[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

Yes, I believe I could, but then again, I don't think I'm the "representative sample" of the broad spectrum of golfers who tee it up on TOC.

As to Gulph Mills, I've never played it, although, TEPaul did invite me to the mixed member-guest.  He said that I shouldn't be shocked by the attire he would be wearing that day.  I declined the invitation when he indicated that he'd be in heels for the dinner dance that followed.

[ForkaB]

Sorry, Pat

I thought your recent 69 was at GMGC.  Now that I know it was it your home course, I would raise the odds of your being able to shoot 72 from the Ladies Tees at TOC from 10-1 to 40-1.  Of course you could do it (as could I, at even higher odds), but I'd be happy to put my $10 vs. your $.25 for as long as it takes for you to get your money back.....

Rich

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

The 4 under round of 69 was at GCGC which is a par 73.

I played it from the back tees, course rating/slope = 73.6/140

I like the odds, can you form a syndicate to take my action ?

[ForkaB]

I can and will, Pat!  Just tell me when you are showing up at the first tee.

Of course, you may have to bribe the starter or wear a frock to be able to play from the Ladies tees........

Rich

[Patrick_Mucci]

I can and will, Pat!  Just tell me when you are showing up at the first tee.

Of course, you may have to bribe the starter or wear a frock to be able to play from the Ladies tees.......

With all of TEPaul's experience in this area, I'm sure he'll provide me with tips adequate to gain access.

[Mark Pearce]

I can and will, Pat!  Just tell me when you are showing up at the first tee.

Of course, you may have to bribe the starter or wear a frock to be able to play from the Ladies tees........

Rich

About ten years ago my wife was the first woman to play for the Old Fettesians golf society.  The match (against another old school society) was played at 10 a.m. at St George's Hill.  Women were not then allowed on the course before noon.  Lorna had to dress as a man and tuck her hair into her cap.  One of her opponents was the then Captain of the club and he was quite happy to go along with the subterfuge, but insistent that they had to pretend she was, in fact, a man.  Probably easier than Patrick pretending to be a lady, though.

[cary lichtenstein]

Mark:


I guess we all know who wears the pants in your household

Cary

[Mark_Rowlinson]

My brother-in-law, whom I have previously mentioned as having grown up in St A's, returned two years ago for some university function.  He wandered down to the Old Course and casually inquired if there were any spaces.  Yes, there were, but as he was no longer a member of a golf club with an active handicap of 16 or less he would not be able to play.  Four Japanese then teed off.  One missed the ball, one went out of bounds on the right, neither of the others cleared Granny Clark's Wynde.  Clearly they had handicaps of 16 or less.  My brother-in-law treated himself instead to a round of putting on the Himalayas.  

[Mark Pearce]

My brother-in-law, whom I have previously mentioned as having grown up in St A's, returned two years ago for some university function.  He wandered down to the Old Course and casually inquired if there were any spaces.  Yes, there were, but as he was no longer a member of a golf club with an active handicap of 16 or less he would not be able to play.  Four Japanese then teed off.  One missed the ball, one went out of bounds on the right, neither of the others cleared Granny Clark's Wynde.  Clearly they had handicaps of 16 or less.  My brother-in-law treated himself instead to a round of putting on the Himalayas.  

I remember, many (perhaps 14 or 15) years ago, when I was a virtual beginner struggling to play off 19, playing on the Jubilee Course gehind four American visitors.  It was a 6 hour round.  At least two of them lost a ball on each hole.  Not one was capable of hitting a ball 150 yards in a straight line.  As we came off the course we overheard them anticipating their round on the Old Course the following day.  Even then I was astonished.  I struggle to understand how anyone who cannot play golf would want to spend so much money on an experience they could not understand.  Nonetheless I suspect dozens do it every day.  How seriously do the authorities check the handicaps of groups playing the tee times allocated to the corporate golf vacation companies?

[Bryan Izatt]

Mark and Mark,

When I was there a few weeks ago and I waited for several hours to get on, I did observe that they did check handicap cards, even for the groups.  

The handicap limit for men is 24, not 16 though.  I guess 24's must account for the dismal golfers you see out there.  The trouble is, most higher handicaps slice the ball and all the trouble on TOC is on the right.  And high handicappers have trouble with bunkers in general; those at TOC would be much worse for them.

[Darren_Kilfara]

Rich,

The 4 under round of 69 was at GCGC which is a par 73.

I played it from the back tees, course rating/slope = 73.6/140

I like the odds, can you form a syndicate to take my action ?

I'm in for 50 quid, particularly if I can pick a windless day for him to play! In all seriousness, I've played a great many courses in my day, and TOC is one of only two or three courses (of over 6,000 yards, anyway) upon which I've ever broken par for 18 holes. I'd rather fancy Mr. Mucci's chances...if you need a caddie, Patrick, look me up!

