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ForkaB

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #75 on: February 27, 2004, 02:17:20 AM »
Tom

One of these days I'm going to explain the CONGU system to you, yet again, in detail, but this is not one of them.  Suffice it to say that you are not listening!

1.  If a 6 HCP player shoots 88 in a medal, his handicap does not go to 18, it goes to 6.1.  If he shooots another 88 it goes to 6.2.  He's gotta play in a helluva lot of medals to get his handicap up to 18.  Alternatively, as Darren suggests, if, after shooting all these 88's he suddenly shoots a few 78's, he'll be back down to 6 before you can say "Bob's your Uncle."

2.  Forget about this "sample size" bugbear of yours.  For one thing, the "sample size" in the CONGU system is huge.  Just assuming 100 active members at each of the 600 or so clubs in Scotland playing 10 medal rounds a year, you have 600,000 scores a year, just in Scotland.  AND, these scores of of extremely high quality, in that virtually all of them will have been played strictly under the rules of golf.  I don't care what the "sample sizes" in the USGA systems are because they are of such poor quality as to be irrelvant for the purpose (i.e. determining the relative skills of players).  Just repeat the mantra "Garbage In/Garbage Out" next time you get the urge to post the words "sample size." ;)

3.  Per the above, and to confirm what Darren said, most active golfers who are interested in the game will play at least 10 "medal" rounds a year.  Some play as little as 3 (the minimum required to keep your handicap) while others (e.g. Darren and I) play 25 or more.  Virtually all clubs have weekly medal events, often more than one in a week, and there are also numerous Open competitions at other courses during the Spring and Summer.  I would suspect that the members of the various men's clubs with which you are affiliated, would be able to easily keep and use proper "CONGU" handicaps, IF they played all their tournaments under the Rules of Golf.  What they would not be able to do is go away for a couple of months, post onanistically during that period, and come back with a new handicap of 18 or 3 or whatever.  If you have proper clubs, which I think you do, this sort of behavior would not be tolerated.  So why do you tolerate it?

4.  The problems Darren talked about in terms of people not reporting "away' acores (for sandbagging or vanity purposes) has largely been resolved.  Now, any time you play in an Open tournament, yours scores are automatically sent back to our home club.  One can hold onto a lowish handicap for a fairly long time, but Category One players (5 and below) are audited annually by their clubs and regional associations.  In terms of sandbagging and high stakes betting, well as JohnV should know, and Rick S. and others have said, anybody who bets large sums of money against players they don't know, based on a handicap card they have in their pocket, deserves whatever ever fate awaits them.

5.  Pete L. makes the most compelling posts.  Read them and re-read them again.  The whole issue is about how handicapping systems influence the way the game is played.  If the ruling bodies promote a system in which a handicap is whatever any individual golfer thinks it is, based on "scores" which conform only very loosely to the Rules of Golf, then you get a game such as what is played in America.  And, what this is is not one game but many games, ranging from pure tournament golf through high stakes gambling games to buddies just playing each other every weekend to occasional participants for whom the cart girls are more important than the Maxwell rolls on the greens.  Talk about "bifurcation!"  US golf is multifurcated!  Always has, always will be--particularly as long as the USGA sticks with it's "let a thousand flowers bloom" attitudes to handicapping.

On the other hand, if the ruling bodies promote a system which is fundamentally based on the Rules of Golf and which requries all participants to play by these rules, at least 3 times a year, you end up with a game in which a very high percentage of ALL players play by the Rules, including the ones regarding etiquette. particularly pace of play.

6.  Don't talk about "participation" or inclusivity.  In the UK, anybody can find a golf club to join and get a handicap from, if they want to, even in places such as London.  Maybe I'm old ffashiioned, but I storngly think that if the powers that be (almost tyoped "posers that be...") really want to increase participation, lowering the hurdles may not be the proper way to achieve this.  One of the defining characteristics of the game of golf is its Rules and the self-discipline required to play within them.  If we say to new players, in efffect, "yeah, we've got these rules, and, sure, WE play by them most of the time, but you don't really have to if you don't want to" then are we surprised that what we get is far to many golfers who really do not know how to play the game?

