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JohnV

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #75 on: April 20, 2006, 02:21:40 PM »
I mean, whether or not increases in distance are linear over different swing speeds, is there any serious doubt that tournament fields are hitting it much farther than they did 10 years ago, and much, much farther than they did 20 years ago, etc. and that we have reached a crisis point with historic golf courses?

Is that issue in doubt? I ask my question only because, reading between the USGA lines, they seem to imply it is in doubt; that everything is just fine and under control and we shouldn't worry.


I think we all agree that the players are hitting it further than they did 20 years ago.  In just the last 10 years we see that 60 players on the PGA Tour are hitting it 18.6 yards further with the driver while getting 10 years older (see my reply #27).  I hope we can all agree that there are a multitude of changes that are responsible for that, not just the ball.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned much (it was in Vernon's speech) about why the ball goes further today is that off-center hits go much further than they used to go.  This raises the averages for all the players.  Instead of having one drive to 320 and another go 260 when you hit it off center, now they go 320 and 300.  Obviously the averages go up when you raise the bad ones as much as when you increase the good ones.  More forgiveness and higher Moment of Inertias have given us that situation, which is why the USGA has put out the proposal to limit MOI.

The question is, if the USGA rolled back the ball 15% which would be about twice the gain since 1995, would Augusta or other courses where the PGA Tour plays shorten their holes by about some amount?  If not, wouldn't the change be favoring the longer hitters even more (with the exception of a par 5 that was no longer reachable by the long hitters that the short ones can't reach today if there are any).  If so, by how much should they shorten them?  If you shorten by 15%, you are back where you started.  If you go somewhere in between, I believe you still help the long hitter more than the short one.

Certainly it would mean there would be no need to lengthen courses that hadn't already been lengthened, which is a good thing.

This is why I think the USGA is looking at another solution.  The solution I think they are aiming towards is one that would increase the penalty for inaccuracy.  In both their "myths" paper and in Jim Vernon's speech earlier this year a major point is that driving accuracy is not a relevant indicator of success today.  It seems to me that they are going the way of lowering the capability of the players to spin a ball as much.  This could be done by changing the groove specifications and surface treatments on clubs.  If the player couldn't control his ball from the rough, he wouldn't be as inclined to smash it from the tee.

If they lower the ability of the clubs to spin the ball, the manufacturers might start to make higher spinning balls in order for players to generate more spin around the green, returning the ball to the Balata days that Garland and others would like.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2006, 02:22:08 PM »
I don't think it is quite as nefarious as you make it sound. I am under the impression that, even now, the prov1, etc., meet the ODS, and that the old Top Flites/Pinnacles/etc., would exceed the ODS, if hit under optimal conditions - higher swing speed, coupled with optimized launch angle, etc.
George,
Perhaps you might want to rephrase that. Of course the prov1 meets the ODS. Otherwise it would be illegal.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #77 on: April 20, 2006, 02:27:12 PM »
Nobody denies that a ProV1x is different from a wound balata or 80's-vintage surlyn distance ball. Everyone here agrees on that. What we "deny" is that the existence of a ProV1x is in any way "unfair", "unnatural" or not in keeping with the letter and spirit of the Rule of Golf. It's different, heck it's better in every way, there's nothing wrong with better.
To believe what you just wrote, you have to believe that the manufacturers knew that their balls would meet the initial velocity test and the ODS when they submitted them to the USGA, but they did not know that when optimized for driver loft/spin rate/launch angle the balls would well exceed the ODS. I believe they knew, and although they were in keeping with the letter of the Rules of Golf, they were not keeping in spirit with the Rules of Golf.


I think you have a false assumption here.  It isn't that these balls exceed the ODS; they didn't and they don't under USGA testing.  They are still well within the ODS, and there are longer balls than the ProV generation of balls out there for sale.  ALL comply with the ODS.

What they exceed is the distance that balata balls used to travel.  That's all.  But there were ALWAYS balls that did that; pros just didn't use them.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 02:27:32 PM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #78 on: April 20, 2006, 02:32:44 PM »
I mean, whether or not increases in distance are linear over different swing speeds, is there any serious doubt that tournament fields are hitting it much farther than they did 10 years ago, and much, much farther than they did 20 years ago, etc. and that we have reached a crisis point with historic golf courses?

