.  However, to add a morsel to this, I played a round with Lucas yesterday, and he described the turf in his fairways as a polystand of 7 different cultivars of fescue to promote diversity and manage competition for a heathier stand.

Also, to give credit where it is due for Sand Hills experimenting with the snow makers to add a protective snow cover, Mike O'Neil is the guy who brought up the idea to DY... ;D 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Doc

Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2003, 07:25:32 AM »
I think I need to clarify my post.  I am not trying to discredit any superintendent or golf course.  On the contrary, I am trying to defend them. Also, the only reason, I chose to discuss Kingsley, Sand Hills, and High Pointe, is because I have first hand knowledge of them.  When an architect specs a turf that he feels fits the style of the golf course and the location relative to climate and soil conditions, I would hope that they involve the superintendent.  In Kingsley's case I believe that to be true.  If I remember correctly Mike and Dan did discuss turfs and Dan agreed that they would try the fescue.  In many cases that is not the arrangement and a superintendent gets stuck with the turf that an architects specs, which in many cases is not a good fit.  Things go wrong and the superintendent in the vast number of cases is to blame.  If anyone is going to make the fescue work, it is Dan Lucas.  He is the king of firm, fast and dry.  It is how he kept Mistwood and it is how he has Kingsley.  I do fear however, that no matter what he does, he will have fescue knobs and bent/poa valleys.  If I recall, the vast majority of the poa already follows the drainage patterns of the course.  The entire course may only be 2% poa, but in some areas it is already pushing 100%.  As the membership increases, so will the traffic and divots, which will add greatly to the struggle to keep it poa free.  I also fear that he will eventually have a thatch and compaction problem, no matter how judiciously he waters and fertilizes.  I would like to know if he is going to aerify the fairways and if so, is he concerned about opening the turf and allowing the fescue to germinate.  Money takes care of many things, but in times like these, it is difficult to justify the extra cost of eradicating poa.  I understand that Sand Hills would play slightly different with another turf, but is fescue worth the cost of making snow?  Like I said from what I saw two years ago, they are already too late in all of the low areas.  Architects need to remember that after they leave the superintendent is faced with a limited budget and an owner that hates annual bluegrass.  I am quite certain that more courses seeded to fescue have failed than succeeded; yet they continue to build them.   The problem with the “burn out” theory is that fescue does not spread rapidly, so the poa will come right back, that is why it is there in the first place to be burned out.  Poa is an amazing turf in that it likes all of the conditions that thin out other turfs and its prolific seed production lends to its ability to slowly take over.  Fescue is not the magical grass that it is made out to be by some people on this site.  It is an awesome surface to play on and it gives some layouts an incredible look, but try to maintain it once and you will wonder if it is a war that can be won.  Some of the statements you hear from certain architects now days, make you think fescue does not need any attention, and in fact I think some of them think it is such a good turf it even mows itself!! Not true.  Lets have this same discussion in a few years and some of you might agree with me.
RJ-You have a wonderful place there, I just hope you do not expect miracles from a mortal, but like I said if it can be done, you have the right guy on it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doc

Re: Whistling Straits: Should PGA Be Worried?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2003, 07:32:56 AM »
Sorry, I meant to say that aerifying would open the turf allowing the poa to germinate :( :(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »