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Mark Arata

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Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #75 on: April 11, 2006, 04:34:16 PM »
And David is (was) actually considered a friend, I cant imagine what the rest of this group is saying......Ouch :'(
New Orleans, proud to swim home...........

Mike Hendren

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Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #76 on: April 11, 2006, 06:04:34 PM »
This is the most amusing thread I've ever read on this site.  Than again, I'm easily amused.

For reference, Danny Green won a sizeable bet by shoot 80-80 in the first two rounds of the 1990 Masters.  He was participating in his first Masters as the U. S. Amateur runner-up and bet he could shoot 160.  (This on the heels of a highly lucrative stop-over at a Chattanooga club on the drive down - but that's another story).  

I realize that was under tournament conditions, but it must be said that Green was at the time one of the great clutch putters in the game.  He was not long by any standards and I saw him hit a fairway wood at the 4th.

Anybody on this site that thinks they can break 80 from the back better be a wizzard with the flat stick - I'm talking tour-quality wizzardry.  Gimme is an oxymoron on those greens.  

You guys beat all.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom Huckaby

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #77 on: April 11, 2006, 06:06:56 PM »
Bogey:

Did anyone here make any bold score predictions re playing the back tees?  I didn't read any... I myself made it very clear I'd be quite pleased to get in in double digits, and wouldn't bet on myself accomplishing that.

This doesn't mean I wouldn't want to give it a try!

TH
« Last Edit: April 11, 2006, 06:07:25 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #78 on: April 11, 2006, 07:55:03 PM »
Tom Huckaby,

Then go back and reread ALL of the posts on this subject.

One fellow claimed that he would break 80 and break par if the greens weren't so firm and fast.

I'll take the over under on the par bet.

And, it's not just about the greens, ANGC is alot more than just greens.

And, I think one's decision as to which tees to play might be determined by their success or failure on the practice tee.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2006, 07:59:26 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Brock Peyer

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Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #79 on: April 11, 2006, 08:44:35 PM »
I would play whatever tees that they would let me, I really don't care.  The yardages for the Masters and the Member tees are both not in my comfort zone but it wouldn't matter.  I will let you know once I have played it.

Doug Siebert

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Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #80 on: April 11, 2006, 11:07:47 PM »
Isn't this moot?

I thought they didn't LET guests play the Masters' tees.


Kind of irrelevant, isn't it?  They don't let slobs like you and play there, so if we are assuming one extremely unlikely event, might as well assume a second one ;)


As an example, # 18, dogleg right, up hill, 460 yards, narrow chute off the tee, awkward lie in the fairway is so beyond your ability and everyone elses ability that I have to ask, why would you want to play at ANGC and NOT enjoy yourself.


OK, let's say you are right, and I play 18 from the tips and end up with that awkward lie that is beyond my ability and I totally screw up the shot and foozle it about 60 yards.  Well, then I'm probably playing from where my tee shot from the member tees would have gone anyway, so what is really the difference other than one more stroke on the card?  If I got to play ANGC it'd be about the challenge of the shots, seeing what of those "awkward lies beyond my ability" that I can handle, not trying to have a low number to write on a scorecard.  If I shoot 100, I shoot 100, I had the crap beat out of me playing Prestwick in 2001 and shot 102, and had just as much fun as shooting 76 the day before at Turnberry, and 76 the day after at North Berwick.

And on the other hand, playing the Masters tees would undoubtedly lead to me having better shots in some cases than playing off the member tees, especially with all the big doglegs that require working the ball.  I'm 10x better at hitting balls way above my feet or off severe uphill and downhill lies than I am trying to play a controlled draw/hook on demand with my driver, that's for damn sure!
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #81 on: April 11, 2006, 11:23:52 PM »
I'd play the Masters tees - I don't care what I shoot.  Its an opportunity for a meaningful comparison of where my game stands relative to the professionals.  Playing from 60+ yards forward on every hole just wouldn't be the same.

