David Snedden:

Lady Astor to Winston;

"Winston, I see you are drunk."

Winston to Lady Astor;

"Nancy, I see you are ugly."

Lady Astor:

"Nevertheless, Winston, you are very drunk again."

Winston;

'Well, at least tomorrow I'll be sober."

Bob Huntley:

I just love your post #70---just love it. Spoken like the true man of REASON that you certainly are. We definitely need more Bob Huntleys over here.

With this in mind, and to incorporate into some form of economic equity the various unequal components in this vast country of ours, I hereby propose that the USGA add on to their slope system a method of rating or sloping clubs to equalize access reciprocity green fees and other access residuals.

In other words, the entire Monterrey Peninsula would have to be rated at 150 or above and it is only logical to assume that the entire state of Indiana must be rated at somewhere below about 25, or whatever it might take to get you to host some Hoosier at a Monterrey course and then actually motivate you enough to travel to his course in Indiana through reciprocity in one of these "home and home" deals.

The system should be called the "Bob Huntley Course Access Reciprocity System", at least until I can figure out some better name that forms some clever acronym.

I love it Bob. You da MAN.

Can't you just see the cook at the Terre Haute CC calling the cook at PVGC to try to weadle the recipe for turtle soup out of him in a blatant attempt to raise the BHCARS slope rating of the up and coming Terre Haute CC?

Darren:

While reading your post I was struck by something that may require another thread (but maybe not because it would probably be too hot or contentious in the end and may just open some kind of Pandorra's Box on here).

That something seems to be that above and beyond (or maybe below and beyond) all these apparent concerns on here about blatant attempts at access and problems relating to it there is some undercurrent of some "us and them" mentality.

By that I mean there seems to be an undercurrent too often that some of these great clubs and courses for some reason make too many guests or those trying to find access feel like their hosts or sponsors or arrangers are somebody and they aren't, like the club itself is some special world that most can't ever be part of or even see. Like a---he's rich and I'm not, or --those people are somebodies and I'm a nobody---like they're socially prominent and I'm just some commoner.

If that does exist, and I'm sure it probably does here and there, it's too bad.

That's not the way it should be, and mostly I know it's not that way, even if too few accessers or guests seem to realize the full extent of how much it really isn't that way.

The thing I think more accessers and guests should understand is that it is something like going into someone's home when they go to their club. But there is one huge difference there. These clubs that people on here belong to aren't their homes, they are only something they share with a rather large membership.

If GMGC was my home or I owned it I would probably invite the entire registration of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com all at once. But it is not my mine, I don't own it and I always need to consider those who belong to it with me.

My point is that any accesser or guests at most any of these clubs would probably do well to just try to act themselves and not something that they aren't or don't want to be and everything will be just fine.

One doesn't need to ask a host to fax him a whole laundry list of the club's culture and rules and regulations if he's concerned about doing something wrong. Merely ask him a question like--"Is there anything in particular I should know?" such as do people tip at your club.

There's no question at all that there are all kinds of cultural and social dynamics and complexities at golf clubs around the world but we, on here, are basically into just golf and more specifically architecture.

If one thinks about it, it's not hard to tell that golf itself---the fundamental essence of the game of golf itself, is one of the most remarkable bonders and levelers known to man, and to a large extent it has always been that way. It may even be pretty unique in that way. I don't know that anyone truly understands all the little and various reasons that is so, they only understand or sense that it is so--because it really is.

For us, these clubs and courses should not ever double as some test of who you are, what your bank account looks like, what your mother or father's name was, where you come from, what school you went to, where you work or anything else of that kind.

We are part of a community with an interest on here. Unfortunately our golf clubs aren't exactly part of that community of interest----they are only to the extent that we, on here, use them that way. And that is probably what everyone on here---host, guest and accesser needs to keep always in mind.

 

I'll tell you one good way to gain access to golf courses and clubs all over the place. Learn how to play great golf.