Is that issue in doubt? I ask my question only because, reading between the USGA lines, they seem to imply it is in doubt; that everything is just fine and under control and we shouldn't worry.

If the golf world collectively decides that the modern game is out of whack with the traditional scale of a golf course then two responses are possible.

1) We can decide to change our idea of how big a golf course ought to be and how it relates to the scale of human beings and human habitation.

2) We can decide to change the golf ball in order to scale the modern game back to be more in keeping with the courses as they've been conceived for the past century or so.

As I said earlier in the thread, a lot of the hows and whys of golf balls and clubs are only relevant in as much as they inform the question of how to best accomplish #2 such that it holds for at least a generation or two. We're not going to start back using wooden drivers and elite golfers aren't going to quit getting stronger with better swings. If anything is going to change, I can't for the life of me see it being something other than the golf course or the golf ball.

In that case, I'm inclined to choose changing the ball. I hope such changes would be done modestly, equitably and with some forethought for future developments. I certainly would not be in favor of pretending the issue does not exist for another decade or so. Likewise I would not be in favor of any sort of backward-looking attempt to prescribe wound balls or rubber covers or extremely specific regulation about the construction of the ball. Just specify in what ways we want the ball to act differently than a ProV1 so as to reign in some of the great improvements in distance from the Nineties and Double-Noughts.

Brent,
There is a third possibility, isn't there?  There could be several changes made alone or in combination.  A MINIMUM spin rate off the driver, and/or no lofts above 56 degrees, etc. are two that would might be helpful in making better players CHOOSE not to try to flog, while allowing lesser players to still hit it far enough to enjoy the game.  Groove technology is another possibility.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2006, 02:43:57 PM »

This is why I think the USGA is looking at another solution.  The solution I think they are aiming towards is one that would increase the penalty for inaccuracy.  In both their "myths" paper and in Jim Vernon's speech earlier this year a major point is that driving accuracy is not a relevant indicator of success today.  It seems to me that they are going the way of lowering the capability of the players to spin a ball as much.  This could be done by changing the groove specifications and surface treatments on clubs.  If the player couldn't control his ball from the rough, he wouldn't be as inclined to smash it from the tee.

If they lower the ability of the clubs to spin the ball, the manufacturers might start to make higher spinning balls in order for players to generate more spin around the green, returning the ball to the Balata days that Garland and others would like.

John -

I hope you are right about the USGA's intentions. I have my doubts about what happens next.

If the heart of the issue is finding ways to make people pay for offline drives, it is sorely tempting just to narrow fairways even more and let roughs grow even higher. Which also happen to be tools the USGA already has in its toolbox. Tools they have used often and for years.

And it works. You make fairways really narrow and roughs really high, at some point no one recovers.

Which means they can attack the problem the easy way (see above).

Or attack the problem the hard way by new regulations for balls and equipment.

Call me old and cynical, but I have a prediction about which solution they adopt.

Bob

 

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2006, 02:49:39 PM »
... It appears that the once beautiful balance that existed between power and finesse has been altered, to the game's loss, imho.
Exactly George! This is why I am against the change in spin characteristics. This is why Brent is wrong when he says the new balls are better in every way.


There you guys go making stuff up again...who are the great players today that don't have an equal measure of power and finesse..

Of course I made that up. It is an opinion, mine, which Garland happens to agree with. Some might argue that the game in the past was all about power. I'd disagree with that, but both opinions are in fact made up.

Much like your assertion that the great players of today have an equal measure of power and finesse.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2006, 02:56:46 PM »
The question is, if the USGA rolled back the ball 15% which would be about twice the gain since 1995, would Augusta or other courses where the PGA Tour plays shorten their holes by about some amount?  If not, wouldn't the change be favoring the longer hitters even more (with the exception of a par 5 that was no longer reachable by the long hitters that the short ones can't reach today if there are any).  If so, by how much should they shorten them?  If you shorten by 15%, you are back where you started.  If you go somewhere in between, I believe you still help the long hitter more than the short one.

