Sand Hills: 50 words or less

« **Reply #75 on:** September 28, 2005, 03:58:33 PM »

The golf, the isolation, the food, and the staff. All are superlative, and "civilization" disappears while you are there.

Josh,
The golf is the primary factor for me. I love NGLA, Cypress, Pacific Dunes,and Sand Hills equally from an architecture standpoint, but then SH comes out on top mostly due to its isolation and the tranquility you experience out there on that land.
Congrats bythe way for the conditioning of WH. Your course is in better shape than any I've seen this year, and given the price point and resources you have, it is all the more impressive.
Wild Horse continues to grow on me with each round. In the midst of a 7500 mile family vacation, I woke up at 4:30 in the morning to try and get a round in before a shotgun start at 8:00. The pro was accomodating and the sub-2 hr. round in a cart was worth the sleep deprivation. As to your question, WH has some really solid holes, with a few plain holes, but no greatest hole in golf contenders. SH #7 and 14 are all world, IMHO.
If SH is getting by on the "experience" factor, what holes are not up to snuff in your opinion?

Jerry,
If Pac Dunes and SH were in the same setting I would play them evenly. Otherwise, I give the nod to SH because of the isolation factor. Architecturally I think they are about as good as golf can get.

« **Reply #76 on:** September 28, 2005, 04:09:03 PM »

The key to why Sand Hills is such a great golf course probably is the land. But it's not quite that simple. Next an architect has to understand how to use that great land to near its max for golf and not screw it up somehow or just use it incorrectly. Bill and Ben may be great at a lot of things to do with golf architecture but understanding how to just use land, particularly great land, to near its max without screwing it up somehow just may be what they're best at.

« **Reply #77 on:** September 28, 2005, 04:29:59 PM »

I've mentioned this on here before but if you give those guys a site with the golf potential of Sand Hills it probably becomes something of a artistic overload on them to figure out what's the best of so many possibilities (and that would probably explain something as voluminous as what's on that "Constellation Map").

But what about the other end of the spectrum---eg where there doesn't appear much of anything naturally potential for golf?

And that was the time Bill Coore sure did blow my mind one time years ago when walking around out in the woods with him where you couldn't seen 20 feet in any direction and he had no plans, no topo, no nothing.

After walking around in the woods like that for about half a day I had to ask him what in the hell we or he was doing out there if there was so little to see or identify. He said; "See that little bump on the ground over there that's about three feet in diameter? If that's all there is I can use that to start to work off the land for golf."

That's when I realized that he was a man who obviously had tremendous imagination in this way and perhaps as good a feel as anyone ever had for how to use almost anything the land is giving you in a golf way.

« **Reply #78 on:** September 28, 2005, 04:34:56 PM »

Quote from: TEPaul on September 28, 2005, 04:09:03 PM

The key to why Sand Hills is such a great golf course probably is the land. But it's not quite that simple. Next an architect has to understand how to use that great land to near its max for golf and not screw it up somehow or just use it incorrectly. Bill and Ben may be great at a lot of things to do with golf architecture but understanding how to just use land, particularly great land, to near its max without screwing it up somehow just may be what they're best at.

Tom,

I don't disagree at all. But, for discussion purposes only, is it plausible that, say, Eddie Hackett could have produced A great golf course there? AS great a golf course?

Mike

« **Reply #79 on:** September 28, 2005, 05:19:55 PM »

"Tom,
I don't disagree at all. But, for discussion purposes only, is it plausible that, say, Eddie Hackett could have produced A great golf course there? AS great a golf course?
Mike"

Bogey:

I have no idea at all what Eddie Hackett may've done if given Sand Hills by Youngscap. I don't know much of anything about Eddie other than he did some respected courses in Ireland, right?

But if you're really asking me if any architect would've done virtually the same thing that Coore and Crenshaw did at Sand Hills just because the land seems so good for golf I'd say categorically and definitely not---in my opinion.

This notion that some might entertain that any good architect is going to find THE IDEAL ROUTING (the same routing) or even the SAME USE of the exact same landforms is perhaps the biggest bullshit in all of golf architectural understanding, in my book.

