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Lou_Duran

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Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2006, 11:50:23 AM »
"It's not the rules and golfers that are changing.  It's the equipment which has changed and now the playing fields are struggling to change with them or be left behind in terms of utility for all levels of golfer."  Mike Cirba

Huh?

Golfers are not changing?  Maybe someone with more time and computer skills than I have can do a comparison of the Tour's top 50 or 100 money winners by decade going back to the 1930s.  I think that one would find a clear trend toward taller, stronger, and more athletic professionals.  In the 1970s, Tom Weiskopf was considered to be an oddity- a tall guy with a graceful swing capable of being a consistent winner of the Tour.  At the top today, many are tall, well conditioned athletes.  

Add to this the advancements of science relative to technique, psychology, physiology, diet, transportation, communictions, etc., and the guy playing today at the highest levels is a completely different individual than a Bobby Jones or Walter Hagen.

In an effort to keep those classic courses "pure", many which have evolved well beyond the imagination not to say anything about the design intent of the original architect, should we demand that the USGA also put limits on each of the aforementioned areas of advancement?  Or, as Jess II suggests, should the onus be placed where it rightfully belongs: on the owners/members of these hallowed courses.

As to the last sentence, I personally don't see why it is necessary for Merion, Riviera, or any other classic course to change drastically for the sake of appealing to less than 1% of the population (ANGC is an exception).  Certainly you (Mike Cirba) and many of your friends are not being deprived of your enjoyment at these courses because you hit it too long and straight (if that would be the case, you could go to the back tees and balata balls are still available).

Why some of you want to force a remedy to a sickness that afflicts such a small percentage of the population on everyone is beyond the logic of simplicity.  And if you really believe in one man-one vote, the quest to have a single set of rules which would include rolling back the ball and equipment specs to a happier time (when would that be as this has been a heated controversy since feathers gave way to gutta percha then to rubber?) would fall with the same popularty as Hillary Clinton's national health plan.  I for one would welcome such a referendum if it would resolve the issue once and for all.

If I was the world czar of golf, I would proclaim the Red Max of 1971 as the model for tournament golf.  I remember driving down to Fort Lauderdale for spring break with a dozen in my trunk.  I opened up a sleeve a few days after arriving and they were all egg shaped.  Certainly, those balls couldn't be too straight or too long.  

ForkaB

Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #76 on: June 23, 2006, 11:54:42 AM »
My question though, Rich, is why is that necessary? What will it improve?

Jim and Garland and Mike

No smashball=no need to screw up classic courses.  That's enough for me.


Rich,

I didn't know the ball could be blamed for screwing up these courses. I have always assumed it was people, and their false interpretation of how to "protect" their course that have screwed it up. Let's place the blame properly and then have the discussion.

Get a competition ball so "these courses" can be played and enjoyed by both the big boys and us wimps without being disfigured.  That's bifurcation, baby!

Rich

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #77 on: June 23, 2006, 11:59:58 AM »
...(if that would be the case, you could go to the back tees and balata balls are still available).
...
What balata balls are still available? Where can I get them?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #78 on: June 23, 2006, 12:15:38 PM »
GB,

Titleist, Spalding, private label.  Check on eBay, and also you can get number of other sources with a simple internet search ("balata golf balls").  I am sure most ball hawkers have considerable inventories- they are not in real high demand.

But seriously, why do you ask?  The game much too easy for you?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 12:16:19 PM by Lou_Duran »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #79 on: June 23, 2006, 12:39:16 PM »
Titleist has not made balata balls for several years. I am asking about freshly manufactured balls, not duds that have been in storage for years.

I am interested in them to do my own experimenting with respect to distance and workability. I am not Tom Paul. When I ask the USGA questions about these things, they do not answer. I doubt it is useful for me to renew USGA membership.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

ForkaB

Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #80 on: June 23, 2006, 12:53:02 PM »
Don't worry, Garland.  The USGA doesn't listen to Tom Paul either.  They do have one guy whose full-time job is to humor him.  All that guy has to do is sit on one end of a phone for 20-25 minutes, listen to the rant of the day and then say politely, when Tom stops to gather breath:

"Thank you Mr. Paul.  I'll make sure that Mr. Driver gets your message."