If one can manage to do that one will not believe what happens regarding access.

Here's a good story in that vein.

Back in the 1988 US Amateur at Merion there was some flashy young very attractive kid from the Northwest who could really play and I think got well into the tournament, maybe even the quarters. He may've been slotted out to stay with one of the members who had the name of one of America's major corporations.

Anyway, it did not escape me that within a week or two following the US Amateur that kid was back at Merion (having been flown back across the country by the member) to partner with him in a Merion member/guest. Did they win it? You're damn straight they did.

If you want access to golf courses all over the place learn to play really great golf first.  

It seems part of the solution being proposed on here is to make the guest "aware" of the etiqiuette before stepping foot on the property.  Sometimes it is just easier to only invite those who you know know the rules.  

Ah the rules some examples from my various clubs.

1. don't bring an electronic device including a blackberry.
2. no "checking of messages
3. don't tip anyone without asking
4. park in the proper spot
5. be on time
6. no "mulligan
7. play quickly
8. no shorts
9. no short shorts
10. collared shirt
11. no smoking
12. no flip flops
13. no hat indoors
14. no hat backwards outdoors
15. no untucked shirts
16. clean up your mess in the locker room


Who would want to deal with someone who would have to be "alerted" to such rules.  Most are just common sense and the result of good breeding.

Now the financial end. hmm

$75 for the first 3 guest rounds on mo,tu,we,th
$100 thereafter
$125 friday and weekend
$200 unacommpanied

cart fees
$$$ caddie fee determined by the quality of performance as walking up 18
halfway house drinks- soft drinks $2 gatorade $2.50 all food no idea untill it comes on a bill

grillroom- lunch you can see on the menu

Perhaps it is just not worth it.

 I was concerned about Michael Moore coming to Rolling Green. After all he is from the backwoods of Maine and the only other Maine guy I have ever seen was that disheveled guy in the U.S.Am . Sure enough Mr. Moore did not disappoint. He had long hair and played persimmons.

I am pretty sure where I got it from, but I don't like 'owing' anybody, anything. An invitation to play somewhere is just like going to someone's house for dinner. You bring something. I don't want to be playing a world-class golf course and be worried about money or anything like that if I am playing golf. If you have had some discussions with someone on here and he invites you to play at his place. I would say find out what he drinks from a friend or the pro and if he doesn't drink, bring a nice bottle of wine for his wife. Beat the guy to the course and take care of matters in the pro shop or simply call the pro after the invitation has been handed out. Find out the green fees and caddies and everything like that. Bring cash, I would recommend having at least $400 in cash on you and when you get to the tee, you are playing their game for their stakes. This way you never worry about a thing.

Glenn, what if you you don't feel suave enough to "take care of matters" as you describe? Or don't have the wherewithal to have at least $400 in cash on you (on top of the other fees and expenditures outlined, I completely forgot about potential gambling rituals)?

Cheers,
Darren

Darren,

I don't know if suave is a part of the situation, but I think it has to be done, regardless. For me, if I can't take care of all that, I would say that I appreciate the offer, but I can't make it. After all, it is only a round of golf. I have had to say look, 'I just can't swing it right now,' for the above reasons before. The guy then says, 'don't worry about it' and I still say that I don't want any part of it. These are my own insecurities, they may not apply, I just shared the way that I do it. I have places to reciprocate because of friends, but I haven't found a club in Cincinnati yet, and I don't look in the mail for my Camargo invitation, I have more details to iron out with reciprocation. I would rather the host just feel like this. Here is a guy that wanted to enjoy my company and play my great golf course, he was thoughtful enough to bring something and take care of all the fees and play my group's game for our stakes. The host shouldn't feel put out at all. The only thing that I read that I wonder about, is the necessity of wearing long pants, I am not sure where I stand on that. If it is the club's rule, obviously, and if it is Merion or something, sure. If you are just playing some club in Ohio, I would think that khaki shorts and a nice short and black socks and shoes are acceptable. Otherwise, you might be the only one in long pants on a 95 degree day, that could 'embarrass' the host as well.