Certainly it would mean there would be no need to lengthen courses that hadn't already been lengthened, which is a good thing.


John -

I love ya like a brother, but this argument is a non-starter.

If courses have already been lengthened, start playing from middle tees.

Bob
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 03:02:26 PM by BCrosby »

TEPaul

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2006, 03:31:51 PM »
David Moriarty said;

"What I have been saying (and I can only speak for myself) is that some of the newer balls (such as the ProV1x) have benefited the fast swingers more than they benefit the slow swingers, thus creating a enlarged distance gap between fast and slow swingers."

David:

You have continuously said that but you seem to continuously fail to realize or at least appreciate that good players always used a different type of golf ball from the rest which had very much of a deleterious effect on distance for them compared to what everyone else was using. Had good players not used another type of ball all these years but had used the ball that almost all not particularly good players have been using for over 40 years there never would have been this distance spike recently for good players when they switched to the type of ball that everyone else has always used.

So you're looking at a disportionate increase only in relation to the distance good players used to get from the type of ball they used to use and no one else did. In a distance comparison analysis you're comparing apples to oranges.

Now everyone is using the same type of ball distance-wise across the board---now we can compare apples to apples or oranges to oranges for the first time and as the USGA has always said to me and is saying with this article is now that we can compare the same type of golf ball for everyone to swing speeds across the MPH spectrum there IS NO DISPROPORTIONATE INCREASE for high mph golfers vs low mph golfers---that in fact distance production is relatively linear across the swing speed spectrum.

Actually this article shows that as swing speed increases the distance advantage percentage-wise for high mph players begins to decline.

Perhaps you think the only equitable situation was when good players used a golf ball that was DIIFFERENT distance-wise from what everyone else was using and which was deleterious to them distance-wise compared to what everyone else was using.

If you actually do think that then please tell us how in God's name the I&B rules and regs authorities should force good players back to that kind of golf ball (the old high spinning ball). Do you think they should tell all good players that they are not allowed to use balls (that have been legal for decades) that go farther for everyone else?

Furthermore, you certainly have maintained that the ProVx created a disproportionate distance increase that was non linear, and which you seemed to imply was somehow unfair or inequitable to not good players. Non-linear compared to what? To what not good players had been using for years? To what good players used to use?

The point is that today everyone basically uses the same type of golf ball distance-wise, or at least has that opportunity (as in fact they always did have), and as this article explains there is nothing disproportionate or non-linear about it as you have continuously maintained.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 03:39:36 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2006, 03:40:21 PM »
TEPaul,

We are both clear of where we stand on this issue:
  I prefer to evaluate the changes in the game based on what balls were actually good enough for players to use.  
  You prefer to evaluate the changes in the game based on a hypothetical:  How far a past generation might have hit it had the inferior distance balls been good enough to actually use.

No use belaboring the discussion any further.  

This article doesnt really address whether those with fast swings have disproportionately benefited by technology relative to those with slow swings.  

DMoriarty

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2006, 03:43:55 PM »
Tom,  you substantially altered your post while I was replying, above.  

Furthermore, you certainly have maintained that the ProVx created a disproportionate distance increase that was non linear, and which you seemed to imply was somehow unfair or inequitable to not good players. Non-linear compared to what? To what not good players had been using for years? To what good players used to use?

Not so, Tom.  If you have to distort my position in order to refute it, then perhaps you should reconsider your position, as well as my actual position.

TEPaul

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2006, 03:55:54 PM »
"You prefer to evaluate the changes in the game based on a hypothetical:  How far a past generation might have hit it had the inferior distance balls been good enough to actually use."

That is simply not the case. I'm not basing anything I've ever said on any hypothetical. I'm basing it on the REALITY of how things used to be distance-wise and how they are now. I'm basing what I say on the reality and the FACTS of history.

Furthermore, you are confused once again or else you've just incorrectly written one more time what you seem to want to maintain. You virtually wrote the opposite.

How far a past generation would have hit SUPERIOR distance balls (not inferior distance balls as you said) compared to what they used to use IS THE POINT, particularly as that SUPERIOR distance ball was always legal and available to them.