End of rant.

Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #76 on: February 27, 2004, 05:41:25 AM »
Preach it, Brother Rich!

THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #77 on: February 27, 2004, 10:19:04 AM »
Rich:

I appreciate the rant, I really do.  And I am listening.  But apparently it's you who is not, because yet again, you have completely missed the point I am trying to make, again miss the very few but very real problems with CONGU, and again can't resist jibes that make this less productive than it might be, although I specifically asked to leave those out, in my quest to learn here.

1. If I come to Aberdour and shoot 88 in my first medal, my handicap must be 16-18, right?  I have never mentioned a 6 handicap having a bad round... what I said was a guy who has that type of skill, BUT NO HANDICAP ESTABLISHED YET... and then the guy who shoots an abnormally bad score as his FIRST ROUND EVER IN THE SYSTEM.  Or do you just take my word I'm a 6 and start as that for the basis?  If so, that's fine, but please confirm.  And if so, well... talk about a system that can be sandbagged it one starts from wherever one says, and then can have so little movement thereafter....  Darren's right that this is a relatively myopic problem, but a problem it is, because the change happens so slowly after the starting point.  It might happen in decent time there, but I still think so few medal events happen here, do that now and if I shoot an 88 in my first medal under CONGU here, it might be many months until I get down to what I really should be... and I play a relatively lot of medal events!  Woe be the guy who plays 2-3 per year if his lucky, who I still think would be the norm...

2. You so missed my point re small sample size, I have to question if you read my posts at all.  The small sample size is not number of golfers total or anything like that; rather, it is the very real weakness that one's entire handicap is based on SO FEW ROUNDS PLAYED BY THE INDIVIDUAL.  I've explained this several times above.  Darren and Pete each seem to have understood this and acknowledged it as a weakness, although each would also say the good outweighs this... which I am nearly prepared to accept... Just don't deny it as a weakness - it is very real.  CONGU gives better "quality" scores, being achieved in medal play under strict rules; but it doesn't give sufficient quantity to make for a truly real assessment of one's ability - unless one plays a lot of medal events, which I completely understand most people do over there, but I still maintain would be extremely difficult to make happen over here, due to the cultural differences.  You know this yourself... how many medal events did you play the last two years you lived in San Jose?

Look, this need not be so adversarial.  I truly believe CONGU is the superior system, when it works as it should, as it does over there, where medal events are regular and normal.  And yes, the words of Pete are powerful on the effect it has on people's respect for the game and the like.  In a perfect world it would be wonderful if we could back time up 110 years or so and re-do our original golf influences here, and change our culture, so that regular medal events and handicaps based on that were the norm here as well.  Sadly time machines haven't been invented yet, so until they are, and we can get a group of like-minded golf crusaders to effect this change, as much as one might say this is a great idea and wish for it, it just plain won't be so.  A lot of it has to do with the very real difference from how private clubs are here and there... it's so much more expensive and difficult to join a private club here.. so where CONGU may work for members of private clubs here, at which regular medal events can be organized and promoted quite effectively... well... I just have serious reservations if it would ever work for public course golfers.  It's just so against the norm...

No ranting here, just trying to make sense of this. Any further help I would indeed appreciate.

TH


ForkaB

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #78 on: February 27, 2004, 11:07:05 AM »
Tom

1.  No.  If you join any club, you need to put in 3 scores, marked and attested by a member.  Even in the very unlikley situation that YOU shot 3 88's, no reasonably sane CONGU trianed member of the human race would assign you an 18 handicap.  More likely, they would look at your swing and general playing ability, and start you off at 24!

2.  Balderdash!  You are fantasizing as to how the system works.  The people how play golf (i.e. "golfers" and not "posers" or "bandits" or "chancers") always play enough medals to keep their handicap in relative equilibrium.  Because the system moves you "up" glacially and down more rapidly, it does have a bias for lower handicaps, particularly for those people who really don''t play much.  However, for those who are active golfers (like you and me and Darren and just about everybody on this DG), the ups and downs balance out at something far closer approaching "ability" than the UGSA system.  If you realy want to talk about "sample size" why oh why are one's last 20 socres, whether they were posted last week or 10 years ago a proper and relevant sample szie.  Ask the guys who do scientific tests on the toxicity of bleach as to how they might draw a "sample" of any population.  I think they'd vote for CONGU vs. USGA, every time.