I want to play the course the Masters contestants play - isn't that  why so many golfers the world over want to play at Augusta National?  Its about attempting the same shots - regardless of whether they have the ability to play them successfully.

ANGC is one of the few courses where I'd choose to play from the tips - as a general rule I don't have the length to manage over 6400m.  Thats why I don't play from the tips at long courses.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #82 on: April 11, 2006, 11:43:26 PM »
Patrick:

Re me reading every post, I'd say something about the pot and the kettle black, but that would be far too trite. Bogey made it sound like all of us were boasting we could kick Augusta's butt, when obviously that's far from the case.

I'll take the over on that bet also, thank you very much.

And of course Augusta is way more than the greens...

As for tee decisions being made based on how one's warmup is going, hell that works for me.  I could hit balls till my hands bled and never be truly ready to play those back tees though.  Of course in your world that means I shouldn't play them; in mine fun achieved during a golf round isn't based on making some number.

But we've been round and round about THAT before, haven't we?  I should have known we'd fall on opposite sides of something so Quixotic as the issue in this thread.

 ;)

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #83 on: April 12, 2006, 02:01:47 AM »
Tom Huckaby,

Then go back and reread ALL of the posts on this subject.

One fellow claimed that he would break 80 and break par if the greens weren't so firm and fast.

I'll take the over under on the par bet.

And, it's not just about the greens, ANGC is alot more than just greens.

And, I think one's decision as to which tees to play might be determined by their success or failure on the practice tee.

Patrick,

I could shoot in the 70's at Augusta under Masters conditions. Without a doubt. I could also shoot 86.

The only "proof" I have is that I know and have played with and against some of the amateurs that have played at the Masters, and while they are all slightly better than I as players, they are only better over three or four rounds. NOT over one round. I have beaten both Greg Puga and Tim Hogarth head-to-head on a single round basis and also over a 54 hole tournament, and both of them have shot in the 70's at the Masters.

Puga won the 2001 U.S. Mid-Amateur, and Hogarth the 1997 U.S. Pub Links. I have also played golf with many, many professionals over the years and know how my game compares to theirs, which is to say I know they are better than I am and harbor not delusions about my game.

Most people don't understand how slim the margin of difference is between middle of the road PGA Tour professionals and top amateurs. I'm not talking about your average "good" or "very good" club player who plays to scratch or 1, I'm talking about amateurs who play as +3's and +4's. The difference between those guys and the pros is very, very small, unless we're talking about the top 20 or 30 guys on the PGA Tour. Everything is LEVELS in golf, just like in any other sport. In baseball, the hierarchy is as follows:

College Studs/Rookie Ball Pros
College Super Studs or A Pros
College Superduper Studs or AA Pros
AAA Pros
Major League back-ups
Major League Regulars
Major Leage All Stars

In golf it's something like this:

College Stud or Mini Tour pro or Top Regional Amateur
College Super Stud or Mini Tour Stud or National Amateur
College Superduper Stud or Nationwide Tour member or European Tour Regular
Nationwide Tour Top 20 European Tour Top 40 PGA Tour bottom 40
PGA Tour Middle 80
PGA Tour Top 20


For the most part, it's a matter of consistency or sometimes it's a matter of one glaring weakness that a top amateur might have, whereas most legitimate professionals have NO real weaknesses. But understand that the differences from one level to the next are very, very small.

If you don't believe what I'm saying is true, I don't know what to tell you. I've played enough golf with professionals over the years to KNOW that what I'm saying is true. I'm not guessing and I'm not hypothesizing.

As for the guy who doubts that I could break par at Augusta when the greens are rolling at a reasonable speed: All I know is that I have spoken to many, many top ams and pros who have played Augusta when it's playing "normal" (i.e. NOT Masters-ready), and they all say the same thing: The course is simply not that difficult (this was before the lengthening). They say you'd shoot at Augusta what you'd shoot at any reasonable course of about the same length -- when the greens are reasonable speed and not rock hard.