Cheers,
Darren

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Nooooo, that is one of the great spots in golf. I think there is a bit of thinking to do as well. Do you play down the left for an angled shot in to a right pin placement? Do you lay back or push it near the burn? Do you play down the right side to play dead into the wind and give oneself a little more green on a left pin placement. Or do you just try and relax and make good contact on one on the greatest stages in golf.

[Lou_Duran]

Bob Huntley,

How you attack me!  What is so unreasonable to want to play any course from tees one finds more suitable and enjoyable?  After extraordinary expense and effort, one gets to plump down a couple hundred pounds to play TOC.  Do you not have the slightest sympathy for that chap who wishes to experience most of the whole course?  I know that it is "their" course and "they" can do whatever.  Likewise, as a foreign consumer, so can we, but isn't it a pity (as you like to say) that we can get so set in our ways where many things become "take it or leave it" propositions?  And since when has par become so important to you anyways?  Geez!

Pat Mucci,

You get to a course once in a lifetime and you are presented with one option- to play it at 1,000+ yards shorter than the tournament reference.  Maybe you are a different animal and not be disappointed.  To suggest that Americans are fixated with tournament yardages is hardly accurate- I play with many longer hitters than me who often refuse to play the back tees, and the negative inuendo you are attaching to it is unfair.  Even at my former club with the tips around 6750 yards, the vast majority of members played from the next two sets up ranging from 6200 to 6400.

At some courses like CPC, it does not make a great deal of difference when one plays the back tees or the next set.  I've only play TOC the one time and the shorter yardage certainly appeared to make a huge difference.  I didn't hit the ball well, was rushed so that I couldn't spend anytime around the greens, lost a good drive from the uptees on 17 which went through the fairway and into the gorse, and still shot an easy 81.  I think that with some additional play, I could beat my handicap from the forward "tourist" tees and hole placements on a regular basis.

Tiger,

We look at the world from very different perspectives.  This appears to also spill over to golf.  TOC has a most high place in golfdom as it should.  Like all other courses, it is not without warts.  There was little I didn't care for in the course itself.  Most if not all the negatives deal with its administration and management.  The older I get, the more I try to avoid hassles and conflicts.  God willing, I will go back to Saint Andrews, perhaps for an extended stay, and will study the course more carefully (though it will probably have to be done sans clubs as I understand the back tees are seldom if ever open to non-club members).

I am happy for you that you can derive so much joy and spiritual uplifting regardless of the conditions you encounter.  Given the reports I hear (mostly on this site) of your recent travels, I envy you.  Life is so much more enjoyable when you can focus on the positives and selectively omit the negatives.  You are one lucky fellow.

Folks, by all means visit and play TOC.  I would go as far to say that this is a higher objective than playing Pebble Beach (even though the latter is in my favorite place in the world).  I guess that I don't really know if mine was a typical experience or not.  Certainly, my perspectives and takes seem to be very different than those of the average GCAer.  I hope you all will love it like Tiger Bernhardt and Tom Huckaby.

[Jim Nugent]

I can and will, Pat!  Just tell me when you are showing up at the first tee.

Of course, you may have to bribe the starter or wear a frock to be able to play from the Ladies tees.......

With all of TEPaul's experience in this area, I'm sure he'll provide me with tips adequate to gain access.

I'd like to see the video tape of this round.  

[SPDB]

Leaving aside the course itself for one second. How can you not fall in love with a place where, notwithstanding all the historical significance of the place and the regal R&A Clubhouse looming in the distance, this sort of view is not altogether uncommon.

[Voytek Wilczak]

Folks, by all means visit and play TOC.  I would go as far to say that this is a higher objective than playing Pebble Beach (even though the latter is in my favorite place in the world).  

To me, comparing Pebble to TOC is like comparing Las Vegas to Florence.

I disliked Pebble quite intensely.

[Sean Leary]

You cannot be serious. Intensely?

You absolutely can compare the two.  Two of the greatest places in golf where you cannot separate the golf course and the place and the history.

[Tim Pitner]

Folks, by all means visit and play TOC.  I would go as far to say that this is a higher objective than playing Pebble Beach (even though the latter is in my favorite place in the world).  

To me, comparing Pebble to TOC is like comparing Las Vegas to Florence.

I disliked Pebble quite intensely.

Surely, this warrants explanation (and I know, don't call you Shirley).

[Voytek Wilczak]

Pebble: I'll repeat what you guys already know. All IMHO.

The inland holes are ho-hum, the houses on the property spoiled much of the experience for me, the whole impression of it was Disneyworld-like. Even the ocean holes, while certainly magnificent scenery-wise, left me cold.

TOC - I was in seventh heaven. It was REAL. It belonged there. It was understated and intriguing. Ballybunion - loved it. Bethpage Black - loved it. Sebonack (walked it) - loved it. Shinny - loved it.

Pebble - you can keep it.

[Tim Pitner]

I'm waiting for Huckaby to write about the mythical day when all the stars aligned, he played Pebble with his father, without any crowds, in under 3 hours, comped (of course).  I don't doubt that it happened, nor that it would be a great experience.  I just don't see the relevance of playing a golf course under circumstances that will never be replicated.