When a pro golfer like Nick Price decided to switch to the kind of ball you seem to label as inferior somehow do you actually think somebody in the USGA or R&A should have told him even though it had been legal for decades that he really wasn't allowed to use that ball because it might go farther than he should hit a golf ball compared to handicap golfers? Apparently you do!  ;)

Your premise is entirely flawed and frankly preposterous but it's the only one you could find since you began to realize how wrong you were in what you were initially maintaining on this subject.

I'm using historical reality and facts and you aren't.

TEPaul

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2006, 04:04:01 PM »
"Not so, Tom.  If you have to distort my position in order to refute it, then perhaps you should reconsider your position, as well as my actual position."

Just another horseshit David Moriarty remark. I didn't alter anything--I merely added to what I'd previously said. Distort your position? Your position was that high mph players got a disportionate distance increase, most specifically with the ProVx.

Believe me it would take a ton of time for you to go back into these archives and alter all the times you've maintained that, and that good players enjoyed a disporportionate distance increase. All I was doing is asking you what you think it was disporportionate compared to. If you think it was disporportionate compared to what they used to use then in my opinion that clearly shows the fallacy of your entire premise on this entire distance subject.

But if you are saying that NOW your position is that there is no disproportionate and non-linear increase with a ProvX for players across the entire swing speed spectrum as I've been telling you the Tech Center has been telling me for months then we are finally on the same page, and the fact is you've changed your positon dramatically to get on that same page.

Or put another way, David Moriarty, do you see anything at all in that article above about the fact that distance is not non-linear in favor of power hitters that is in any way at variance with anything I've ever mentioned to you that the Tech Center has told me on this entire subject?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 04:16:29 PM by TEPaul »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2006, 04:35:14 PM »
... It appears that the once beautiful balance that existed between power and finesse has been altered, to the game's loss, imho.
Exactly George! This is why I am against the change in spin characteristics. This is why Brent is wrong when he says the new balls are better in every way.


There you guys go making stuff up again...who are the great players today that don't have an equal measure of power and finesse..
I didn't make it up. I just read and reported.
E.g.
Deane Beman's take on it: "The modern ball plays better [easier] than the 1.6s ball used to, the one that required less skill. So from a skill level, we've gone backward. Real ball-striking ability that comes with playing unforgiving equipment is going backward. The players aren't as good as they could be if they played less forgiving equipment. And I think it takes away from golf."

Here is his take on fairness (in reference to going back to the spin characteristics of wound balata): "still be possible for somebody who is bigger and stronger to play better" "It just gets rid of the free pass."
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Brent Hutto

Re:Facts and Distance New
« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2006, 04:51:19 PM »
The solution I think they are aiming towards is one that would increase the penalty for inaccuracy.  In both their "myths" paper and in Jim Vernon's speech earlier this year a major point is that driving accuracy is not a relevant indicator of success today.  It seems to me that they are going the way of lowering the capability of the players to spin a ball as much.  This could be done by changing the groove specifications and surface treatments on clubs.  If the player couldn't control his ball from the rough, he wouldn't be as inclined to smash it from the tee.

John, I agree that this is what the war drums in the distance appear to be saying. If it happens, it would be exactly the kind of half-baked, backward-looking old-fogey response that will absolutely bite the USGA in the ass. If they think they're going to set up some chain of indirect causation where they start with the grooves and it will somehow result in the game being played like it was 30 years ago they will quickly relegate themselves to the dustbin of history and deservedly so.

I can agree that a shorter-flying ball would save us all a bunch of trouble by letting course lengths remain near the status quo ante. And if they want to put some sort of spin parameter in the golf ball specification that may be worth doing. But they ain't gonna make Vijay Singh tack his way around a golf course like a latter-day Calvin Peete no matter what they do and if they [expletive deleted] up the equipment and ball rules trying to do it they'll be pissing away decades of leadership just to massage the egos of a bunch of sour old farts who long for the good old days.

[EDIT] Come to think of it, just rewrite the Rules. Make it a two-stroke penalty to land your tee shot more than 40 yards from the center of the fairway. That'll completely take the recovery shot out of the game and make sure everyone from Tiger on down plays the Par 4's with a couple of 5-irons.