And by the way, I never said "I WOULD break 80 and WOULD break par." I said I COULD break 80 and COULD break par. There is a big difference in those two statements. I would never make the former, and the latter is an almost mathematical certainty considering my handicap.

I could go on and on about this subject forever, but I won't. However, one thing I will do is start letting you guys know of any rounds I play with Tom Pernice, Jr., who I expect to be playing with quite a bit in the near future.

One last thing: If any of you doubt how slim a margin separates top amateurs from legitimate professionals, simply read the section in Bob Rotella's book "Golf is Not a Game of Perfect," where he and Tom Kite talk to a couple University of Texas golfers struggling to make the golf team.

Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #84 on: April 12, 2006, 02:17:34 AM »
College Stud or Mini Tour pro or Top Regional Amateur
College Super Stud or Mini Tour Stud or National Amateur
College Superduper Stud or Nationwide Tour member or European Tour Regular
Nationwide Tour Top 20 European Tour Top 40 PGA Tour bottom 40
PGA Tour Middle 80
PGA Tour Top 20

Not to hijack the thread or anything, but you really seem to be selling the European Tour short...thinking like this helps lead to America's downfall in the Ryder Cup every year!
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 02:17:57 AM by Darren_Kilfara »

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #85 on: April 12, 2006, 03:06:04 AM »
You're actually right. I short-changed the Euro Tour big time, but it was only because I added it as an afterthought since I was mainly concerned with U.S. golf.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #86 on: April 12, 2006, 06:24:53 AM »
David Ober,

All of your references and perspectives are in the context of when the golf course was much, much shorter, and not when it was at its currrent length.

The best players in the world, playing their best games can't break par, but, you can [size=4x] ? [/size]

I'll give you odds on the over-under on the par bet.

Doug Siebert,

What makes you think that your topped shot is going to get  you to the corner with even a look at the green from 200 + ?

What makes you think that you won't push or pull your tee shot into the woods on that narrow chute 100 yards off the tee.

Reality is a lot different from fantasy.

Mike Tyson got it right when he said, " Everybody has a game plan, until they get HIT."
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 06:26:40 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Glenn Spencer

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #87 on: April 12, 2006, 08:14:45 AM »
If the man's friends watch him play golf in 98 and tell him he could play the golf course at that time, then I am sure that he would be able to now. For the love of God, someone tell me what is so long about the place. 11? 1? 18? it sure as hell isn't any of the other holes. 5? 455, oh, real monster there. the par 3's are short sans 4, the par5's are reachable or 3-shotters under 600. We are not even talking about a long golf course. Long, was 7150 back in 1990, not 7445 in 2006. I think that if I went out there and you gave me a 300 yard drive right where I wanted it on every hole, I could still shoot a thousand, why the hell would I play the front tees? 7445 yards par 72 does not seem long to me. the US Open golf courses 7360 par 70 seem long. If I am not allowed to play Augusta from the back, well it is because of my short game, not because the place is too long.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 08:50:13 AM by Glenn Spencer »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #88 on: April 12, 2006, 08:30:35 AM »
Glenn Spencer,

Perhaps some missed the part about the width of the fairways, like # 11 at 26 yards with trees right and woods left.

So, it's not just the added length, it's the narrowing of the holes, like # 7, # 11, # 14, and # 17, and the addition of rough.  Long is one thing, long AND narrow is another.

The golf course today is substantively different from the golf course in 1998.

If some of the best players in the world, PGA Tour Pros aren't breaking 80, why does anyone think an amateur will break par ?