Tom

I do read your posts, but find it more interesting to respond to them when they are emotional rather than rational.  Just start applying some of that Jesuit logic to your passion and you might find me out of your hair!

THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #79 on: February 27, 2004, 11:23:48 AM »
Rich:

I am being extremely logical and in fact extremely dispassionate, for me.  And why would I want you out of my hair?  At the rare times you lose the expatriate pride and preference for quips at my expense and are willing to try and explain things logically, I find I have a lot to learn from you.  Sadly, this seems to not be one of those times.

In any case, the urge to move to Scotland is more powerful than ever, if I am to get 24 at Aberdour.  I would like to win a few medals, even if they are in the lower flights.

In any case, the sample size remains too small and handicaps thus change too infrequently, and it remains true that CONGU works for guys like us, but would not work for a very large portion of golfers wishing a handicap here in the US.  All your thoughts apply well to Scotland, but not at all here, and you know it... just how many medal rounds did you play the last two years here, my friend?  And you are an avid golfer who at least at one point cared about getting a handicap...

So we've come full circle.  I believe this go-round I have learned a lot - thank you very much to you and Darren and Pete.  Hopefully you guys will see some day how it just plain won't work here for too many people, but I doubt it.  In any case talk about a moot point and mental masturbation... Ths USGA adopting CONGU has as much chance of happening as me actually getting that 24 at Aberdour.

Thanks for the thoughts, anyway!

Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #80 on: February 27, 2004, 11:51:50 AM »
In any case, the urge to move to Scotland is more powerful than ever, if I am to get 24 at Aberdour.  I would like to win a few medals, even if they are in the lower flights.

For what it's worth, Tom, every medal I've ever played in used net scores to determine the main prizes. Some have concurrent gross competitions with separate prizes; I've never played in (or even heard of) a competition over here which used different gross flights structured by handicap.

The other (final?) point I'd make is that Rich probably didn't play in any medals when he lived in San Jose because there weren't any medals for him to play in. That was probably your point, but I do believe that many American country clubs would take to the weekly/monthly medal system quite well if it were ever instituted. I mean, it isn't as though the average American is less competitively-inclined than his British counterpart (if anything, I'd have thought the reverse to be true)...if the USGA were to adopt CONGU tomorrow, I bet there'd be some grumbling at the start, but as the system's virtues became apparent most clubs would take to it with increasing gusto.

Cheers, Darren

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #81 on: February 27, 2004, 12:31:46 PM »
Drop the damn handicaps and play REAL golf.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

ForkaB

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #82 on: February 27, 2004, 12:35:14 PM »
Tom If you really beleive that actual playing ability REALLY changes as rapidly and violently as it can under the USGA system, you are smoking your own exhaust!

Ask Sir Bob Huntley whether or not he was REALLY a 7 when the system gave him that designation a year or two ago.  Do you really think I was a 10.3 index player in 2001 when I religiously posted my scores in California during a period of indifference, incompetence and neglect?  Would you REALLY expect to get 5 shots from me if you were to show up in Aberdour with some laminated card from the NCGA that said you were a 8.9 index?  If so, dream on, but I'm trying to talk about reality, not dreams.

The only time I ever played serious golf in California, it was at a club within a club (Katz GC/Half Monn Bay Men's Gofl Club).  At KGC (changed from The Cathouse by the prudes at NCGA....) we played what was in effct a weekly medal, every Saturday starting at 7am, with 20-40 players.  Strict rules of golf.  Wide range of handicaps (0-24) and backgrounds (all the way from plumbers down to the dregs of corporate boardrooms).  LOTS of betting, and because of this, all putts were holed.  We self-regulated each other.  It worked, was great fun, and I have yet to find a better Saturday game, 15 years later.