But if you're asking me if there are other potential routings and potential uses of even the same landforms for holes as what Coore and Crenshaw did there I'd say that certainly is possible, in my mind, although I have no idea what they or that may be.

To me this is all part of the mysteries of golf course architecture---something one may legitimately term "THE GREATEST JIGSAW PUZZLE of them all!

(Not just that but in some cases you even get to make the peices---unfortunately!

).

« **Reply #80 on:** September 28, 2005, 07:11:12 PM »

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on September 28, 2005, 11:39:53 AM

Adam:

I don't think you're remembering it correctly. There are only two tees at Sand Hills that one climbs up to reach (2 and 17), and one of them doesn't exist any more (17). Several of the tees seem raised because the ground falls off below them... but you reach them at a level from the previous green more or less.

Your recollection, versus the facts, as supported by photographic evidence, seems fuzzy when it comes to SH.
Perhaps it was the clean air, the altitude or just the drugs.

How would you define the right side tee on # 5 ?
Seems like a good climb to me.
How about the tee at # 9
Seems like a good climb to me.
# 13 and # 15 are moderate climbs, but, climbs nonetheless.

How would you define the walk from # 1 tee to the fairway ?
# 2 tee to the fairway
# 3 tee to the green
# 4 tee to the fairway.
# 5 tee to the fairway
# 9 tee to the fairway
# 10 tee to the fairway
# 11 tee to the fairway
# 12 tee to the fairway
# 13 tee to the green
# 14 tee to the fairway
# 15 tee to the fairway
# 16 tee to the fairway
# 18 tee to the fairway[/color]

« **Reply #81 on:** September 28, 2005, 07:29:20 PM »

Geoff Childs,

I agree, the sites at Sand Hills and Friar's Head are extraordinary.

I didn't find the walks at Friar's Head cumbersome in the least.

It may be that the land and the grand scale that exists at SH are the reasons why each hole seems unto itself.

But, didn't you find that the golf course goes from elevated tee to elevated green ?

And as such, cumbersome walks are created within each hole and from hole to hole.

That may be the trade off for creating the best holes the land would provide, and, there were many of them, as evidenced by the constellation routing.

Tom Huckaby,

One of the reasons golfers use carts for the first round might be related to the rigors of getting there from across the country. It can be a long and tiresome journey.

Some people lose their tickets between the security check-in and the gate, and spend all of their lay-over time, runing through the airport trying to find them. That can be exhausting, to them, and to those who travel with them.

Then, I was stopped and searched three times on the return flights just because my seat was next to his because he appears on the travel alert watch list.

I tell you, it ain't easy being TEPaul's custodian and trustee, just ask that gorgeous flight attendent who had to endure TEPaul telling her that he was Bill Coore, the world famous golf architect.

If you think walking WH is equivalent to walking SH there is something seriously wrong with your:

A. Brain
B. Feet
C. Lungs
D. Muscles
E. Eyes
F. All of the above

« **Reply #82 on:** September 28, 2005, 08:25:22 PM »

I can do it in exactly one word:

PURE!

« **Reply #83 on:** September 28, 2005, 09:35:50 PM »

"I tell you, it ain't easy being TEPaul's custodian and trustee, just ask that gorgeous flight attendent who had to endure TEPaul telling her that he was Bill Coore, the world famous golf architect."

Would you just listen to this Kiwi KaKA??

That hyper-active nefarious character in first class, Patrick Mucci, conned that gorgeous flight attentant in First Class into sallying forth into the economy section where all us hoi-polloi were sitting. I actually watched the beauty sashaying slowly down the aisle all the way from first class and I was in about row 27. She seemed to be casually checking out the passengers on either side but how in the Hell was I supposed to know all she was looking for was the Sand Hills golf cap I was wearing. So she finally gets to me and says; "You're the world famous golf course architect Bill Coore aren't you?" Fairly surprised by that I said: "Well, no, I'm not but I do know him." Then she just sashayed back up the aisle to First class. To be honest, I guess I'm not too swift on the uptake because I didn't even realize what that was all about until we got into Newark when Pat finally let on to the practical joke.

