[Tom_Doak]

I'm so sick of this subject on the thread about "best new courses" I am trying to lure everyone here instead.

So there aren't enough guys in Bandon wearing jeans for some of you.  Sorry about that!  But just where DOES this phenomenon occur?  Perhaps in the midwest ... but most courses in America which have taken the mantle of greatness have seen such a large increase in demand that they've raised their prices.

Pasatiempo went from a public course to a club with $150,000 memberships ... and public tee times at $150 or $200.

Bethpage Black is affordable ... if you're a New York resident ... and only because it was owned by the state park system and they are prohibited from excessive price-gouging by the state and by an agreement with the USGA.

Old Works isn't really great ... but it IS affordable ... because the federal government threw millions of dollars into the pot to clean up a Superfund site (or to keep Craig S. happy!).

Where are the affordable ones?  Pinehurst?  Pebble Beach?  Torrey Pines?  Chambers Bay?  Arcadia Bluffs?  Hell, even the best courses in Myrtle Beach charge over $100 now.  For that matter, most of the well-known courses in Scotland and England and Australia are now expensive for visitors.

That's why there is a separate list for "best affordable courses".  It could also be entitled "Top courses which are good, but not good enough to command top dollar".

What's the best course in the world where the highest visitor / guest fee is less than US $100?  I'll vote for Barnbougle Dunes.

[Tom Huckaby]

TD:

My take was simply a small regret about Bandon itself... which at the beginning really was "blue-collar" but as you know is anything but now.  Of course it's the reality of things that it necessarily has to be this way... but that doesn't mean we can't pine for simpler days.  

I've also bitched even more about Pasatiempo, which I played for $15 when I was in college.  But again, the reality is what it is there.

Just understand that bitching about it and pining away for simpler days does not mean I believe it necessarily could or should be any different, at any of these places.

But when we do find a place that's great and cheap and blue collar, hell yes we celebrate it.  Places like Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon come to mind.

So what's the harm?

TH

[Phil McDade]

Tom:

Lawsonia, walking, any time of the year, has never been more than $100 (For '08, the high summer weekend F-Sun rate is $85 with a cart; it's a mandatory cart rate during that time on weekends.) Mid-summer twilight walking rate (post-4 pm, which still leaves 4-1/2 hours of sunlight, and the course will be empty) during the Mon-Thurs. week is $28, which might be the best value-for-what-you-get rate in the world.

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas:  of course golf should not.  But that doesn't mean we can't bitch about it.

 

[Brad Klein]

Tom,

how about

Links of North Dakota in N.Dak.
Bully Pulpit in N.Dak.
Wild Horse in Neb.
Old Works in Mont.

Do they count?

[Tim Pitner]

Tom,

As you know, the green fee doesn't only reflect the quality of the course--there are other factors at work.  Take Wild Horse as an example.  If the course were elsewhere, you'd be totally justified based on the quality of the course in charging $100+, but it's in the middle of Nebraska and isn't a private retreat like Sand Hills.  So, I'd take issue with your statement that the best affordable category is tantamount to "Top courses which are good, but not good enough to command top dollar."

BTW, I certainly don't want courses to be "blue collar"--nothing against people who do honest work for a living, but I'm looking for a different vibe when it comes to golf.  Nor, however, do I want anything snobby.  

[Brad Swanson]

Tom,
   I would say the answer to this (hypothetical?) question is yes.  There are practical examples listed (although the courses may not fit your strict definition of great), most of which have something in common with their geography.

Cheers,
Brad

[John Kirk]

I played Juniper Golf Club in Redmond, OR, a couple weeks ago.  $60 to play.  Very nice.

[Phil McDade]

Phil:  will you please s-h-u-t u-p!  People read this.  

I'm keeping quiet about the other one......

[Ryan Farrow]

I still can't believe Old Works gets so much notoriety and top 100 places (golf digest) i think. My favorite part of the course was the mine ruins and the foxes, the black slag bunkers was a nice touch but it seemed like a no brainer. I still think its priced out of its range for most Montanans.

I will have to nominate Apache Stronghold at 45 dollars, not bad for the best golf course in Arizona. I think the winter rates used to be around $90 but the conditions have brought that down. If they could charge $150 around they would so I guess I've got nothing.

Except for Papago!

[Jason Topp]

Some courses I would consider great with peak rates under $100:

Harvester, Rhodes, Ia
The Quarry - MN
Big Fish, Hayward, WI
Wild Horse - NE

[Mike Sweeney]

In support of my new redneck buddy, I think 17 holes at Long Shadow could be greatish after a full season or two of grow in. I was not a fan of #16. Top price to the public is $46 and it is 60-70 miles from one of the busiest airports in the country.

Same thing for Lederach. The houses will never let either course make a list but there is no way that they are not better courses than a few on the Best New list.

Lobstermen in jeans and George Bush hang out at Cape Arundle and I think that is a great short course which is what the average joe should be playing. $65 in peak season.

[Mike Benham]

If you want the measure of a blue collar course, the guest or visitor fee is not the measurement.  Joe 6-pack doesn't travel to play his golf.

LA city owned courses are ridiculously affordable compared to the cost of living in the surrounding area, add in Rustic Canyon and you have plenty of blue collar golf.