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #81 on: June 23, 2006, 12:58:37 PM »
I predict that if the USGA makes a tournament ball, amateur golfers will play it. I know that pro's have tailored equipment, but do you really think that Tiger at your home course with equipment out of the proshop is going to fall to pieces?

Hell, he can probably get Nike forged irons and the One Platinum, so he won't be far from his own gear to begin with - and there's a REASON for that.

There is ONE game of golf. One.

We all play it with what we can, but there's only one game.

A

Of course I don't think Tiger's game will fall apart, any more than I think I would be the no. 1 player if Nike tailored a ball to my (pathetic) game. But that's not the point.

And I, too, think many or most amateurs would adopt the tournament ball. I think that's the unstated goal of most bifurcation advocates.

That's a good point, George - and you're probably right.

I guess what I'm saying is that the natural drive of golfers to be like the pros is what holds the game together, and to try to make an "official" bifurcation, will not work - because golfers won't accept it.

Golfer want to play the "real" game, and tend to look to the pros for the definition of what "real" is. That's why we demand crazy maintenance standards for our home clubs and spend thousands of dollars on equipment (and $50 a dozen on balls!!!)

I don't think official bifurcation will fly - but it may get the ruling bodies around some costly lawsuits from manufacturers, and that may be reason enough to try it.

Adam you seem to be arguing against yourself in the last para. The one thing that will get every manufacturer on the USGA's ass is any attempt to create a two-ball standard. Nike wants to sell the EXACT ball Tiger is using to the great unwashed-that's why they are willing to pay $50 a dozen for them. Otherwise, otherwise you'll buy a Nike Mojo if Tiger's 'tournament' ball is either unavailable or flies 20yds shorter. Manufacturers will accept a roll-back in performance long before a two ball situation.

Anyone who thinks there should and will be a 'tournament' ball for more than an eyeblink is smoking crack-or Patrick Mucci.  ;) ;)

The entire game is built on the perception that the only thing between us and the pros is our abilities and our practice schedules. (Not true, but since when do "facts" matter?)
Next!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #82 on: June 23, 2006, 02:57:34 PM »
Mr. Butler,

Would you care to place a friendly bet that the Tour will not be playing a spec ball in the future that is not mandatory for the rest of us?

George Pazin,

Is baseball in trouble?  I have not been involved in Little League for awhile, but Easton and others were doing quite well.  Golf is different, why?

At courses where most people play, for every good ProV1x found, there are 10 Top-Flites, Noodles, and low-cost Titleist and Nike models.  Even at some well-heeled clubs, the brand new $50/dozen ball is more the exception than the rule.


Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #83 on: June 23, 2006, 03:09:54 PM »
I think it's a bit strange that this thread has morphed into one about the ball and whether pros and amateurs should play the same one.  In the article, Ogilvy was mostly talking about rough and how it eliminates strategy and playability.  Take away the emphasis on rough and people will have to develop more interesting fairway contours, bunkers and greens to make it challenging.  That's where golf becomes fun to me.  

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #84 on: June 23, 2006, 03:15:08 PM »
Tim,

I agree! I tried to point out earlier that those with the bifurcation agenda seem to have missed the point of the article. However, they continued to push their agenda.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #85 on: June 23, 2006, 04:13:02 PM »
Lou -

I'm not sure why you're asking me - I'd welcome bifurcation - but I don't think "golf" is in trouble. I am somewhat concerned about a lot of classic courses, and would be thrilled if they did not follow the current model of stretching and altering, but that's unlikely, hence my desire to see something done.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #86 on: June 23, 2006, 05:49:43 PM »
Richard the Magnificent:

It is a patent waste of your time and everyone else's on here to continue crowing for a "competition" golf ball. That's not going to happen Kimosabe. When are you going to get around to figuring that out? If the USGA/R&A is going to do something with reigning in golf balls it will be the result of these prototype balls the manufacturers have submitted to the USGA on their request. And if that's done it will be done for everyone----eg a Unified Standard of I&B for all golfers. Have you heard of that concept yet? It's only been going on for decades now and the R&A/USGA clearly intend to stick to it. Have you ever heard of their 2002 Joint Statement of Principles? If not it may help if you read it. Since Walter Driver probably wrote it I wouldn't expect it to be changed any time soon. Can you get your mind around that concept or is that too much for you too? Feel free to ask the R&A about it. It would be good thing if you called the R&A and asked them about that. At least your phone call my wake them up from their decades of somnabulance. Make sure when you call them to explain that you're calling about the distance problem and don't forget to explain to them in detail what that is or they might not understand the nature of your call. You may also need to inform them that there is such a thing as the R&A/USGA Joint Statement of Principles and don't forget to tell them that the manufacturers have submitted prototype balls that go 15 and 25 yards less far. The R&A may not be aware of that yet.  ;)

TEPaul

Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #87 on: June 23, 2006, 05:53:01 PM »
Rich:

In all honesty, who do you think has the ability to be more competent with the future of golf---seventeen members from the R&A or seventeen members from Gulph Mills Golf Club? I think it might be something of a toss-up, don't you?  ;)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #88 on: June 23, 2006, 07:39:14 PM »
Rich:

In all honesty, who do you think has the ability to be more competent with the future of golf---seventeen members from the R&A or seventeen members from Gulph Mills Golf Club? I think it might be something of a toss-up, don't you?  ;)

I'm not sure if this comment was supposed to be directed at me, Tom, but I stand by my statements that it should be the club that takes blame for golf course changes that either do not maintain the intentions of the architect, or continue the upward spiral of the costs of golf. Not the USGA for their oversight of I&B regulations in American golf nor the R&A for the rest of the world.

I'm not suggesting the clubs should think they are in control of the future of golf, merely the future of golf at their course. ;)

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #89 on: June 23, 2006, 07:59:12 PM »
"At courses where most people play, for every good ProV1x found, there are 10 Top-Flites, Noodles, and low-cost Titleist and Nike models.  Even at some well-heeled clubs, the brand new $50/dozen ball is more the exception than the rule."


I can vouch for that...and most people hit them about 200 yards...not a serious threat to the "historic integrity" of the original architectural design....
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

ForkaB

Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #90 on: June 24, 2006, 04:50:28 AM »
Rich:

In all honesty, who do you think has the ability to be more competent with the future of golf---seventeen members from the R&A or seventeen members from Gulph Mills Golf Club? I think it might be something of a toss-up, don't you?  ;)

Tom

This is a tough question as I know 30+ members of the R&A and only one member of Gulph Mills.  I do know that the one GMGC member that I know would have trouble cracking the Goodale top 30 (viz a vis "the ability to be more competent with the future of golf" only!) if he were ever to join the R&A. ;)

Rich

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #91 on: June 24, 2006, 06:30:38 AM »
Rich:

In all honesty, who do you think has the ability to be more competent with the future of golf---seventeen members from the R&A or seventeen members from Gulph Mills Golf Club? I think it might be something of a toss-up, don't you?  ;)

I'm not sure if this comment was supposed to be directed at me, Tom, but I stand by my statements that it should be the club that takes blame for golf course changes that either do not maintain the intentions of the architect, or continue the upward spiral of the costs of golf. Not the USGA for their oversight of I&B regulations in American golf nor the R&A for the rest of the world.

I'm not suggesting the clubs should think they are in control of the future of golf, merely the future of golf at their course. ;)

After nearly four pages somebody is making sense.  Still, I don't understand why people care so much about what the pros do.  It really has nothing to do with anybody not paid to play the game.  If y'all don't want to watch the product, turn your tvs off.  Oh yeah, I hate rough.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #92 on: June 24, 2006, 06:53:35 AM »
Rich:

If you know 30 at the R&A who are as you say, my suggestion to you would be that you recommend that seventeen of those thirty replace the seventeen that now serve. ;)

I had the pleasure of meeting most all of them for a number of days. Most interesting to say the least and extremely nice people. The primary topic of conversation was that I tell them what I thought about who they described as "that woman". Not six months later the R&A had split into two separate entities for the first time in their long history. I suppose they feared "that woman" (or some like her) were out to get them too. That was shortly after they had finally decided to join the USGA's COR regs after a years long rift. If one was asked to describe the aura of things it's be hard to pick between worrisome or comical. But what the heck, I'm confident their protecting of the game will bumble along somehow. :)

ForkaB

Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #93 on: June 24, 2006, 07:15:21 AM »
Tom

There are more than 1000 members of the R&A.  You met "most all of them" over a number of days?  Wow, you (and they) must have been exhausted!