Tom, this standard didn't just happen.  It wasn't there when I joined the club(s) in 1984.  It evolved because enough of us thought it was important to play our weekly game of golf under the rules.  As it happened, because of this attitude, all club members could have confidence that outside scores reported by other mmebers were honest.  Etiquette was impeccable.  WE had absolutely NO sandbagging (or vanity) problems in that club.

Don't sell yourself and your club members shot, Tom.  You are NOT slouches.  Just try to introduce the REAL game of golf to your various circles of friends.  You might just be pleasantly surprised by their reaction.

ForkaB

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #83 on: February 27, 2004, 12:48:56 PM »
Jeff

Very well said.

THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #84 on: February 27, 2004, 02:53:45 PM »
Jeff:

Tell that to the two groups of 40 I play in, where there are about 3-4 single digit players in each (inc. me), and the entire rest range from 12-40.  Yeah, they really want to play me and the others at scratch.  Sorry, handicaps do matter.  I wish it weren't so - I'd win a lot!  Get me in a regular group with you two, and whereas I sure wouldn't bet a lot against Jeff, well, no way do I ask for strokes.  I am not the problem... You just have to realize many groups are like this that absolute scratch play is never gonna happen.  Oh how I wish it weren't so...

Rich:

I had no doubt that at one time you had a wonderful club here, with whom you had a great series of medal events.  But from what you told me (or so I thought, in the last few years before you moved, you faced exactly what Darren says above:  the paucity of available truly serious medal events - and that is the only reason I brought that up.  I thought you once told me then you wished you had more... my apologies if that was not true.  In any case, I do believe where you lived you would have had a difficult time finding regular medal games played strictly by the rules, like your group at HMB, which sounds wonderful to me btw.  Oh, there are clubs that do it right, like your old one... but I dare say there are FAR more that do it "wrong", with all sorts of bending of the rules, like one of the ones I am in today. [ASIDE - my other group is much like yours at HMB.]  Add that to the MANY MANY MANY golfers who belong to clubs in name only, just to get a handicap, and never play the few medal events even offered, and hopefully you see the problem here.  As much as you and others can wish it not to be so, medal events are just quite problematic here, on all levels.

But here's the rub:  you are treating me as this pariah against CONGU, this die-hard supporter of GHIN, when the reality is closer to the opposite!  See, as I have become more and more involved in club administration, and NCGA committee work, over the last 5-10 years, I have become more and more dissatisfied with how it all works out.  I WANT CONGU TO WORK HERE!  Can I make the clearer?  And I ask for clarification here not as a defense of GHIN - but in an HONEST ATTEMPT TO TRY AND FIGURE IT OUT, so I CAN do exactly what you say!  That is, evangelize for it, or some adaptation of it, for our groups!  But I honestly can't get past the issues I present, and nothing you have said has helped in that.

Can you explain this to me so that I can get past these issues?  And saying it's good for golf, preaching to me, blah blah blah - that is preaching to the choir!  As I've said about 10 times now, I get that, buy it, believe it....

I just can't get past these very real issues, which keep me from trying to implement it in my clubs:

1. They will freak out at small sample size, and how infrequently their numbers change.  They are conditioned to believe that if they play differently, positive or negative, their handicap number will change.  How do I get them past this, believing that the inflexible number they get based on their very few tournament results is for the best?

There are others, but they can all fall in line if we can get past this one.  The problem is, I don't think they will buy it.  See Rich, they ARE slouches... they are so damn conditioned to their ever-changing numbers allowing them to win events... they are also so damn conditioned to the various bending of the rules they do...

Help me out here.  Understand what I am up against.  It sure as hell isn't easy.

And the problem is, I see these guys as VERY indicative of the average US public course golfer.  If I can't change these guys, how the hell can we expect the average joe to change?