Glenn Spencer

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #89 on: April 12, 2006, 08:48:11 AM »
Patrick,

Who said that an amateur would break par? Is this how we are supposed to figure out what tees we are supposed to play, breaking par? Before reading David's comments, I did not think that I could break an egg out there and I probably couldn't, but I just can't say that it is because of length.  After seeing what David had to say, I think about some of the truly hard golfing experiences on tough golf courses and while I may not have shot 65, I have never, ever, ever felt like saying the the golf course was too hard. Why would I ever want to play a golfing shrine from 6100 yards? Patrick, in your opinion, what would a scratch player shoot from the Masters tees on April 16-19th? 4 rounds.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 08:55:31 AM by Glenn Spencer »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #90 on: April 12, 2006, 09:33:02 AM »
The U. S. Amateur champion, the runner-up, the British Amateur champion, the Mid-Amateur champ and the Public Links champ averaged 79.1 for the first two rounds.

Does the fact that several on this site don't believe 6350 (not sure where everyone is coming up with the 6,100 no.) yards is enough golf course for them expose the hypocracy prevalent on this site?

Better add a  ;) since I'm just having a little fun.

Mike

BTW, read the Ray Ramono article in Golf Digest about his insistence that he play the Masters tee.  He comes off as a complete moron.  

 
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 09:37:39 AM by Bogey_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

John Goodman

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #91 on: April 12, 2006, 09:43:19 AM »
Ixnay on the ormonmay, Bogey.  That will get you in a lot of trouble around here . . .

Jim Nugent

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #92 on: April 12, 2006, 09:43:21 AM »
Give David Ober enough rounds, and he will shoot under par at ANGC in Masters conditions.  Course conditions, that is.  Put him in the Masters itself, and he will probably suffer the fate of the friend Patrick told us about or worse.  

This is a bet we will not be able to arrange, I think, but I would be happy to place almost any amount of money on that if we could.  

Jim Nugent

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #93 on: April 12, 2006, 09:52:37 AM »
The U. S. Amateur champion, the runner-up, the British Amateur champion, the Mid-Amateur champ and the Public Links champ averaged 79.1 for the first two rounds.

Does the fact that several on this site don't believe 6350 (not sure where everyone is coming up with the 6,100 no.) yards is enough golf course for them expose the hypocracy prevalent on this site?

Better add a  ;) since I'm just having a little fun.

Mike
 

And Venturi shot 66 in 1956 and nearly ended up winning.  And Ryan Moore in 2005 finished in the top 16.  

Citing what happened in one tournament does not really show much.  Besides, that is the tournament itself.  Do you really think those guys could not shoot under par there ever?

One of California's top mid amateurs cannot shoot under par at Augusta ever?    

Tom Huckaby

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #94 on: April 12, 2006, 09:57:54 AM »
Does the fact that several on this site don't believe 6350 (not sure where everyone is coming up with the 6,100 no.) yards is enough golf course for them expose the hypocracy prevalent on this site?

Just to set the record straight:  at least for me, saying I want to TRY the Masters tees absolutely does NOT mean the members tees aren't enough golf course for me.  I'd have a blast at those and I damn sure wouldn't expect to come close to my handicap from those tees either.  I just would want to give the tips one try, for all the reasons I've stated.

And I too have many  ;D ;D ;D re this topic.

TH
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 09:58:39 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #95 on: April 12, 2006, 10:12:10 AM »
One of California's top mid amateurs cannot shoot under par at Augusta ever?    

Jim, never say never.

Not sure about California mid-amateurs but two Tennesseans have won the USGA Mid-Amateur:  Danny Green (1999) and Tim Jackson (1994, 2001).  Notwithstanding their advancing ages (late 40's) they are currently co-ranked 20th by Golfweek.  I might be mistaken but I don't see anybody on this site in the top 261.  

Green shot 73,76 in the 2000 Masters, missing the cut by a single shot.  Jackson shot 79,76 in the 1995 Masters and 76,78 in the 2001 toonament.  

Again, no disrespect to anyone on this site.  Breaking par from the Masters tee is a big hill, even for a climber.