Here's my prediction. If they eliminate the lob wedge, eliminate the square grooves and either de-spin or super-spin the ball...Vijay Singh will still flog it. These guys can create clubhead speed like a sonofabitch and it will still make sense to hit it a mile off the tee and then swing out of their shoes at a flop shot from the rough with whatever wedge you let them use.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 09:41:19 AM by Brent Hutto »

ChasLawler

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2006, 05:03:06 PM »

The solution I think they are aiming towards is one that would increase the penalty for inaccuracy.  In both their "myths" paper and in Jim Vernon's speech earlier this year a major point is that driving accuracy is not a relevant indicator of success today.  It seems to me that they are going the way of lowering the capability of the players to spin a ball as much.  This could be done by changing the groove specifications and surface treatments on clubs.  If the player couldn't control his ball from the rough, he wouldn't be as inclined to smash it from the tee.

This solution makes the least sense of all. If I understand it correctly, it would actually require everyone to go out and buy new clubs. It's one thing to throw away a box or two of ProV1's, but tossing your whole set and buying a new set of clubs with updated groove specs is absurd.

I guess they wouldn't get any opposition from the manufacturers.



DMoriarty

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2006, 05:40:42 PM »
TomPaul,

One last time.  My position is that long hitters have disproportionately benefited from balls like the ProV1x, relative to short hitters. I am NOT saying that at above a certain swing speed the ProV1x will produce increasingly larger incrimental distance increases per unit increase in swing speed.  To put it another way, I am not saying that the ProV1x has a distance curve with an increasing slope.   That you don't yet understand the distinction between these two positions speaks volumes for our inability to communicate.  

Look Tom, this has been an interesting thread to read, and I don't want to be a part of ruining it.  Given you and I have covered this ground many times before and given that you can't seem converse with me without resorting to rudeness and profanity, I suggest we refrain from rehashing our reduntant bickering here.  

Thanks, Tom.  Good luck to ya.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #91 on: April 20, 2006, 07:59:17 PM »
David M replacing the Mucci man as TEP's Salieri??  :D

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #92 on: April 20, 2006, 08:46:43 PM »
On a lighter note, the USGA paper references a paper published in the ITEA Journal, which my google search turned up as the International Tuba Euponium Association Journal.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

TEPaul

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #93 on: April 20, 2006, 09:58:12 PM »
"TomPaul,

One last time.  My position is that long hitters have disproportionately benefited from balls like the ProV1x, relative to short hitters. I am NOT saying that at above a certain swing speed the ProV1x will produce increasingly larger incrimental distance increases per unit increase in swing speed.  To put it another way, I am not saying that the ProV1x has a distance curve with an increasing slope.  That you don't yet understand the distinction between these two positions speaks volumes for our inability to communicate.  
Look Tom, this has been an interesting thread to read, and I don't want to be a part of ruining it.  Given you and I have covered this ground many times before and given that you can't seem converse with me without resorting to rudeness and profanity, I suggest we refrain from rehashing our reduntant bickering here.  
Thanks, Tom.  Good luck to ya."

Look David, your positions on this subject are just all over the place and even your recent point on this last post of yours makes no sense.

Don't give me any of your crap AGAIN about me ruining a thread. That, as well as your constant accusation of profanity, rudeness or personal attacks on my part towards you seems to be your constant fall-back position on any discussion when and where your assumptions, premises and conclusions are legitimately called into question.

My position has always been that distance increase across the swing speed spectrum with any USGA/R&A legal (conforming) golf ball has NOT been disproportionate or non-linear regarding the power player vs the non-power player. My position is consistent with the USGA's Tech Center in this regard particularly since that is where I got my information first-hand. If that has also been your position (which of course has been seriously inconsistent) you are the one with a truly startling inability to communicate.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 10:02:27 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #94 on: April 20, 2006, 10:15:17 PM »
"David M replacing the Mucci man as TEP's Salieri??   :)

Jonathan:

Very clever of you. Salleri sure wasn't any Mozart---was he?  ;)

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #95 on: April 21, 2006, 02:59:28 AM »
"TomPaul,

One last time.  My position is that long hitters have disproportionately benefited from balls like the ProV1x, relative to short hitters.

