News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #75 on: October 19, 2005, 07:19:55 PM »
Don't know if it's been posted elsewhere, but here's Bamberger's side of the story:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/golf/10/19/bamberger.qandq/index.html
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #76 on: October 19, 2005, 07:50:23 PM »
I thought I had explained this by quoting some of Tuft's "The Principles Behind the Rules of Golf". This is not just some far-fetched reference on my part, that book and most eveything that's said in it really is what the USGA does rely on to a large extent in philosophical rules situation questions and opinions such as yours.

You've explained the origins of the rule, the philosophy behind it, and the rationale behind what was done--all of which I comprehend.  Please stop trying to enlighten me.

What you have NOT done is justify the severity of the penalty.  Frankly, by default, you've actually made a better argument for quitting the game than competing within it.


JohnV

Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #77 on: October 19, 2005, 08:39:16 PM »
Carlyle,  

The primary justification is:

It is not required to determine intent.  Did she just make a mistake or did she cheat?  I think you would agree that if she knowingly cheated and it could be proven she should be DQ'ed.  The rule, which has been in effect since at least 1934, does this.  Once you have turned in your score, it is frozen and if it is found that you didn't count all your strokes, you are DQ'ed.  In order for some stability, after the tournament is complete, it must be proven that you cheated or an actual stroke wasn't counted (for which there is no excuse for missing.)

In a letter to a player who was DQ'ed in 1937 for having two scores reversed on his card and wanted to know why he should be DQ'ed when the total was correct, the USGA replied:

Quote
The penalty may seem severe, but the severity has had a very salutary effect down through the years in effecting scrupulous care on the part of all competitors.  So it has been found that the Rule works the greatest good for the greatest number especially when it is remembered that the competitor is playing against the entire field and each competitor who adheres strictly to the Rules is entitled to have all other competitors do likewise.  While the error occurred in your case despite your honest intentions, intent in all cases is not an easy matter of proof and therefore enforcement or waiving of the penalty is not and cannot be base upon intention.

TEPaul

Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #78 on: October 19, 2005, 10:06:31 PM »
"You've explained the origins of the rule, the philosophy behind it, and the rationale behind what was done--all of which I comprehend.  Please stop trying to enlighten me.":

Carlyle Rood:

No problem at all--- I most surely will stop trying to do that.

"What you have NOT done is justify the severity of the penalty.  Frankly, by default, you've actually made a better argument for quitting the game than competing within it."

If that's the way you feel about it and what I've said to you about it then all I can say to you now is good damn riddance if someone of your philosophy and attitude about golf and its Rules quits competing in the game of golf. In my opinion, and in the opinion of golfers like me the game probably doesn't need you or even want you or one of your moral philosophy.

Perhaps the best thing for a person of what seems to be your philosophy in this vein is the practice of Law or the endeavor of Social Engineering, neither of which have much at all to do with the historic and traditional principles of the Rules of Golf.


« Last Edit: October 19, 2005, 10:09:15 PM by TEPaul »

noonan

Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #79 on: October 19, 2005, 10:49:30 PM »
This Bamberger/Wie story has gotten outta hand. Must be a low news time this week.

Here's the way I wish this thing had turned out.

1. Bamberger blows the whistle on Wie a day late leading to the 6-6, DQ possibilty.

2. The two Rules officials take Wie and her caddy out to the scene of the crime after the final round to review and establish the "facts" from Wie and her caddy.

3. They all agree on the established points, measure them and sure enough Bamberger is right, Wie is wrong and it looks like a "no way out" DQ for Wie with the loss of $53,000 in her first pro tourney.