But just you wait, Patrick, I'm gonna get you about ten times better than that just when you're least expecting it. It'll be something along the lines of that practical joke that someone like Feherty played on one of his European tour player buddies during a cocktail party with all the wifes when to the horror of his tour buddie a big ice cube wrapped in a condom floated to the top of the poor guy's gin and tonic right in front of his wife.

« **Reply #84 on:** September 28, 2005, 09:52:58 PM »

TEPaul,

After you said that you knew him, I believe she said, "big deal, so does your friend Pat".

She sure was gorgeous, and personable, with a nice figure.
But, who was looking.
I think it was the pink shirt you were wearing that got her attention.

I think the 17th hole, from the abandoned upper tee, would have to be one of the most difficult par 3's in the world, especially with the varying winds.

Ran and I played shots from up there and it made for a frightening presentation, probably the most difficult shot on the entire golf course, by far.

Does anyone know what the upper tee's shelf life was ?

And, was there a lower tee when the upper tee was in use ?

« **Reply #85 on:** September 28, 2005, 10:09:37 PM »

"TEPaul,
After you said that you knew him, I believe she said, "big deal, so does your friend Pat".

Oh, is that what you believe she said you big fat liar? How the hell would you know what she said since you were sitting at the other end of the airplane at the time spilling a glass of chamagne all over your bib?

« **Reply #86 on:** September 28, 2005, 10:19:14 PM »

"I think the 17th hole, from the abandoned upper tee, would have to be one of the most difficult par 3's in the world, especially with the varying winds."

It also would've been one of the most ridiculous par 3s in the world you big architectural phony baloney. You never went anywhere near that tee back up on the top of that ridge, you big fat liar. Only I did that. And you weren't listening very well when Dick Youngscap was explaining that back tee, were you? The next thing we know you'll probably be trumpeting its restoration as if it was some great lose through redesign.

« **Reply #87 on:** September 28, 2005, 10:33:52 PM »

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on September 28, 2005, 07:11:12 PM

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on September 28, 2005, 11:39:53 AM
Adam:

I don't think you're remembering it correctly. There are only two tees at Sand Hills that one climbs up to reach (2 and 17), and one of them doesn't exist any more (17). Several of the tees seem raised because the ground falls off below them... but you reach them at a level from the previous green more or less.

Your recollection, versus the facts, as supported by photographic evidence, seems fuzzy when it comes to SH.
Perhaps it was the clean air, the altitude or just the drugs.

How would you define the right side tee on # 5 ?
Seems like a good climb to me.
How about the tee at # 9
Seems like a good climb to me.
# 13 and # 15 are moderate climbs, but, climbs nonetheless.

How would you define the walk from # 1 tee to the fairway ?
# 2 tee to the fairway
# 3 tee to the green
# 4 tee to the fairway.
# 5 tee to the fairway
# 9 tee to the fairway
# 10 tee to the fairway
# 11 tee to the fairway
# 12 tee to the fairway
# 13 tee to the green
# 14 tee to the fairway
# 15 tee to the fairway
# 16 tee to the fairway
# 18 tee to the fairway[/color]

Patrick:

I believe you are sadly mistaken.

I have walked and carried 54 holes at Sand Hills in a single day on several occasions. Granted it was in Sept each time and not July. One guy who did it with me was fully 60 lbs overweight. And I'm closing in on 50 and am by no means Twiggy.

Virtually every example you've printed above is silly and simply not true. The walk from #1 tee to the fairway?? It's downhill!!! So are a majority of your examples.

Factor in the time you were there was the only time in ten years the wind didn't blow with the highest temps for June as well and, true, I wasn't going to walk 54. But 36 would have been a snap.

The only true brutal walk is from the 1st green to the square (middle) #2 tee as Mr. Huckaby as pointed out. Walking up to the 18th green after playing a full round can test one as well.

If one plays the diamond tees (6900) it is a rather nice walk, moreso than from the shorter tees. Every tee is right next to the green. The double diamonds (7050) are even more convenient.