 David, I'm not sure I follow this.  And I've read the many posts on the subject.  Is this not the opposite of what the USGA study shows.  Does their study not show that the ProV1x is actually disproportionately shorter at higher swing speeds?  Can you rephrase your position to make it clearer?


I am NOT saying that at above a certain swing speed the ProV1x will produce increasingly larger incrimental distance increases per unit increase in swing speed.  To put it another way, I am not saying that the ProV1x has a distance curve with an increasing slope.  That you don't yet understand the distinction between these two positions speaks volumes for our inability to communicate.  
Look Tom, this has been an interesting thread to read, and I don't want to be a part of ruining it.  Given you and I have covered this ground many times before and given that you can't seem converse with me without resorting to rudeness and profanity, I suggest we refrain from rehashing our reduntant bickering here.  
Thanks, Tom.  Good luck to ya."

Look David, your positions on this subject are just all over the place and even your recent point on this last post of yours makes no sense.

Don't give me any of your crap AGAIN about me ruining a thread. That, as well as your constant accusation of profanity, rudeness or personal attacks on my part towards you seems to be your constant fall-back position on any discussion when and where your assumptions, premises and conclusions are legitimately called into question.

My position has always been that distance increase across the swing speed spectrum with any USGA/R&A legal (conforming) golf ball has NOT been disproportionate or non-linear    And, just to be fair to both sides in this on-going debate, Tom, I believe the USGA report says that the relationship is non-linear in a small negative way.     regarding the power player vs the non-power player. My position is consistent with the USGA's Tech Center in this regard particularly since that is where I got my information first-hand. If that has also been your position (which of course has been seriously inconsistent) you are the one with a truly startling inability to communicate.  ;)

I find it quite curious that this report is published now after the many discussions on this topic in the last months on this site.  And, after calls by Tom to the Tech Centre.  Should Tom be taking credit for instigating the USGA to publish something on the subject.

Or, for the conspiracy theorists, could it be that Tom wrote the paper and nefariously got the USGA to publish it?  ;)  

TEPaul

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #96 on: April 21, 2006, 07:48:59 AM »
"I find it quite curious that this report is published now after the many discussions on this topic in the last months on this site.  And, after calls by Tom to the Tech Centre.  Should Tom be taking credit for instigating the USGA to publish something on the subject."

Bryan I:

Aahaa! A very interesting suppositon indeed on your part and one on which I believe I'd just prefer to keep my mouth shut.  ;)

However, it is increasingly funny to me to watch this David Moriarty try to weasel his way out of this subject.

And, as far as you not being able to follow what he says, welcome to the club. But even that too shall pass since what he says is nothing much more than his inveterate inability to admit he's wrong. This is in stark contrast to his fellow debater on this subject, Jeff Fortson who offered someone on this thread to eat a pretty healthy portion of crow. That is the type of reasonable contributor we need in these discussions and consequently I will take Jeff Fortson's plate of crow no matter how few his bites of it have been and throw that plate of crow in the trash.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2006, 07:59:24 AM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #97 on: April 21, 2006, 02:45:39 PM »
[David said:]
One last time.  My position is that long hitters have disproportionately benefited from balls like the ProV1x, relative to short hitters.

 David, I'm not sure I follow this.  And I've read the many posts on the subject.  Is this not the opposite of what the USGA study shows.  Does their study not show that the ProV1x is actually disproportionately shorter at higher swing speeds?  Can you rephrase your position to make it clearer?

Bryan, I don’t think the USGA addressed what I have been saying.  What they have done is offer evidence that, for each ball tested, the incremental distance increase declines per unit increase in swing speed.   In other words, the slope of the line slightly flattens as speed increases.  But this conclusion has little or no bearing on whether or not long hitters have disproportionately benefited from technology, relative to short hitters.  As opposed to reinventing the wheel, I’ll draw on heavily on a few of my older posts explaining the distinction, including post #24 in this thread and a post from a few months ago, when TEPaul first reported that the USGA told him that the distance progression for each ball was largely linear. . . .