4. At that point Wie rather sotto voce says to the two rules officials;
"Look guys, I've been watching you two glance at me furtively and lasciviously. I may be young but I'm not dumb, I know what's on your minds. So it looks like I was over the line by about 12-15 inches, maybe even 18 full inches, and I know to you guys, the "Committee, The USGA/R&A Rules of Golf  that means a "no way out" DQ and a loss of $53,000 to me due to Rule 6-6, Rule 28, Rule 20-7 etc. So here's the deal. You've got a choice. A/ I'll pay each of you guys a grand or B/ The three of us can go over there behind that "original lie" Golden Lantana bush and you two can cop a simultaneous feel not to exceed 3 1/2 seconds. If you're worried someone like Bamberger is spying on us I'll act like I'm bending over to inspect where the ball originally lay in the Golden Lantana bush and that I'm accidently falling forward and you two can catch me and cop a simultaneous feel not to exceed 4 1/2 seconds. And for this you two overlook this 12-15 or even 18 inches nearer the hole thing and rule this situation in my favor that my ball was not "nearer the hole"."      

And so that's what they do. The two rules officials catch Michelle on the way down over behind the Golden Lantana bush and actually cop about a 6 1/2 second feel, that mildly pisses Michelle off.

Unfortunately, Michael Bamberger happens to be hidden over behind a rock near the Golden Lantana bush and he not only videos this whole shennigan-like arrangement but gets it on audio tape. This whole thing breaks in SI, it becomes an National sensation---the two rules officials get slammed in the Brig for lascivious conduct toward a minor (their lawyer argues that Michelle is 6'1" and amazingly nubile for a 16 year old leading his clients to momentarily forget she was a minor but the jury and judge didn't buy that defense).

Michelle becomes an even bigger overnight financial and Pop-star success and replaces Parris Hilton on all the super-market checkout counter rags for at least a full two weeks (Of course featuring the color photo of the simultaneous copped feel behind the Golden Lantana bush under banner headlines that scream "Michelle is pregnant from this secret Dessert tryst!!!!"). Michelle Wie & Co, LLD. PCC, CPO, Inc. eventually rakes in about $3.29 billion in all kinds of marketing schemes.

Best of all, when Michelle finally consents to speak to the press (where she graciously agrees to invite Michael and seat him in the front row center) about this stunt she admits that even though she may've been vaguely unaware that a couple of inches the wrong way could've cost her $53,000 and a DQ under the USGA/R&A Rules of Golf in the Samsung thing, at least she knew there is absolutely NO PENALTY (not even a single shot) in the Rules of Golf for bribing (with an option of cash or a quickly copped simultaneous feel) a couple of lascivious rules officials into seeing things her way in some minor Rule 28, 20-7 and 6-6 cock-up.

Now, THAT woulda been a STORY!!  ;)

(At the press conference LA Times golf contributor Geoff Shackelford asked Michelle how she feels now about the bribe option she offered those two rules officials, and Michelle says; "That's a totally great question Geoff---you know, like, thinking about that now I should've, like, offered those two, like, the option of A/ $1 million bucks each to be paid out over five years or B/ A simultaneous copped feel not to exceed 1 1/2 seconds" ).

Hall of fame post!

TEPaul

Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #80 on: October 19, 2005, 10:51:30 PM »
JVB:

From now on don't even bother to give explanations or quotations of why intent or motivation as to why a rule may get violated or breached has nothing to do with the Rules of Golf or their application by rules official and administrators. If any of those contributing on these threads on here haven't figured out the principles or reasons why by now then who really cares?

TEPaul

Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #81 on: October 19, 2005, 10:54:25 PM »
JerryK:

Are you sure you feel that way? Why don't you sleep on that opinion, and if you wake up tomorrow, or next week or next month and feel I should be cast out into oblivion, then so be it.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #82 on: October 19, 2005, 11:15:56 PM »
Don't know if it's been posted elsewhere, but here's Bamberger's side of the story:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/golf/10/19/bamberger.qandq/index.html

Thanks, Doug.

I'm afraid I laughed out loud at this:

BAMBERGER: When I reached the press tent, Michelle and Greg were headed out to the 7th green. I thought it would be intrusive to observe their proceedings. so I waited in the press tent.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #83 on: October 20, 2005, 12:43:49 AM »
Doug:

Thanks for posting that interview with Bamberger.

I guess I should admit again as Joe Logan did in his article in the Philadelphia Inquirer on Tuesday; Full Disclosure: Michael Bamberger is a friend of mine.

That posted interview with him settled the issue with me. What he said is just about everything I know about Michael Bamberger, with the exception of one comment;

"Q: But by waiting until the press conference, did you know it would be too late to correct her scorecard?