I had not read this thread until now and I now know why Mr. Huckaby sent me a very apologetic note earlier in the day  

Bastard - you're ruining my perfect gentlemanly image.

 

BTW to Geoffrey Walsh and Tim Taylor - of course sincere questions about the best public courses, or privates you can access through reciprocity, regarding any given area, ought to be encouraged.  I mean what is this place if not a information warehouse?  However, it's just gotten comical over the years... Trust me on this - other oldtimers will concur.  In a perfect world no harm is done or taken by these requests; however, just note that I am most definitely not alone in this feeling... unfortunately due to the in the background bad acts by a few bad apples, any information request like this is indeed seen - or at least certainly can be seen - as a request for access, not information.  Me?  I'd rather not run the risk - like REBlanks says.  I wouldn't want to be seen as making an underhanded access request like this.  And please understand I am NOT NOT NOT accusing either of you of doing that - I am just saying how it is, or might be, perceived.  Thus to me it's really not worth the risk.  It's kinda along the lines of "better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."  Thats' not a perfect analogous truism, but it's close.

Hopefully this makes sense.

BTW, shivas is VERY wise re this - I concur with his take 100%.

And Benham, when you least expect it, expect it.
 

I am sure I am going to get flamed for this, but why is it considered improper to discretely review emails on a blackberry while playing golf as long as you don't hold up the game?  I understand why cell phone use is discouraged.  Without a blackberry, I would play a lot fewer rounds of golf.

Is this a generational thing?

Chris - I don't think it's generational at all - I think it's more like everything else in this thread - the actions of some bad apples give a sour taste for one and all.  I have zero doubt YOU can review emails very discreetly, such that no one will ever know you're doing it.  However, some classless folks just whip that thing out while it's their turn to hit, make everyone wait, etc.  It's like taking a phone-call in mid-conversation - just rude.

So of course it CAN be handle properly and with discretion.  But in so doing, you run the risk of being perceived like the bad apples, regardless of how discreet you are.

We've had the same discussion re cell phones... for many, they can't play at all unless they have it with them.  I gather it's this way for you and the Blackberry.  That's understood.  Just do understand the perception risk you take from the other side - none of which is your fault -but it is what it is.

Of course it's also assumed if a club has rules against cell phone or blackberry presence, that is followed, right?

TH

I have a friend who takes his phone everywhere with him...calls have interupted many a good ski day, fishing trip and golf match....typically the call involves some sort of percieved crisis and that tends to ruin his day or piss him off to the point where he can not stop obsessing about it...the reality is, NOTHING short of a family emergency is so important that it can not wait another 3 or 4 hours for his attention...I finally just stopped doing those things with him because he could not understand why I so disliked the practice.

I would put checking email on a Blackberry right up there with this. So you get an email, what are yoou going to do about it, leave the course, start firing emails back and forth?  

If your job is that important that you can't get away from it for a few hours, I suggest you quit playing golf/fishing/skiing or find another job.

Chris/Ryan:

Note Craig's post, which I don't wholly disagree with except I do have a place in my heart for those who can use cellphones or blackberries discreetly - our friend Gib Papazian is a master at it.

Just do note this attitude - it is shared by MANY.  And Craig -again, I am not saying you're wrong at all.

You blackberry users are going to be up against this - that was the point of my previous post.  So use at your own risk...

TH

I am sure I am going to get flamed for this, but why is it considered improper to discretely review emails on a blackberry while playing golf as long as you don't hold up the game?  I understand why cell phone use is discouraged.  Without a blackberry, I would play a lot fewer rounds of golf.

Is this a generational thing?

maybe it is generational...

I don't have one, but if I was someone's guest and was always whipping out my Blackberry might that not be considered rude?