I have heard the comment repeatedly over the years, "It really wasn't a bad walk." The course looks to be a tough walk but isn't.

And what the hell are YOU doing telling people to "look at the photographic evidence?"

« **Reply #88 on:** September 29, 2005, 08:16:56 AM »

TEPaul,

Actually, she described her brief conversation with you as she was feeding me Champagne laced with roofies, trying her best to take advantage of me.

As to the 17th tee I vividly recall our conversation with Dick Youngscap about # 17 as well as # 4.

Ran and I played the hole and it was visually intimidating.
In addition, without the wind it was a difficult shot.
The wind would have made it much more so.

Gene,

The photographic evidence pictured Tom Huckaby standing by his drive, far, far removed from the fairway, an errant shot that somehow slipped his mind.

The walks have probably become second nature to you after many years of playing there, but, they exist.
Whether it be from green to tee or tee to fairway, uphill or down, they're mostly through sandy soil which makes walking more difficult.

Perhaps I was fatiqued from searching the entire Denver Airport for TEPaul's lost ticket for half of a day.

Or perhaps, waiting for the freight trains to abate so that we could cross the tracks after playing Wild Horse wore me out.
It seemed like an eternity.

« **Reply #89 on:** September 29, 2005, 10:18:00 AM »

Patrick:

That photographic evidence had not slipped my mind - I never said I hit EVERY shot perfectly in the fairway - I just said I didn't spend much time tromping through the sand dunes. And I didn't. The shot in question was a horrid pull on #16, which I ended up finding. Thankfully it was a rarity. I was surprised someone pulled out that photo though!

As for the rest, well I'll go with Mr. Greco, thank you very much.

Unless you think you know more about the course than he does!

Hey, all I ever maintained on this issue are two things:

1. Relative to really tough walks, Sand Hills is not that bad at all;

2. Saying Wild Horse and Sand Hills are "night and day" different in this respect is poppycock.

And I will stand by those statements.

In any case, that is a good explanation why some take a cart on their first round upon arrival. But now tell me why so many OTHERWISE YOUTHFUL AND ABLE-BODIED chaps take one the first round on the 2nd day there. Hey, I have nothing really against it - as you saw I rode several times there. It just does surprise me how wide-spread it is, that's all... Because it there's one thing that is irrefutable here, it's that the course is far better enjoyed walking.

TH

« **Reply #90 on:** September 29, 2005, 10:21:12 AM »

Patrick:

In Nebraska freight trains don't abate--like the Mississippi they just keep rolling along. The only thing that abated out there is your memory.

Speaking of Nebraska, the other day I was listening to KYW on my way to Philly Cricket to officiate and I sort of half heard the #1 new item of the day which was this massive weapon and/or drug bust of one of America's real bad guys. I wasn't paying that much attention until they mentioned where he got busted. You guessed it---The North Platte airport!!

I thought those birds out there already had their excitement for the year.

What do you consider being taken advantage of---when a good looking flight attendant has to mop up the champagne you've spilled all over your bib?

« **Reply #91 on:** September 29, 2005, 11:29:09 AM »

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on September 28, 2005, 09:52:58 PM

I think the 17th hole, from the abandoned upper tee, would have to be one of the most difficult par 3's in the world, especially with the varying winds.

Ran and I played shots from up there and it made for a frightening presentation, probably the most difficult shot on the entire golf course, by far.

Does anyone know what the upper tee's shelf life was ?

And, was there a lower tee when the upper tee was in use ?

I can attest that the upper tee survived at least until the last weekend of play in 1996.

I can attest that it was, for me, a VERY punishing hole, in the wind, from that tee -- and was the hardest shot on the course, for me. (The second-hardest for me, if I remember right, was the tee shot on the long uphill par-3 [13?]. The hardest for Mr. Shefchik was the second on 18, from a lie in the left-side sand that did not allow a single-shot escape in any direction -- not that he didn't try several directions!] I seem to recall a couple of 6's on my card from up there on the top tee at 17.

And I can attest that there was a lower tee then, too -- though I'm not sure it's the lower tee now in use, because I haven't been back.

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