Hang in there Buckaroo.  Like those infinite number of monkeys on the infiinte number of typewriters, you will eventually come up with an original thought...... ;)

TEPaul

Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #94 on: June 24, 2006, 07:25:40 AM »
"Bingo!
Of course, that wasn't my Sunday best, just a Thursdaycut of fthe heel.  My Sunday best that day was on the 14th where I drove it into a different zip code than TEP."

MikeC and Rich;

If you two are trying to imply you're long by comparing yourself to me you're definitely not in the right ballpark.

If you're trying to imply that distance is nothing remotely like it used to be, I couldn't agree more.

Don't forget, I officiate all the time these days and I see what's going on. You two are whimps distance-wise compared to most everything I see out there now. For God's Sake, Michele Wie is even hitting it past places Jay Sigel did and twenty years ago he was about as long through the bag as anyone anywhere if he wanted to be.

I know all these courses around here really well from the old days, so how much farther are they generally hitting it off the tee than they used to maybe 15-20 years ago? The guys I played against back then were consistent and these guys today are consistent and the difference off the tee is 40-50 yards, there's no question about it.

And then you see someone like this Long John Hurley from Nebraska. He's occasionally as far past these long knockers today as most of them today are past the guys I used to play against.

On the first hole at Merion in the US Amateur Hurley hit his 3 iron to the exact same yardage Sigel hit his driver in the 1988 US Amateur.

If the R&A/USGA does decide to legislate one of those prototype balls they've called for from all the manufacturers that go 25 yards less far then they will be just about half way back to where they were in 1988.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #95 on: June 24, 2006, 11:00:26 AM »
I've actually played golf with Geoff's dad, who is a member of St. Andrews Beach, and his mom walked along with us that day.  Easy to see where he got his manners from.

We talked about St. Andrews Beach which was just under construction and I said that I don't design courses for Geoff, I design them for members like his dad and then try to add just enough back tees that Geoff will find some testers in there somewhere.

I hope Geoff speaks his mind whenever he feels like it, but it would be silly to put any pressure on him to be the pied piper of golf architecture.  For the next ten years or so his focus should be on winning more major championships, and if it isn't he is cheating himself.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #96 on: June 24, 2006, 11:15:39 AM »
Mr. Butler,

Would you care to place a friendly bet that the Tour will not be playing a spec ball in the future that is not mandatory for the rest of us?


I probably shouldn't bet on what the Finchem Weasel thinks but I'll go for a dozen. The only proviso: I get the real Pro V1s and you get a dozen of the short-cock PGA Tour Balls. Given the context of your wager, this seems eminently fair... So what's the time limit on this bet? Seeing it's such a 'burning' issue, let's say we let a year pass until you send me the ProV's. :)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 07:41:00 PM by Anthony Butler »
Next!

Andrew Thomson

Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #97 on: June 24, 2006, 11:22:07 AM »
Quote
At the top today, many are tall, well conditioned athletes.
Last I looked Phil Mickelson was ranked #2 and had won 2 of the last 3 majors.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #98 on: June 24, 2006, 12:21:15 PM »
G. Pazin,

I asked you because I thought you had stated somewhere that bifurcation would not work for golf and I was interested in learning why.

T. Pitner,

Did you modify your posting?  Or did someone else suggest that some of us have an "agenda" for bifurcation.  Personally, I can live with the status quo.  I do have some symphathy for those who revere the classic courses and times past, and are seeing them substantially modified to be more challenging for a tiny percentage of golfers who very occasionally play there.

