Huck:

You have missed my point.

Lakota is affordable.

Lakota is not walkable for most people -- so what?

If one were to take your point to its logical conclusion -- then courses should only be built on land that is completely walkable and likely devoid of any meaningful qualities to it.

We have such a thing -- it's called Florida. Guess what -- even with dead flat sites that are walkable -- they mandate carts.

I also take issue with the idea that a "separate" category needs to be created. Why? Because carts are used? That's silly. I said before that when the cart usage becomes the end-all be-all in order to play a course then it frankly is not about the golf but about the riding. Lakota and Pradera do not suffer from that.

Gentlemen:

I suggest a new category : Walkable AND Expensive

Huck can stay with his category: Walkable AND Affordable

To bring in another architect's work, Kelly Blake Moran's Morgan Hill, often discussed here, is Unwalkable for most, certainly not me, AND affordable.

What's the big deal here?

Fossil Trace does look cool, and your review makes for an excellent read.  You just made no comment on walkability... And furthermore, how can you call that a "steal" at $60 when Riverdale Dunes is never more than $34?  I don't get it.

$60 is a steal for most parts of CA - is it really for Golden, CO?

I've played both of these courses, but comparing them is difficult. Riverdale, when built, was on the outskirts of the Denver Metro area. There's a lot of houses out there now, but I considered it to be a bit of a hoof to get out there when it first came on the scene. That said, it was always worth the trip. It is a fun, open course that, when played from the proper set of tees, is not overly difficult if you can find the wide fairways and stay out of the (knee-high) long stuff and the water. I shot my personal best score there one summer day, crushing the golf spirit of my best friend who took a year off after his humiliating defeat.

But I digress. Fossil Trace is right in the heart of Golden, built in the middle of an existing community. There is no doubt that the shoe-horning shows a bit, but it is, in my estimation, very walkable. Is every single tee box directly adjacent to the previous green? No, there's a bit of a walk between 9 and 10, and between 10 and 11, and the property is hilly, but the walks are negotiable. I'm not a small person, and I had no difficulty walking the course. I'd be interested in the opinion of others.

But as I said, other than being near Denver, the courses are very different in design and execution. FT has a manufactured look, and doesn't lay on the ground like a "found" course. Many of the bunkers have the banked, "muscular" design that many do not like when they opine on Engh's designs (This is the only Engh I have played). On the ground, with my clubs in my hand, I enjoyed the course very much, but I can't disagree with Mr. Pitner's assertion that it is not "classic" design.  It is different. I wouldn't call it "goofy," because that word suggests immaturity. I might suggest "over-wrought," as if ever little hill and edge and bank was tortuously thought-out. I liked the visual appeal of the course, and my friends often suggest having a round there, as there are lots of little things to discover about it, and it is undeniably fun. The rocks don't bother me, as we ARE right up against the beginnings of the Rocky Mountains, and they are perhaps a more appropriate hazard for Colorado than sand OR water. However, for me, it IS a bit pricey, but in line with many other courses in the area like Vista Ridge, Buffalo Run, Deer Creek, etc., though not as expensive as the likes of the Omni Interlocken course (Graham/Panks), which is very expensive ($80-$105), and not worth the money IMHO.

The Dunes is probably my favorite public course in the area, 'though I make no claim to have played them all. There are some manufactured qualities to be found there, to be sure, but it is a more natural looking and playing course than FT, and has the now "classic" railroad-tie look on the water holes  .  I love that after 2:00 p.m. on Weekends it costs $25. I particularly like the 13th (tough 4 with a native-grass-covered bank to the left from which recovery is, uh, challenging) and the par 5 16th, with its rumpled fairway. I also like that next to the Dunes course is the Knolls course, of little interest to most gca types (if there is a "type"), but an easier course that beginners can enjoy without all the opportunities for lost balls on the Dunes.

In short (not my best thing) I can't say that FT is a "steal," perhaps, but it is most enjoyable to play. Perhaps I need to play more "classic designs" to be able to properly put it in its place. I'm looking forward to that.

Huck:

With all due respect -- you don't know the Denver / Colorado golf market and prices. Courses in and around Denver have to be more price sensitive because of the sheer offerings and the ability of players to pick and choose.

Go west of the front range and the golf options become quite expensive. What Lakota is charging is quite reasonable given the quality of the course (top 100 modern by Golfweek) and the nature of what Engh has designed.

Huck -- you need to see carts and their usage in a more balanced perspective. Go play courses where the ride is central to the experience and you can easily tell how the architecture final product has been badly compromised. That is not the case with Lakota or Pradera.

Matt, as you know, I've not played Fossil Trace.  Some of the holes I've seen, namely the standing stones on #12 and the rockpile on #15 strike me as somewhat goofy.  I'm not suggesting that the entire course is goofy--Kirk's term of "overwrought" might be more appropriate.  Trying too hard is something Mr. Engh seems to be guilty of at times.  And, I think he is consciously trying to be different and that's fine--I just happen to prefer more minimalist styles.  

Richard, I was thinking of the stone walls at North Berwick as I criticized the look of the rocks on Fossil Trace #15.  To me, that eccentricity at North Berwick is more authentic and the rocks at Fossil Trace look contrived.  Maybe that will change with time or maybe I need to be more open-minded about incorporating elements like that into a golf course.  