TH
« Last Edit: February 27, 2004, 06:44:48 PM by Tom Huckaby »

THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #85 on: February 27, 2004, 03:25:08 PM »
PS:

In case anyone wants to get into the nitty-gritty of CONGU, as I have, a great website is this:

http://www.handicapmaster.org/handicaps/Unified_Handicapping_System_Contents.php

I must say I have read that through and through, and that too doesn't answer the very real issues I have here... Another huge problem is the guys are gonna absolutely freak that no matter how poorly they do in a medal event, the maximum they will have their handicap go up is 0.1 - they achieve a score over that in their buffer zone, so they get adjusted up 0.1.  That just simply won't fly here... you're telling me it takes 10 poor medal results to go up one freakin' stroke?  Please tell me I am reading this incorrectly (which I very well could be - it is so foreign to me it's tough to sort through).  If this is how it works, wow... Talk about being cemented in forever... Here is your handicap, yours for life.

Guys, I believe in using medal scores for handicap purposes.  You all have sold me there (though in truth I sold myself long ago about the principle - my problem is with the practicality of it).  But the more I study CONGU and its methodology, the more I am entrenched that it will never work here.

We need a happy medium... CONGU principles of using medal scores, but GHIN principles of more rapid movement in handicap.

Look for HUCK-GU soon enough, your perfect handicap system.  All ideas will be considered.  Please submit here, or to tom.huckaby@clorox.com.

 ;D

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #86 on: February 27, 2004, 05:07:28 PM »
Tom, very interesting and informative web site. If I read it correctly, let's say you turn in 3 scores of 81, 85 & 88 on an SSS rated 71 course. Your initial handicap will be 81-71=10 (only the lowest of the 3 scores is used, with each hole limited to no higher than double bogey). If you then shot a 76 in your first monthly medal your new handicap would be [10-(5x.2)]=9.0. If you shot any score higher than 83 you'de now be a 9.1. Here's another  way to look at it: say all 20 of your GHIN scores here in the US are 82 (assuming a CR of 72.0 and slope of 113) you'de be a 10. Now if your next score is a 72 you would be a 9.0 next month (9 differentials of 10 and 1 of 0: 90/10=9). However in CONGU you would drop to an 8: [10-(10x.2)]=8.0. So you can actually go down quicker in CONGU than GHIN, just not rise as fast. Its doesn't seem to be the purgatory of the 12 month low index (with no chance to go up for a year) but certainly avoids the Halmi effect. I also like the way club secretarys are asked to watch out for and adjust any people who are young, layed off (made redundent), unemployed or retire early.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2004, 05:42:21 PM by Pete_L. »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #87 on: February 27, 2004, 05:36:50 PM »
Pete:

I think you read this the same as I do - your examples make sense to me.  So yes, it does a good job of getting the Halmis of the world down to the number they belong... but it does a HORRIBLE job of allowing people to go up.  In a non-trusting, fear of sandbagging world, this is the better way to do it, without a doubt.  I just do have a very hard time with a system in which 10 bad scores in a row would move a guy up one stroke.  Not that I don't think it's necessarily WRONG, mind you... hell in self-interest I love CONGU - it's extremely weighted in favor of lower handicappers - I just would have an exceedingly difficult time selling this to my club members, as you can imagine.

If this is what one is used to, fine.  We're certainly not used to it here... which is really what I've been saying all along... big sigh...

Thus I want to create HUCK-GU, with a happy medium way of doing this.  I haven't fleshed it out yet... but I now have a new quest.

 ;D

peter_p

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #88 on: February 27, 2004, 07:46:17 PM »
Didn't read the whole thread, but why can't we get a club to compute handicaps under both the GHIN and CONGU systems, and test how the systems operate with the same players. That's the only way to compare these apples and oranges.

Scott Seward

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #89 on: February 27, 2004, 07:48:44 PM »
If the Handicap Sysyem is applied EXACTLY as written, it works fine. This means a vigilant, effective handicap chair - a rarity. From an administrator's view point, almost all problems wiuth the system can be solved at the club level - i.e. the clubs have the power. The problem is the clubs do not exercise this power. Almost every complaint on this thread can be addressed at the club level with an effective committee.


THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #90 on: February 27, 2004, 08:35:55 PM »
Peter:

What you suggest is exactly what I am going to try to do... the problem is the basic methodology is so different, it's tough to do both.  But I am going to try, with the two clubs I belong to.