"BAMBERGER: That never crossed my mind. I was there to write about Michelle; she was my subject. Even now when it is presented to me, it's very hard to imagine going to an official before going to my subject."

That, I'm not sure I get right now---I must say if that statement is honest, Micheal Bamberger doesn't know the Rules as well as I thought he did and as well as I suspected he might have, and I must admit I'm gonna ask him how much he understood Rule 6-6 and its ramifications at the time all this was going on, and if, or how, he felt about that when he was thinking about and apparently struggling with this issue either before or after she signed her score-card.

The rest, to me, is pure Michael Bamberger as I've known him and his feelings about golf and its principles, and the integrity of golf, for about fifteen years.

Bamberger got it right, even if his timing was amiss for reasons I don't understand right now. He went right to the heart of the issue--eg was a rule violated or not---and forget about the "attendant circumstances" of money, Wie's reaction, golf or golf fans' reaction, opprobrium towards him, or anything else.

The heart of the matter was a real fundamental principle of golf---was a Rule violated or was it not? Forget about fame, money, condemnation or the rest, it's the same for one as it is for the other.

Bamberger, reserving his timing, got it right, in my opinion. Some of you on this issue, and from your comments, aren't even in the same ballpark of understanding of golf's principles and golf's integrity, as is Bamberger.

I don't think anyone will lose on this one other than the clattering critics---as usual. Wie, Bamberger and certainly golf is gonna win on this one. Revelation, process, examination, decison.

Golf won again.



Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #84 on: October 20, 2005, 09:35:47 AM »
If that's the way you feel about it and what I've said to you about it then all I can say to you now is good damn riddance if someone of your philosophy and attitude about golf and its Rules quits competing in the game of golf. In my opinion, and in the opinion of golfers like me the game probably doesn't need you or even want you or one of your moral philosophy.

I should quit?  You got it.  Let it be known that I will never play another tournament professionally on the LPGA Tour.

C

P.S. If the PGA Tour has Tiger, then would the LPGA Tour now have a Cheetah (Wie)?

TEPaul

Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #85 on: October 20, 2005, 09:42:14 AM »
"I should quit?  You got it.  Let it be known that I will never play another tournament professionally on the LPGA Tour."

I realize that will be a very hard thing but I admire your integrity and "principle" for doing it. It must be very psychologically taxing to go back into the closet.

"P.S. If the PGA Tour has Tiger, then would the LPGA Tour now have a Cheetah (Wie)?"

 P.S.Obviously you must be in marketing and very good at it.

T
« Last Edit: October 20, 2005, 09:47:31 AM by TEPaul »

mikes1160

Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #86 on: October 20, 2005, 09:52:51 AM »
TEPaul,

I find it hard to believe "golf won". It's more a case of "golf journalism lost".  

Len Shapiro sums it up best in the Washington Post:

"I believe he was dead wrong and did the absolutely dishonorable thing for his profession. He was there as a representative of his publication, given credentials by the LPGA to "cover" the event, not officiate it. If he wanted to mark off the yardage to prove the error of Wie's ways to himself and then to his readers, no problem there. If he wanted to write about his findings in the magazine, again, that certainly was his prerogative. But to seek out an official and report an alleged transgression in my mind does not and never has fit the job description for a journalist covering a golf tournament."



 

TEPaul

Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #87 on: October 20, 2005, 10:18:34 AM »
"TEPaul,
I find it hard to believe "golf won". It's more a case of "golf journalism lost"."

Mike:

Good point there. I know Michael and although he is a wonderful writer, he really is the type of guy who may have a problem with "two hats" at the same time. First and foremost Michael Bamberger has his "golf principle" hat on and it may not be that possible for his "journalist hat" to get on his head correctly and replace his "golf principle" hat.

Do you make some distinction in this issue between Bamberger the "journalist spectator" and Bamberger as just the "spectator"?  

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #88 on: October 20, 2005, 10:22:41 AM »
TEPaul: I understand the principle that there shall be equal punishment for infractions or violations of the rules and I support that position.  My belief or concern is why is it necessary that the punishment is disqualification simply because you've signed for the wrong score and the infraction comes to the attention of the committee before the competition has concluded?  Why not simply assess a 2 stroke penalty?  We are presuming that the violation was unintentional but whether it was or not makes no difference.  