Tom H, I'm going to come to Lakota's defense on price.  At $85, the course would be expensive in the Denver area.  But, in the mountains (it's near Glenwood Springs), because of all the resort courses, most golf courses are priced in the $75-$100+ range so $85 actually isn't too bad.

Huck:

Then don't tell me what is reasonable from a price perspective or what is onerous from a cart one as well. I've been to Colorado well over 25 times in my lifetime and played just about all the key courses there. I have a very good sense on what is charged there and know full well that courses west of the Front Range make it a point to capitalize on the short season. Lakota has chosen to keep itself available to a broader mass of people and the rates when truly analyzed are quite appropriate for what you get back.

The marketplace will sort this out because players have a tendency to influence those in the course business. You see it now with walker-only courses. More will likely follow.

I have no issue with carts (with my exception already stated) but the high priests here on GCA live in a fantasy world. Those that are the worst offenders with carts are ones that should be avoided -- Lakota and Pradera are far from that.

My economic threshold has no geographic boundries. $85 is $85 no matter where I'm at.

Do you guys that travel and play golf around the world get more money to spend when you're somewhere expensive? How does that work? Can I do a currency exchange from Michigan money to California money that makes things equal?

Joe

Huck,

How do you determine if a private course is expensive...

I don't.  I've said several times here that that's a different animal.

Do you read?

 

Tom H,

Although I mostly agree with you, it seems like you're defending an increasingly small piece of territory.  Should we generally prefer walkable, less expensive courses to cartball and more expensive courses?--yes.  But, we should also prefer good public courses to good private ones (not that I have anything against private courses per se, but I prefer the Scottish/Irish model where, at some times, the courses are accessible to all).  

To me, price is not the most important factor.  I will gladly pay a premium for a good golf course.  I happen to like my courses walkable and naturalistic.  If it takes $85 to purchase that, fine.  What's probably my favorite course, Pacific Dunes, costs $185.  That's not ideal, but when you compare it to all the mediocre courses out there that charge $150+, it's a bargain.  Now, I recognize that $185 is not affordable for many and we should absolutely recognize those good courses that charge more reasonable fees, but how much a course is praised shouldn't be determined by price.  

Tim P:

How do you in good conscious apply any tag ("goofy") to a course you have not played? I mean you are basing your assumptions simply through photography? Really. How much credibility do you suppose I lend to such an armchair quarterback position? Take a guess between zero and less than zero.

Tim -- do yourself a huge favor -- play a course before lobbing such a lazy man's analysis. Pictures don't provide near enough the experience that comes from hitting shots at the course.

How are the rocks at Fossil Trace contrived? Have you played the holes in question? The first par-5 on the back is well done IMHO and the element of skill is tested on such a hole. The likely asumption is that since Fossil Trace is not in Scotland and that Jim Engh is not the poster child clear favoritism as others here on GCA it then behooves people to make unfair assumptions from never having played the hole / course in question. How nice & convenient.

Don't take this personally Tim -- you need to sample -- personally play is how I define that -- the layouts Engh has created. Lakota Canyon is a joy to play and along with Greg Norman's layout at Red Sky Ranch are two of the best public courses one can play in The Centennial State and among the best one can play in the USA as well.


Huck:

Just to further my point on Lakota Canyon -- check out the cost to play all the other modern public courses rated by Golfweek that finished in the top 50. You'd be surprised to find how very reasonable Lakota is -- more bang for the buck.

I said this before -- I don't doubt that carts and the intrusive paths can be mindboggling when they become and end-all in order to play a course. I mentioned the example of Santa Luz in SoCal and while the layout there does have its moments -- it is the sheer nature of being "disconnected" because of the Marco Polo cart trails you must endure.

I've explained my rationale on carts and whether or not a course is then playable because of their overall presence / impact. I would not rate such courses if that were the case. However, I don't go into the process holding against any course that has carts on the agenda -- even if they are mandated.

Matt:

Please do peruse my new Topic re a new way to dole out praise - maybe you'll buy it, maybe you won't.  But that's what I'm getting at, far more than anything re Engh or any of his courses specifically.

And I still think $85 is a lot to pay for golf.

 

Tim:

Get real man -- you are applying a tag -- you can couch it anyway you like -- but you are applying a tag to particular holes you have not played. Do you understand my frustration in dealing with people who opine on courses simply from photographs?

How fair is that to the architect and those connected to the facility?

Tim -- you say you have no plans to play Fossil Trace but are quick to point out how "contrived" a particular hole is. That is absolute rubbish on your part. The only sure fire way to know if it's contrived is to play the said hole / course. At that point -- not any sooner mind you -- do you then have some credibility.

Tim -- you can't begin to understand the aesthetics until you see how functional they are through an actual visit / play of the course. This is just a boneheaded -- forgive me it's not personal -- way of course analysis. The par-5 12th works very well as hole and the rock features are related to what was at the site -- they weren't trucked in from Home Depot.

Please -- apply a good bit more due diligence on your part. Too often the "shoot from the hip" crowd here on GCA doesn't know shit from shinnnola.