Scott:

Very glad you jumped in here - somewhere way back when in this thread I even mentioned your name!  I also mentioned way up above pretty much exactly what you say - that is, under our GHIN, if the rules and regulations are applied as written, there are few if any issues that can't be solved.  You are so right, unfortunately, that the rules aren't followed and we don't have strong handicap committees/chairs.  So we have lots of problems...  Such is US golf.

CONGU has a lot going for it... but as I've tried to explain several times in this thread, for many reasons I don't think it would work here in the US, at least not as it is written and administered outside the US.  Would you concur?

Nevertheless, one part of CONGU I do like and wish we had was the basic change that only tournament scores count for handicap purposes.  Assuming we could effect such a basic, wholesale change in our golf culture (which is a HUGE assumption, one I also have a big problem with, but let's say if can happen, so as to make this even worth the effort), and get more wholesale participation in such things, this would be a big benefit for us... as explained by Pete L, among others, in this thread.

But the part I don't like is the way they root handicaps toward the low 'capper, making upward change particularly only available at a glacial pace.  I just don't think people would accept that here... thoughts?

This whole thing is intriuging to me - obviously!  Your take on this would be invaluable, if you care to give it.  If you don't want to post here, please email, or we'll talk next time I see you. Thanks!

TH
tom.huckaby@clorox.com

TEPaul

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #91 on: February 27, 2004, 09:27:20 PM »
"Toms (H amd P)
You are being silly.
How do you KNOW that US golfers are so averse to posting scores under the Rule of Golf?  Well, you don't.
Since you don't, why not try it?  Just say that to get a "Tournament" handicap you need to post at least 3 rounds/year, signed and attested to, and that your "T" Hanidcap will be based on those rounds, and ONLY those rounds.
No havee "T" handicap, no playee in USGA or other "elite" competitions."

Rich:

I've never once said I KNOW that so many US Golfers are so averse to playing under the Rules of Golf! But You might have! What I have said over and over again is I'm postive US golfers will very likely not use a handicap system that REQUIRES them to derive their handicaps ONLY through monthly medal tournament rounds! If you'd bother to use that contrary pea brain of yours for about one half a second you just might see that's a huge difference!

Why do I feel positive its highly unlikely that US golfers would not use a handicap system that requires them to derive a handicap only through monthly medal rounds?

Well, Rich, because I'm American, I've been around all kinds of American golfers for decades and I've been with a major American regional golf association and there's absolutely no better way in America to understand how Americans play golf, how they will use a handicap system and how they won't than that. We administer handicaps to app 40,000 golfers and I have a pretty good idea how they look at this issue.

You don't even know what the US handicap system is. How many times do I need to tell you it's not GHIN, it's the USGA's "Handicap System"! They're not the same thing! GHIN is a handicap servive provider (Golf Handicap Information Network). I have no doubt GHIN could spit out CONGU's handicaps just as they do USGA "Handicap Indexes".


TEPaul

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #92 on: February 27, 2004, 09:35:01 PM »
Scott Seward in post #90 has it exactly right! Exactly right. It's not the system---it's the way American golfers, clubs and handicap committees administer the USGA "Handicap System"--or basically fail to. If the USGA gave Americans the CONGU system of requiring them to derive handicaps from medal rounds only they'd abondon that system and go to something that does it like the USGA's system but with less control.

A few of you are starting to propose that if you aren't interested in tournament handicaps to just forget about handicapping altogether and play even. That's the most mindless idea to date!

THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #93 on: February 27, 2004, 09:39:25 PM »
TEP:

WHEW! Thank god you're back.  I've been trying to tell Rich exactly that for quite a few pages now...

But I have decided to punt and just tackle this from the side of what if we could make it happen... even then, the CONGU system has another key weakness that to me makes its adoption very problematic:  the small number of scores that count for handicap, combined with the glacial pace at which handicaps change.  I really think even if we could get US golfers to use only medal scores for handicap, they'd still never accept these weaknesses.

I posted way back a website that explains how CONGU works... check it out if you're interested.