     I do not have one tenth the knowledge that you do of the rules so I can't be as specific as you, but let me give you an example which comes to mind which seems to fly in the face of this.  It is my understanding that if you have more than 14 clubs in your bag during a round that whether it is discovered on the 4th hole or the 17th hole, the penalty in stroke play is the same, and so long as you assess yourself the penalty in totalling your strokes when you turn in your score, it does not matter.  It could easily be argued that each hole that you played with the extra club should result in a penalty but they put a limit on the penalty strokes.  
     
     So for us of the not too smart group please explain why the penalty has to be disqualification.  Not that the penalty is the same across the board but why is the penalty disqualification?

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #89 on: October 20, 2005, 10:23:30 AM »
after all this to and fro, I still think he was wrong not to bring it up at the time..
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #90 on: October 20, 2005, 10:37:54 AM »
"Do you make some distinction in this issue between Bamberger the "journalist spectator" and Bamberger as just the "spectator"?  "

Tom

Apparently, Leonard Shapiro of the Washington Post does. I'll have to check but I'm not sure if there is a codified Journalism Code of Ethics/Professional Responsibility. Anyone can be a journalist unlike licensed professions.There is no bar exam.

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #91 on: October 20, 2005, 10:43:53 AM »
JerryK:

Good questions on the apparent need for disqualification. The best I can do is to quote you from Tufts book because essentially that really is what the rules-writers will go to on matters like this. At least that has very much been my personal experience with them over the years on rules questions, proposals and other matters. I gotta go out. I'll do the research and get back to you.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #92 on: October 20, 2005, 10:44:14 AM »
Bamberger, reserving his timing, got it right, in my opinion.

So did Captain Smith of the Titanic, reserving that iceberg!

That posted interview with him settled the issue with me. What he said is just about everything I know about Michael Bamberger, with the exception of one comment;

"Q: But by waiting until the press conference, did you know it would be too late to correct her scorecard?

"BAMBERGER: That never crossed my mind. I was there to write about Michelle; she was my subject. Even now when it is presented to me, it's very hard to imagine going to an official before going to my subject."

That, I'm not sure I get right now---I must say if that statement is honest, Micheal Bamberger doesn't know the Rules as well as I thought he did and as well as I suspected he might have, and I must admit I'm gonna ask him how much he understood Rule 6-6 and its ramifications at the time all this was going on, and if, or how, he felt about that when he was thinking about and apparently struggling with this issue either before or after she signed her score-card.

I can almost hear Roger Maltbie: "If you're gonna cover this game, you've gotta know the rules."

I think Len Shapiro is dead wrong, by the way. There was absolutely nothing dishonorable about what Bamberger did. And journalism is not a "profession," either.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #93 on: October 20, 2005, 10:58:41 AM »
Dan Kelly,

In reponse to Mile Scaletta's post you wrote:

"I think Len Shapiro is dead wrong, by the way. There was absolutely nothing dishonorable about what Bamberger did. And journalism is not a "profession," either."

With repect, I think Shapiro was dead right and if journalism is not a profession, why do some of your brethren go to jail to protect their scources? A code of ethics, an obligation to report and not become part of the fabric of a story a la  Geraldo Rivera?  I would be loathe to say that Murrow et al were not professionals, you included.


 
 

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #94 on: October 20, 2005, 11:03:46 AM »
Dan: Journalism is indeed a profession, as per the Webster's definition, and secondly, as a journalist, I've been on the fence on this, but I'm starting to agree with Shapiro.

I'll give a quick example of something that happened recently in our news room as a comparison point. During a high profile murder trial, a witness made a number of statements that seemed to very much hurt the case of the defense. A reporter in our newsroom later found a weblog where the witness seemed to contradict much of her testimony. Did he take it to the judge? No. He reported on it, and then the defense used the evidence to get a mistrial.