Tom - how many affordable blue collar courses have you built?

[Jason Topp]

What's the best course in the world where the highest visitor / guest fee is less than US $100?  I'll vote for Barnbougle Dunes.

With the plummet of the US dollar, I'm not sure Barnbougle qualifies

[Adam Clayman]

I understand there's a new project on the horizon, folowing the Wild Horse model, in the Kansas Sand belt along the I-70 corridor.

Can't spill the beans yet. I'm waiting to speak with the archie to confirm.
One clue...The town shares it's name with a blend of cheese.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Adam,

            Not too far from your homestead I see.  Interesting!

[JC Jones]

Tom D -

Public or private, or both?  Private, of course, would refer to the guest fees.

[Kalen Braley]

There seems to be a common thread between most of the courses that people have mentioned so far. Most are in  somewhat remote areas, even though exceptions like RC or Bethpage exist. Another course I would add to this mix is Indian Canyon which is by far and away the sweetest course I've played under $30 or $50 for that matter.

Yes Bandon breaks many of the rules on this, but at the same time as I've said in other threads, its the most amazing golfing complex these eyes have ever laid eyes on.

If a course like WildHorse was in the Bay area or some other highly populated area, I can guarantee it would go for a lot more.  By the same token if Barnbougle wasn't so remote, I'm sure it could command a much higher green fee.

So to answer the question, I think it can only remain "blue collar" if its in a somewhat non-populated area.  Otherwise, the word will get out, rates will rise, and thats that.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom: Yes, Wild Horse is the answer to your immediate question but the other issues you raise are far more complicated.  First, the weak dollar makes it difficult for Americans to play overseas and makes it easier for non-Americans to play in the US.  In Euros or Pounds most of the high end resorts are far more affordable.

I'm in the East and Myrtle Beach is far more affordable than Bandon. Hotels are cheap in Myrtle and golf at many courses is less than $100 while afternoon rounds and replays are cheaper.  You should also consider that at Bandon you have to walk and this means for many golfers that they are limited to one round per day which drives up the cost on a per round basis.  

I haven't done it, but many of my friends have done the RTJ trail which has cheap hotels and reasonable golf.  Williamsburg has inexpensive hotels and you can easily keep your cost per round under $100.  World Woods in Florida is not pricey and it is cheap if you don't go in the winter.  

The fact is that golf isn't a cheap form of entertainment but sometimes it is more reasonable than others.  

My question would be how much repeat business there is at Pebble Beach when the cost is being paid out of one's own pocket?  Also, how much repeat business is there at Bandon? I know some wealthy guys who have been back to Kohler, but most of the guys I know who have been there said they enjoyed it but the cost would prevent them from going back; same thing for Pebble.

[Jon Spaulding]

After paying $23 last week to walk Lawsonia, it should contend for the championship in this category, presuming the criteria is dividing overall quality by price.

Wailua on Kauai also has a favorable ROI.

[Paul Stephenson]

Just received an e-mail from Tobacco Road.  2 nights and 3 rounds for $239.  I know its fall, but maybe blue collar is seasonal.

[Dan Kelly]

Can a great golf course in America remain "blue collar" (for the lack of a better term)?

Of course it can -- if its owner is determined to keep it that way.

[Garland Bayley]

Given the press it has received here, wouldn't Bethpage Red qualify?

How are the courses on the Robert Trent Jones trail? Is the price right?

Doug wants somebody great to come do one of the Kentucky State Park courses. A good possibility.

I know it's not a guest rate, but the residents of Pierce County Washington have a great deal going for them.

Perhaps you see where I am going with this. Bill Gates thinks the rich get all the benefits of the US infrastructure and then are unwilling to pay their share back. Perhaps we need a new deal to get public golf back and get the industry and sport growing again.

What state is willing to create a tourism boost? How about a Tom Doak trail in Iowa? A Gil Hanse trail in West Virginia?

[Jason Topp]

For me the question should not be whether great courses can remain blue collar.  A more important question is whether a bunch of decent courses can be available for blue collar rates.  

I think that only occurs with municipal courses but my impression is that such courses are not built very much any more.  Most municipal courses I have seen have been higher end courses/ housing projects.

[Tom_Doak]

Dan K:

The corollary would be that in many places, to exist at that green fee, the owner would have to be a philanthropist who doesn't care if he ever makes his money back off building the course.  That's great, when they come around.  

The Rawls Course is well under $100, but it certainly wouldn't be if not for the generosity of Mr. Rawls.  In fact, it probably wouldn't look anything like it does, if we'd had to build something on a model of breaking even for $45 green fees.

Brad:

I already covered Old Works -- it's not "great" by my definition and it cost a fortune to build, but all of us taxpayers have already subsidized that one.  I have never been to North Dakota so I can't comment there, but it's North Dakota, so even an affordable course is only affordable 4 months out of the year ... you need three of them to count as one.

Garland:

I'd be glad to build a "Tom Doak trail" in Nebraska, but I've been assured by those in the know that if we did build it, it would lose money.  The RTJ trail in Alabama is only profitable once you write off the capital costs to an outside source as "business development," something that not too many states would consider in this economic climate.

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