One thing though:  although I do absolutely concur about the impracticality of this, based on our culture, I am persuaded that using medal scores only is the superior way to do this, giving higher quality scores and persuading folks to actually play by the rules... Pete L and Rich explained this well way back also.  Thus my attempts to work this through....

And I've just used GHIN as the acrnoym of choice for our system out of convenience.  It's quicker and easier to type than "USGA handicapping system."

peter_p

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #94 on: February 28, 2004, 12:01:05 AM »
TH-
Maybe your connections with NCGA can get the R&A to make your club an affiliate member and get handicap services. What's an extra computer and tie-in cost anyways.

My experiences with really amateur international competions-
playing two in AU and running one in OR- left me with the impression that neither system provided more accurate handicaps, but that a good committee is paramount.
A stableford 39 at Yarra Yarra resulted in a 3 shot drop in my handicap for the next day's round at Victoria. No questions asked.
 

ForkaB

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #95 on: February 28, 2004, 03:43:39 AM »
TomH and TomP

H gets at the gist of your argument, when you say that

"......they ARE slouches... they are so damn conditioned to their ever-changing numbers allowing them to win events... they are also so damn conditioned to the various bending of the rules they do..."

However, as Pavlov and Skinner have demonstrated, what can be conditioned can be un-conditioned and then re-conditioned (just like classic golf courses, come to think of it!), if you really want to.

If you don't wnat to take the effort ot get the game played as it should be, don't take the effort.  If you do, do.

and, P..I do know what GHIN means and doesn't mean.  I'm sorry if using it a as surrrogate for "the USGA's "Handicap System"", or tUSGA'sHS, for short raises your hackles.

Peace and love

Rich


THuckaby2

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #96 on: February 28, 2004, 10:19:14 AM »
Peter - please remember I'm a lowly course rater peon, just a volunteer committeeman in NCGA.. but that is a hell of a thought.  You also seem to have a fine grasp on this... I've been saying all along that NEITHER system is perfect... we'll see how this goes.  A man wiser than me just told me off-line that what we really need is one world-wide unified system addressing all issues, and I concur.

Rich:

I'm all for making the effort and doing something, that's why I've spent so much time in this thread, and on all the other research I've done off-line. And yes, a lot of the guys in both of my groups, and that I see elsewhere, are slouches conditioned as I say... trying to change them for the better is why this is worth the effort.  You just have to understand that wholesale adoption of CONGU, and all of its methodology, is not going to work here in the US.. which is all I've tried to say all along, which I gather you don't buy.  Have you come to understand the happy medium that we would have a chance to actually work here?  That would be great... and I'd love any ideas on how to evangelize.  But if you're gonna say just adopt CONGU as is with its current methodology, don't bother.  That's cool, btw - I admire your passion for that system and this still has been a very worthwhile exercise, for me anyway.

Thanks.

TH

johnk

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #97 on: February 28, 2004, 12:39:49 PM »

Jesus Marimba!

Can't we just get along and accept the simple fact that
UK golf and American golf are entirely different beasts,
and that the HCP systems both work just fine for the
respective beasts?

johnk

ForkaB

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #98 on: February 28, 2004, 01:02:58 PM »
Yeah, Tom and "they" also said that the US would never adopt the metirc system.  Look what happened there!

I'll retire from this until this subject comes up again in 3-6 months or so, with one final set of words from that old golf course writer, Robert Browning:

"A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?"

TEPaul

Re:Match Play and Handicap Posting...
« Reply #99 on: February 29, 2004, 02:52:48 AM »
The best resolution for handicapping, in my opinion, and something I've proposed for years is for the USGA/R&A to get together with the other 130 or so national unions world-wide (since the R&A has basically nothing to do with handicapping as the USGA does) and propose and agree to a unified handicap "system" world-wide. This wouldn't be that much different in general concept than the USGA/R&A unifying the Rules of Golf in the early 1950s (something that some thought could never happen but of course it did).

I have no idea what that unified handicap "system" would be--probably some amalgamation of the best, most effective and convenient features of those varying "systems" from around the world existing now.

If that were done a handicap service provider such as GHIN which is nothing more than a handicap purveyor could provide handicaps world-wide derived from any agreed upon unified " handicap system".

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