[Bob Jenkins]

Voytek,

I would think that most of us out here cannot fathom how you could "intensely dislike Pebble". Maybe the green fees, maybe the houses, maybe the long rounds and the "yuppy" aspect of someone with too much money thinking it is cool to play Pebble, but the course?

I will never forget the first time I stood on the 7th green and looked around and thought,, WOW, how many people would like to be standing here right now? Then what was even more of a WOW was walking up the 8th and looking over to see the green and the approach shot over to it. Blew me away. Also when you look down 9 and 10 from there. 8, 9 and 10 must be the most memorable and possibly best 3 par 4s in a row.

It is impossible for me to consider someone intensely disliking that tiny corner of the world. We all love TOC, N. Berwick West, Bandon and Pacific etc., more than Pebble for our own reasons but Pebble is an experience everyone who loves this game must experience. Just to see and play those holes alone.

[Sean Walsh]

Speaking as a 20+ handicapper (well I was at the time) who played the old course.  Some higher handicappers can play but are just not as consistent (or can't putt in my case) as others.

For instance in my one and only round.  I lined up at 0530 on a very brisk morning.  5th in line.  At 0705 I was informed I was away at 0710.  By the time I stepped onto the tee I was so stiff and cold I was ready to snap.  I started the round 6, 8, 8, 8.  And by that stage my international crew (a Swede, A Canadian and an American - there's a joke in there somewhere) must have been considering my credentials.  From there on in I had 5 pars, 7 Bogies, another snowman and a Birdie

What I disliked about the experience was being rushed by the marshals on the first 5 holes.  Obviously when you are starting a round as badly as I was the last thing you need are marshals on your tail saying hurry up.  I don't think I had one practice swing in the first 5 holes.  

Also the american amongst us saw fit to while standing on the 7th tee and watching the acrobatics of a RAF jet above point up and say "You know, In Amercia we call that the sound of FREEDOM."  This is my nomination for the most inane comment I have ever heard.  Especially amongst the Iraq War and the fact he was surrounded by people from countries that were against or at least severely divided over the hostilities there.

On the plus side:
Walking the course on the night (A Sunday) before.  I was a wonderful experience to just wander the course. Also this was at a time before I had found this site and thought about golf courses on much more than a superficial level.

I birdied a hole, not an every round occurrence for me.  

Playing into hell because it was blind and I got my yardages wrong. Getting to my ball and realising there wasn't a hope in hell of extricating myself forwards from this pit.  Giving it a go anyway.  Failing heroically (twice).  Taking my medicine and finishing the hole with a smile to accompany my snowman.

The way memories of the last few holes re-emerged due to Open telecasts I had seen.  The sense of de-ja vu playing these holes as I had seen on t.v. and the knowldege that the next time I saw The Open at St Andrews it would hold greater significance to me.

Having an 8 foot putt for bidie on the road hole.  The pin tucked up behind the bunker ( A left handers fade is useful for some things    I then beautifully 3 putted for bogey.  

Seeing the shock on the face of the american's caddie when I slipped him 5pounds for his help to the rest of group.  I now realise that it wasn't the fact I was tipping him but the fact he was actually receiving a tip from one of those tight arse Australians..


Without even thinking of the architecture it was a great experience spent with 3 strangers I enjoyed the company of and 1 I didn't.

On balance I definitely was not underwhelmed.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

This is becoming like a Jaka B look alike. People trashing the best courses on earth. OMG Pebble now. I have real problems with now it is managed. Pebble is a design masterpiece. Please do not reduce GCA to talk radio.

[Bob_Huntley]

I listen to Voytek and wonder where he has played his golf.

With respect, I can well imagine how you feel about the management and employee attitude of the Pebble Beach Company, but to say you are underwhelmed by the course itself speaks of an incomprehensible attitude to the simplicity of the layout.

The smallness of the greens, the contours of greens like the the thirteenth, the target area of the 14th green are all strokes of genius, formed in 1919 and perfected by Chandler Egan a decade later.  

I too wish the houses had retained their Monterey Colonial heritage instead of the monstrous McMansion things that dot the eighteenth fairway, however Pebble is Pebble and one day, I hope you see it as I do, an absolute gem.


Bob

[Voytek Wilczak]

I listen to Voytek and wonder where he has played his golf.

Notables (in no particular order):

Shinnecock, Maidstone, Bethpage State Park Black and Red Courses, Ballybunion Old, Luffness New, Gullane 1, Royal Musselburgh, North Berwick, Muirfield, Turnberry (Ailsa), TOC, Carnoustie, Dalmahoy, Royal County Down, Prestwick. I probably forgot a few. Walked PV a few times. Loved most of these courses.

I think what turned me off Pebble were really the obtrusive houses and some so-so inland holes. Even the name galls me -these are not Links. I guess I allowed these things to irritate me to the degree that I don't appreciate the course.

So be it.

For a couple of Pebble greens fees I can fly to Shannon in the off-season and play Ballybunion Old.

Much better deal.

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