If this had been Bamberger, he would have taken it directly to the court and asked to present the evidence himself. Reporters are meant to observe, not participate. At least that's my take -- though those boundaries are not nearly as clear in the profession as they once were. I think Bamberger crossed the line here, but as I tried to point out earlier, it is sort of what he has done historically.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #95 on: October 20, 2005, 11:24:49 AM »
Steve Shaffer,

if you knew about "the bar exam" in journalism you'd never read another sports page again.

Seriously, if I'm covering a local hearing for a golf course development and I witness the applicant presenting data to the committee that I think is wrong, I don't then go join the list of speakers and present alternative testimony to the committee. Instead,I write it up in good journalistic fashion in my magazine or newspaper and document the case. Then let the committee handle the fallout. Do I suborn perjury in that case? The question is moot, since it's my job to report, not to interject into the formal record and correct the evidentiary hearing.

By the way, if journalism is not a profession then I've been wasting my time for at least a decade.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2005, 11:25:22 AM by Brad Klein »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #96 on: October 20, 2005, 11:39:47 AM »
Bob and Robert --

I should not have brought the "profession" question into this -- because it has absolutely nothing to do with this issue (IMO).

I prefer the more traditional definition of "profession" -- in the words of www.m-w.com: "a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive academic preparation."

I don't think journalism qualifies under that definition. But let's not argue about that. There's no future in it!

--------------

Robert --

Can we agree that Bamberger was walking a fine line here? Or, rather, stumbling a fine line?

If, as you and Len Shapiro want, he had "reported" to his readers (and not to tournament officials) that Wie had made a questionable drop (he certainly couldn't have PROVED it; they had to take Wie and her caddy back out to the spot, with string, to PROVE it) ... a questionable drop for which she had escaped penalty ... he would have saddled her, for the rest of her career, with the sort of stain that has dogged Vijay Singh all these years. That, to my mind, would have been unforgivable.

Quite unlike the example from your newsroom, there would have been no way to create a just resolution for all parties.

-----------

As for whether reporters "are meant to observe, not participate": In a perfect world, maybe. That's not the world we live in, and it never has been.

If it were, there would be no need for journalists.

Everyone knows that observation is a form of participation -- and that the presence of observers changes the things being observed.

Whether Bamberger crossed the line between acceptable and unacceptable observation-participation is, of course, a matter of opinion.

You think he did. I think he didn't -- but that his timing in not crossing it was fatally flawed.

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #97 on: October 20, 2005, 11:41:42 AM »
By the way, if journalism is not a profession then I've been wasting my time for at least a decade.

Why would you say that? There are thousands of perfectly respectable and essential trades that do not qualify as "professions."
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

JohnV

Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #98 on: October 20, 2005, 12:16:02 PM »

Seriously, if I'm covering a local hearing for a golf course development and I witness the applicant presenting data to the committee that I think is wrong, I don't then go join the list of speakers and present alternative testimony to the committee. Instead,I write it up in good journalistic fashion in my magazine or newspaper and document the case. Then let the committee handle the fallout. Do I suborn perjury in that case? The question is moot, since it's my job to report, not to interject into the formal record and correct the evidentiary hearing.

It may be your job, but what about your duty as a citizen?  If they were about to approve a multi-million project with serious implications for the local citizens (of which you were one), why do you feel that your testimony shouldn't be given?  If you write it up the next day, but they've already voted on it and it is too late to change it haven't you done the wrong thing?

By becoming a journalist, you don't give up your rights and duties as a citizen.

And yes, the example is more serious issue than seeing a player take an incorrect drop, but it can apply all down the line.

It seems you think that Bamberger should have said nothing and then written a story saying that Wie broke a rule and didn't get caught.  That seems wrong to me.  As a matter of fact, I think it would be more wrong that what he did.

All this sounds like an attempt to get a scoop rather than do the right thing.

rgkeller

Re:Bamberger/Wei
« Reply #99 on: October 20, 2005, 12:27:46 PM »
In the examples of both Mr. Thompson and Mr. Klein there was sufficient time for the reporter to write a story and get it read by the appropriate parties responsible for decisions/justice BEFORE the window for the final decision had passed.

Not so in the case of Wie/Bamberger