In the article, the USGA charts the distance each ball travels when hit by a driver through a range of swing speeds.   But when driving the golf ball, players are pretty much locked into their maximum effective swing speed, at least at given time--  No one can simply decide to just swing faster than they are capable of swinging!   So while the USGA draws conclusions based on looking how a single ball performs over a series of swing speeds,  I am taking it a step further--  how does each ball relatively benefit different golfers with different swing speeds?

I have repeatedly proposed that some of the newer balls (such as the ProV1x) have benefited the fast swingers more than they have benefited the slow swingers, thus creating a enlarged distance gap between fast and slow swingers.  This has absolutely nothing to do with whether the slopes of these balls’ distance curves diminish, increase, or remain constant,  but has everything to do with comparing the different distance characteristics (slopes) of different balls.  

Let me put it this way.  Say we have a fast swing golfer (say 130 mph) and a slow swing golfer (say 70 mph) who both switch to the ProV1x from the ProV1 (or even from some low-priced "distance" ball.)  I think that the 130 mph golfer will benefit much more from the switch than the 70 mph golfer.    By merely demonstrating that the slope of these balls’ distance curves flatten as speed increases says nothing about whether two different golf balls have different slopes and values across a range of distances.

Here is a chart I made long ago, not as evidence of any particular ball's performance, but to graphically demonstrate the point I am trying to make.    I use TWO HYPOTHETICAL BALLS, one ball’s distance increases 9 yards per 5 mph increase in swing speed, the other ball’s distance increases 11 yards per 5 yd increase in swing speed.  Rather than redoing my chart, and because it is irrelevant to my point, I’ll ask you to assume that these slopes are actually decreasing slightly over time at approximately the same rate (so my chart would still look like an X but with the lines both bending down at approx the same rate.)


Note that the second ball greatly benefits the faster swing golfer and actually hurts the slower swing golfer, relative to the first ball.  Note also that while this is a hypothetical, it demonstrates that my premise  (some balls provide greater distance benefits to fast swing golfers while not helping golfers with slow swing speeds) does NOT depend upon the slope of any ball's distance curve increasing.

Think of our conversations regarding the ProV1x.   My theory is that while the ProV1x greatly benefited those with fast swing speeds, it would not similarly benefit those with slower swing speeds.  

I hope this clears it up for you.  
« Last Edit: April 21, 2006, 03:01:50 PM by DMoriarty »

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #98 on: April 21, 2006, 04:34:24 PM »
[David said:]
One last time.  My position is that long hitters have disproportionately benefited from balls like the ProV1x, relative to short hitters.

 David, I'm not sure I follow this.  And I've read the many posts on the subject.  Is this not the opposite of what the USGA study shows.  Does their study not show that the ProV1x is actually disproportionately shorter at higher swing speeds?  Can you rephrase your position to make it clearer?

Bryan, I don’t think the USGA addressed what I have been saying.  What they have done is offer evidence that, for each ball tested, the incremental distance increase declines per unit increase in swing speed.   In other words, the slope of the line slightly flattens as speed increases.  But this conclusion has little or no bearing on whether or not long hitters have disproportionately benefited from technology, relative to short hitters.  As opposed to reinventing the wheel, I’ll draw on heavily on a few of my older posts explaining the distinction, including post #24 in this thread and a post from a few months ago, when TEPaul first reported that the USGA told him that the distance progression for each ball was largely linear. . . .

In the article, the USGA charts the distance each ball travels when hit by a driver through a range of swing speeds.   But when driving the golf ball, players are pretty much locked into their maximum effective swing speed, at least at given time--  No one can simply decide to just swing faster than they are capable of swinging!     I agree that each individual has a maximum effective swing speed, but I'm not sure I understand how this point relates to your general hypothesis?    So while the USGA draws conclusions based on looking how a single ball performs over a series of swing speeds,  I am taking it a step further--  how does each ball relatively benefit different golfers with different swing speeds?    I don't understand this point.  Are you saying that a given swing speed produces different results depending on the player?  To me any player who swings at the speeds tested by the USGA will achieve the same results with the same ball, the same club, and the same launch conditions.

