Shivas, you have single-handedly demonstrated the kinds of attitudes SOME men have which keep more women from playing, from playing well, and, as an extension, from posting on GCA.  That attitude is the reason I don't go to the golf course every day.  

It is in the nature of people (both men and women) to enjoy what they are good at and to like to be places they are welcomed and appreciated.  I truly do enjoy going to the golf course.  I like the good ones, for obvious reasons.  I like that bad ones because it's so much fun to poke fun of the tree in front of the bunker and wonder who was thinking what.  But I don't go nearly as often as I want to, because I know there are guys out there with your attitude, and I'd just as soon avoid it.  

I take my son when the driving range is empty and there's no one on the practice greens.  I' go to the worse-redesign-ever-fashioned here in town because that's where the other girls go . . . since they are as uncomfortable as I on the ass-kicking new course right next door . . . because of a few men who have your attitude.

I don't give a shit if men want to curse and throw their clubs around.  I think they look a little ridiculous, and I may chuckle (inwardly or out loud, depending upon how well I know them), but it's not my role to monitor the behavior of other adults.  And most women on the golf course feel that way, in my experience.  If you watch your manners when there are women around, but not other men, well, that's your choice.  Certainly not every man feels the need to do that.  I've heard more, "shit fuck piss" from the Armenian than I care to recall or recount here.  

I guess the problem I have is that as soon as you hear "women" you instantly make judgment calls based upon gender alone, and that's a bummer for those of us who do walk fast and hit straight.  It would be nice if we didn't have to prove first that we are "worthy," against your prejudice.  I would go alone a lot more often (and get better faster) if I didn't feel the prevailing attitude of "the golf course is a man's last bastion."  Being made to feel unwelcome is difficult to ignore.  

And until that attitude changes, you won't see more women playing well or posting on GCA . . . because most of us are not rude enough to force our way in where we are not wanted. At least not often enough to get good.  I lurked here on the board for over a year before I posted anything.  And then was welcomed with such open arms I felt silly for having worried.

In truth, gentlemen, most of you have been welcoming and nothing but kind when you've seen me tagging along with a man.  My experience hasn't been quite so positive when I've been alone, but upon reflection most men I've encountered have been at least polite.  But it doesn't take but one-moaning-groaning-roll-your-eyes-I-have-to-play-with-a-woman   fellow to make me feel nervous the next half dozen times I go out.  

So, back to the original question, how do we get more women on GCA . . . I think if you welcome them they will come.  If you teach them what you know and talk to them about your interest in architecture they will learn and have intelligent things to say.  If you ignore them or disparage them they will not break down your doors.  

Which, if I read you correct, Dave, would be your preference.  

But then again . . . knowing you, I suspect you're just stirring the pot.  

Let me also back up the position of playing with the wives.  Maybe I am a naive young married man, but some of my best times are out on the course with her.  My wife is not good by any accounts (30 hcp) but we walk 18 in 3.5 hours and she follows proper etiquette.  

To all those who laugh at these suggestions that men can enjoy playing with their wives...imagine your honeymoon where you hike two 36 hole days at Banff and Jasper...and then she discusses the architecture with you afterwards (even if some of it is superficial like "I love the glacier lake hole"  ).

That said, the typical male attitude that we get when paired up is tough to swallow at times.  9 times out of 10 we will take easily beat our unknown male playing partners in a fourball, but if they are riding carts it is almost inevitable to for them to scoff our way.  

Pete

Dave,
I do get unhappy when I have to wait.  Just last week we waited while the golfer in front of us . . . playing alone . . . played two balls.  Granted, he went back to one once we started pushing him, and tried to pick up the pace, but we dogged his tail until the waiting became so painful we asked to join him.  At which point he promptly stopped playing the white tees he had been playing, and moved to the blue tees. Groan.  So yeah.  I don't like to wait, but I've waited for many more men than women.  Of course, that's just my experience . . . I think because there are more men than women out there.

As far as women being "bad, generally" goes, I contend that PEOPLE are bad, generally.  You golf in rarefied air, my friend.  You and the people you hang with are single digit handicappers.  Most of the people who play golf are not.  I've met a half dozen men in the last two week who call themselves *golfers,* but none of them were good, and none of them were interested in architecture.  One invited me to play.  At first I declined on the grounds that I didn't know him well enough to hold him up.  His response was that he plays for fun, and didn't care if I was bad.  Turned out he plays a couple times a week . . . and he shot a hundred and twenty-ish.  I had fun, for the record.  But if anyone held anyone up, it wasn't me.  Most men are terrible golfers.  You (and most of the other fellows on here, I suspect) just happen to be fortunate enough to not have to play with them very often.  

If it's women's playing that is the problem (rather than your perceptions about their playing) how do we solve that problem?  Here's a clue.  You will never get better at tennis if you don't ever play.  We will never get better as long as we don't play, and we will never reach our potential (whatever that is) until we are welcome.  It's not a solution, but it's a start.  

*We* are not as good at The Game as *You,* I don't deny it.  (Although I was better than the nice fellow I played with on Wednesday . . . I have never lost a ball, except in water.  And I don't want to talk about that!).  Fortunately for me - and a million other women . . . and men! - so far 30 handicappers have not been banned from The Game.

Dave, I embrace your betterness.  I know how fortunate I am to have met so many good players.  And I could use another golf mentor.  If you're ever in the Vegas area . . . I promise not to hold you up . . .  