Mike
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 10:12:48 AM by Bogey_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Glenn Spencer

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #96 on: April 12, 2006, 10:13:48 AM »
Knox shot 73 in the damn tournament this year!!! What does more golf course than one can handle mean exactly? 6300? How often does one hit driver? Why in the hell, would I want to go to Augusta and hit irons off tees. Those member tees are probably set up for and I am just guessing, THE ABSOLUTE LEAST SKILLED MEMBERSHIP in the Country. Yet, lifelong golfers are supposed to go there and want to play the same tees.

Glenn Spencer

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #97 on: April 12, 2006, 10:16:22 AM »
Bogey,

If Green shot 73 in 2000, surely you think he could post a 71 in a friendly round or if he prefers a money game.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #98 on: April 12, 2006, 10:21:16 AM »
Glenn,

I don't bet, and wouldn't start by betting against Danny Green.  I doubt he could break par in ten tries.  And remember, he's ranked 20th.  In fairness, he's probably not the best benchmark as the increased distance there would be very problematic for him.

I wish John VB would weigh in as he's familiar with Danny's game.  

Question:  As a marker, did Knox hole every putt?

Mike
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 10:32:58 AM by Bogey_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #99 on: April 12, 2006, 10:22:23 AM »
David Ober,

All of your references and perspectives are in the context of when the golf course was much, much shorter, and not when it was at its currrent length.

The best players in the world, playing their best games can't break par, but, you can [size=4x] ? [/size]

I'll give you odds on the over-under on the par bet.

Doug Siebert,

What makes you think that your topped shot is going to get  you to the corner with even a look at the green from 200 + ?

What makes you think that you won't push or pull your tee shot into the woods on that narrow chute 100 yards off the tee.

Reality is a lot different from fantasy.

Mike Tyson got it right when he said, " Everybody has a game plan, until they get HIT."

Patrick, please READ WHAT I WRITE.

NEVER have I said I could "break par" under MASTERS CONDITIONS! Not once. Has that sunk in yet? How about now?

How about now?

Got it yet? Have you gone back and checked?

Good.

I've only ever said that I could shoot in the 70's in Masters conditions and gave you my reasons for believing strongly that I could do so. If you believe that the games of guys like Kevin Marsh, Greg Puga, and Tim Hogarth are so different than mine, then all you have to do is compare their scores to mine in tournaments that we have all played.

Regarding the "breaking par" thing: I said I could (not would) break par on the new course (7400 yards or so) if it was set up for normal member play. That is an almost guaranteed certainty for any player of my caliber if we got to play the course even five to ten times or so.

What many of you guys just don't understand is that it's not the speed of the greens that matters that much. Putting very, very fast greens is not that difficult, I don't care how much break there is in them. It's just a matter of hitting your putts to certain spots, and having a knowledgeable caddie helps a tremendous amount in that regard. If the greens were unputtable for a very good amateur, then every mid-amateur champion that gets the opportunity to play in the Masters would have 42 putts a round, which they clearly do not. Here's why the conditions at the Masters (and every major championship) make it so difficult for all but the very best players in the world to break par:

It's the firmness of the greens combined with the speed. It's not the putting that does these guys in for the most part! It's their inability to stop the ball on the greens in reasonable places when they have anything more than a 7-iron into a hole. Miss a green at Augusta, especially on the short side, and you will often have a difficult time stoping the ball within 12 feet, let alone tap-in range.

Anyway, I'm done with you, Patrick, unless you can learn to read what I write. Please stop repeating that I said I could break par under Masters conditions -- I never said it or even hinted at it. I do not believe I could do so. The course as it is now is simply too long and the greens too firm for me to do so. Mid-seventies to mid-80's is where I would be if I ever get the opportunity to play in the Masters, which I might actually get some day should I be fortunate enough to win the U.S. Mid-Amateur, something that I doubt I will ever do, but that is in the realm of possibility for many players of my ability level.