I have repeatedly proposed that some of the newer balls (such as the ProV1x) have benefited the fast swingers more than they have benefited the slow swingers, thus creating a enlarged distance gap between fast and slow swingers.  This has absolutely nothing to do with whether the slopes of these balls’ distance curves diminish, increase, or remain constant,  but has everything to do with comparing the different distance characteristics (slopes) of different balls.

Let me put it this way.  Say we have a fast swing golfer (say 130 mph) and a slow swing golfer (say 70 mph) who both switch to the ProV1x from the ProV1 (or even from some low-priced "distance" ball.)    Can we just pick one option, for discussion purposes.  Let's say changing from the ProV1 to the ProV1x.  I think that the 130 mph golfer will benefit much more from the switch than the 70 mph golfer.    Could  you quantify a range of what you think "much more" is.  5 yards? 10? 15?    By merely demonstrating that the slope of these balls’ distance curves flatten as speed increases says nothing about whether two different golf balls have different slopes and values across a range of distances.

Here is a chart I made long ago, not as evidence of any particular ball's performance, but to graphically demonstrate the point I am trying to make.    I use TWO HYPOTHETICAL BALLS, one ball’s distance increases 9 yards per 5 mph increase in swing speed, the other ball’s distance increases 11 yards per 5 yd increase in swing speed.  Rather than redoing my chart, and because it is irrelevant to my point, I’ll ask you to assume that these slopes are actually decreasing slightly over time at approximately the same rate (so my chart would still look like an X but with the lines both bending down at approx the same rate.)


Note that the second ball greatly benefits the faster swing golfer and actually hurts the slower swing golfer, relative to the first ball.  Note also that while this is a hypothetical, it demonstrates that my premise  (some balls provide greater distance benefits to fast swing golfers while not helping golfers with slow swing speeds) does NOT depend upon the slope of any ball's distance curve increasing.

In looking at your chart based on hypothetical balls, if we picked an 85 mph swing speed (a slow weekend warrior speed), that player would loose 10 yards going from hypothetically the V1 to the V1x, whereas a 125 mph swinger (near the top end of the Tour range) would gain about 6 yards.  In the real world, of course, the slow speed swinger wouldn't make the change and lose the 10 yards.  So the high speed swinger gains maybe 6 yards, and probably less since the curves flatten out marginally according to the USGA paper.  My point is that this doesn't seem like a disproprtionately large benefit.

My second point is that the 5 balls the USGA tested (supposedly tour balls) do not exhibit this crossing of slopes that you have hypothesized.



I believe that one of these balls is the V1x, and another is the V1.  They don't cross as per your hypothetical chart with hypothetical balls.  Are you hypothesizing that the Tour Balata had a curve that would cross somewhere in the spectrum of speeds and was substantially flatter than these 5 balls.  That is probably an unanswerable question.  

By the way, perhaps we should send Tom in pursuit of the Tech Centre again to find out which ball is ball B and which is ball D.  It seems to be uniformly 10 yards longer across the swing speed spectrum.  This is a substantially greater difference compared to those in your hypothetical chart.  Somebody have figured out better aerodynamics.  Those of us who don't get paid to play a ball, and who haven't overpowered our current home courses want to know.


Think of our conversations regarding the ProV1x.   My theory is that while the ProV1x greatly benefited those with fast swing speeds, it would not similarly benefit those with slower swing speeds.  

I hope this clears it up for you.  



john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #99 on: April 21, 2006, 05:35:56 PM »
The USGA is really missing the point in all this.

 :) Meanwhile, back at the ranch, while Biff and Buffy are in the Distant Hills office preparing graphs and charts,  this comes from the thread 'TPC Scottsdale Desert...'.  There is a quote from the East Valley Tribune article, by Bill Huffman,   :)

" Bill Grove, the TPC’s general manager, said the Desert Course, at 6,390 yards, is now perceived more as an “executive experience,’’ and due to price erosion at other high-end facilities has lost its position in the local market.

6390 yards, an executive experience ?  Really. It's too short.  Why is that ?  Why ?    Is distance a part of the issue.  

So the city will spend (if approved) about $8 million on the golf course.

The USGA is preparing all these graphs and charts, and the TPC is wanting to build them longer and longer.