I also happen to agree with Geoff Ogilvy regarding rough and the pro game.   From an spectator's perspective, I would much rather see shotmaking than the type of golf played at WFW.

As to his desire for fun, I am not sure that golf at that level is supposed to be what he would like it to be.  I do suspect that he has had tons of fun as a result of his success at the US Open.  Work- the process- is typically not enjoyable.  However, the sense of accomplishment is much more than that.   Mark Frost's "The Grand Slam" provides some great insights from Bobby Jones' grueling tournament experiences which may be relevant here.

Tom Doak's post on how he builds his courses may help to explain why his work is so well received.  Jack Nicklaus has said pretty much of the same thing (designing from the standpoint of where most golfers will be playing the course, then adding some "gorilla" tees more as an afterthought).  The "easy" 66 that J. Fortson shot at Stone Eagle a couple of weeks ago may suggest that Mr. Doak's courses based on this design approach are not good candidates for professional tournament play.

BTW, the context of Mr. Ogilvy's article is precisely about distance.  At the courses he plays, rough is grown in to help protect par.  Furthermore, you would not have the strategy and shotmaking that he terms as fun if the only thing you did was mowed the rough down.  Give Lefty, Tiger, and Vijay short grass 325 - 375 yards out on 100-yard wide fairways, and the arms race will just escalate.

The Masters is probably one of the best examples because in the past, the greens alone provided that resistance to scoring.  But 350 yard drives yielding wedges to the par 4s and mid-irons to the par 5s have pretty much changed that equation irreperably.  Sure, wind and dry conditions can restore some balance, but only God and maybe Al Gore (if he could convince us of the evils of the internal combustion engine and those pesky CO2s) can control these.  Rough and added length are the only realistic means by which the score can be kept in a historical context (and I am not suggesting that this is necessarily important).

Maybe the Tour ought to have 50 yard wide fairways up to 240 yards from the tees and bottleneck them thereafter to 20 - 25 yards.  That way guys like Geoff can joyfully bunt a balata with a persimon to his favorite corner of the fairway and Lefty can swing for the fences.  We couyld then discuss ad naseum the relative merits of brains vs. brawn in professional golf.

A. Butler,

I was thinking something much more nominal than that, say a beer or a diet soda.  My time horizon would be at least five years, though I wouldn't doubt if the Masters may not jump the gun sooner.

A. Thompson,

Is your reference to Lefty a rebuttal to my "At the top today, many are tall, well conditioned athletes" statement?  Check his stats, well over 6' and probably 200+ pounds.  Not to say anything about his carrying the ball 300+ yards, you can't hit his flop shots without superior hand and arm strength.  Body type and conditioning for golf are not the same as for football, basketball and other sports which are attributed a higher level of athleticism.  Lumpy may have been a better rebuttal choice, but compared to the average pro golfer 30 years ago, he probably doesn't fare too badly either.    
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 12:33:36 PM by Lou_Duran »

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ogilvy on the State of Golf
« Reply #99 on: June 24, 2006, 09:47:03 PM »
T. Pitner,

Did you modify your posting?  Or did someone else suggest that some of us have an "agenda" for bifurcation.  Personally, I can live with the status quo.  I do have some symphathy for those who revere the classic courses and times past, and are seeing them substantially modified to be more challenging for a tiny percentage of golfers who very occasionally play there.

I also happen to agree with Geoff Ogilvy regarding rough and the pro game.   From an spectator's perspective, I would much rather see shotmaking than the type of golf played at WFW.

Modify my posting?  The short answer is no, but I haven't a clue what you're talking about.  My take on the article was that Ogilvy was discussing how excessive rough eliminates strategy in golf--for everyone, pros and amateurs alike.  And that such rough makes courses virtually unplayable for amateurs.  I don't care so much about the pro game, although I'd like to see more tournaments played over more interesting courses.  I'm concerned about how the pro game and the courses that are set up for the pros have a trickle down effect on the courses that the rest of us play.  

Who hasn't heard a member of a club brag about how the rough is up at his course, as if that's some sort of badge of honor.  Where does this come from?  I submit that a partial answer is that it comes from a desire to emulate the pros and the courses they play.  The two games are linked.

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