...go darva ....and if you are ever east of the mississippi ,i would love to play a round with you [in period attire if you prefer , circa 1690-1860]....in fact ,i am hosting a golf course opening /tournement/re-enactment july third in greenville s.c.
...weather permitting ,i might be wearing a great kilt and pampooties ,using play clubs from the early 1800's.
fireworks and fun in the fort will close the day or start the next...of course you will have to play with fellow GCAers...

....bring the family , you will be honored guests.

  this IS a serious   invitation  
  message me for details.

Shivas:

You may need to take a few weeks off and think about all this some more. It may not be the veneer of the PC phenomenon that you suspect makes most say they don't mind playing with women. Some just don't mind playing with women and  have always felt that way. Believe me, when a group of men get together at a golf club today some of the thngs they say about women golfers is no different than it probably was 100 years ago. Some today just don't mind playing with women as they didn't mind playing with women 100 years ago!

The question was, how do we interest more women in golf course architecture.  The answer is by making golf course architecture of interest to more women.  That can only happen if they play often (which will increase their ability) on courses that are architecturally interesting from the reds.  

I don't have a problem with you voicing your opinion, Shivas.  I think you're sorta cute!  But your opinion seems to be that golf . . . and by extension, golf course architecture and GCA . . . would be better off if the women stayed home.  Fine.  Voice away.  But not everyone agrees with that opinion, whether PC or not.  And it certainly doesn't present an answer to TP's original question, namely, " . . . how do we get more women to post on GCA?".  

The reason you are catching so much flak (at least from me) is that we are working from opposite ends of a problem.  I am trying to present a solution that would -- long term -- create better playing women with an eye for architecture.  You are saying let's not bother.  While your solution IS a solution of sorts, I don't think it's likely that the masses of women who are already playing are going to go away.  It's far more likely that the girls who are being raised on it will continue, and be better players than their mothers.

I say let's make women comfortable.  Let's teach them proper etiquette.  Let's discuss ground contour and bunker schematics with them.  And by the time our sons are grown the women will be better on average than they are now.  Part of that will happen anyway, just because girl's teams are stronger now.  But I say let's get Mom involved, too.  

And to help you get through your miserable day playing with a woman who can't hit out of her shadow, perhaps you can learn to ignore her sex . . . pretend she is someone's son or grandfather.  And enjoy the view . . . whether or not she is part of it.  

Shivas,

I certainly respect your opinion on the matter; just wanted to tell you that there are some men who enjoy playing golf with their wives, even though some cannot believe this could be true.

Tom, Thank you . . . you are a gentleman and a scholar, and I'm sorry we have not met.  I think I just figured out a new answer to your original question.  Forget about golf and golf architecture.  Just show your wife and all her friends Shivas' posts.  That ought to get them interested in GCA enough to muster up a response!  

Here's another story on the attitudes of cartballing young men and how 'fast' they think they are.

It was late afternoon on my home course and I had already played the back nine.  On our long par 5 first, I was about to hit my 2nd shot when two guys came racing down the hill in a cart and approached me.  They asked if they could drop two balls right here and play on through as they had to hurry to get back as their wives wanted them back soon.  Of course, I'm seething inside at their unbelievable gall.  But I calmly told them that if they went back to the tee and started from the beginning, that once I clear the horizon past the first green that they won't even see me the rest of the round.

They relented and went back.  Once I cleared the first green, they never saw me again.  Except where #8 parallels the 2nd half of #5.  I saw them coming off the 5th tee as I walked up #8.  Boy, they were really fast, weren't they?

Notes:

-They were NOT confined to the cart paths
-The 3 long walks on the course are between the first 4 holes, so those were my SLOW holes.
-I played through 2 groups on holes where they hadn't caught up to yet, so they weren't held up by anyone.

Scott

The new USGA/R&A rules have removed all references to "a single player has no standing."

All

I'll play golf with my wife over any man, any day.  Other than that, I'm easy, but if the woman (or man) doesn't have much game, they better have a damn good sense of humo(u)r!

My point is and always has been limited to strangers that you have no connection with.  That is the sole point.  How do you feel when you and your buddy are on the tee at muni and 2 ladies with  plaid lime green bags show up to join you?  If you tell me you aren't cringing, I'm just not believing it!  That's all I've been saying.  

Shivas,

You need to get out of Chicago more. I once showed up by myself at County Sligo - Ireland for an afternoon game. My first partner was a guy from Jersey - standard stuff, and our "partners" were a French lesbian couple. Yes, one was Butch, but the other was 6 feet tall, blond hair, blue eyes and probably a 2-4 handicap with a beautiful swing. The Jersey guy and I (both married w kids) spent the whole time trying to figure out how to convert our partner, thus no swing thoughts and we played great.

I have had some great guy partners from this board and elsewhere, but none as memorable as Frenchie.

PS. Clearly I have been reading too many Tom Paul post, but this did really happen !!

"How do you feel when you and your buddy are on the tee at muni and 2 ladies with  plaid lime green bags show up to join you?  If you tell me you aren't cringing, I'm just not believing it!  That's all I've been saying.  

Jesus Christ Shivas--if that bothers you joins some private golf club that doesn't include the two ladies with plaid lime green bags. Otherwise just pay your muni fee as they did and live with it! What's the matter with you---do you think just because you can play better than they can your money means more to the course than theirs does?