The perfect storm ?

« **Reply #75 on:** March 13, 2005, 11:32:25 AM »

The more appropriate person to ask would be the High School music teacher that has to modify Beethoven's fifth for his orchestra while still letting it sound the same.

I'd scan in and post two different versions of the score if I had them, but I only have one. There are many out there though.

Are notes added and deleted from classical scores? Yes, depending on who or what is playing them. John Williams and Arthur Fiedler both had very different interpretations of scores of music ranging from Bach to Gershwin.

Gershwin himself was known to perform Rhapsody in Blue by giving his conductor the orchestral parts, and leaving large blank spaces in the score for him to play piano: nodding to the conductor at the time when the rest of the orchestra should be brought in. This was done live in Radio City Music Hall, and the performances of the piece would change nightly, until Gershwin became satisfied with what was before him.

« **Reply #76 on:** March 13, 2005, 11:55:52 AM »

Pat, here's a wonderful example, using Rhapsody in Blue as the basis:

http://www.unitedrhapsody.com/unitedrhapsody_commercial.htm

Compare the themes in "Rose" and "Lightbulb"

Pity these were only done for United, as the arrangements and interpretations are wonderful.

« **Reply #77 on:** March 13, 2005, 12:05:42 PM »

Kyle Harris,

You're telling us that Beethoven's 5th has been altered.

It hasn't. It remains the same.

The notes and order of those notes remain the same as they were 100 years ago.

Beethoven's 5th does not contine, into the future, as modified by a high school music teacher. It is static. Golf courses change perpetually, organically and inorganically.

« **Reply #78 on:** March 13, 2005, 12:07:54 PM »

Patrick,

So unless someone prevents every little change on a golf course, it is no longer Donald Ross, or say... Merion, etc?

I think a leaf just fell at Pebble Beach, guess we'll have to rename it.

« **Reply #79 on:** March 13, 2005, 12:14:14 PM »

Kyle Harris,

You continue with extreme and absurd examples.

The notes are the core, the foundation of the music.

Leafs aren't the core, the foundation of the architecture,

You just don't get it.

« **Reply #80 on:** March 13, 2005, 12:18:51 PM »

Pat,

I demonstrate absurdity by being absurd, instead of picking out one line of my posts why don't you get to the core of my argument?

By your analogy, the minute some aspect of a golf course changes that golf course can no longer be considered the same and extending your analogy, would therefore need to be recredited or renamed...

By the way, all it takes is a key change, and every note in the whole score changes... but still sounds the same.

« **Reply #81 on:** March 13, 2005, 12:37:17 PM »

Quote from: Kyle Harris on March 13, 2005, 12:18:51 PM

Pat,

I demonstrate absurdity by being absurd, instead of picking out one line of my posts why don't you get to the core of my argument?

The core, like the component lines of your posts are flawed[/color]

By your analogy, the minute some aspect of a golf course changes that golf course can no longer be considered the same and extending your analogy, would therefore need to be recredited or renamed...

We're talking about the foundation, the core, the structure, not a change in the wind. Changing notes or their order changes the foundation, the core, the structure.[/color]

By the way, all it takes is a key change, and every note in the whole score changes... but still sounds the same.

The fact remains, Beethoven's 5th is the exact same today as it was 100 years ago.[/color]

« **Reply #82 on:** March 13, 2005, 12:45:06 PM »

Pat,

You've reduced yourself to naysaying. I've offered both empircal and conceptual evidence proving how music changes and your only counters have been arbitrary changes in definition and naysaying. I consider myself a patient and yeilding man, but things wear thin. If you want, go back carefully and read my progression throughout this thread and then come back with a thought out response, but I am not going to waste my time worrying about how you are going to line item veto every sentence I write while losing sight of the big picture or theme.

You are stating arguments without backing them up.

I find your methods of argument to be overly concialatory and facile.

« **Reply #83 on:** March 13, 2005, 01:49:38 PM »

Kylie Harris-

It appears you have entered deep into the land of Mucci, a swamp of a land where pedantry and pomposity rule and where (to paraphrase Scott Burroughs) "that he (Pat Mucci) has convinced (only) himself that he is right, he was never wrong in the first place (and would never admit so if it was even remotely possible), and he will ask a different question to deflect away from the overwhelming evidence against him on the previous issue."

My advice is to declare victory and find better things to do with your time!

DT

« **Reply #84 on:** March 13, 2005, 01:57:13 PM »

David,

Been cleaning my room in the interim... and replacing the window panes in my windows... and exchanging IMs with Tommy Naccarato, so all is well.

I can multitask.

« **Reply #85 on:** March 13, 2005, 02:24:16 PM »

Kyle Harris,

Quote from: Kyle Harris on March 13, 2005, 09:53:09 AM

I suppose in my 16 years of music study (the preponderance of which is classical) I must have missed something about Mozart's own feelings about his music.

Would you explain to us, now that you're age 21, how you spent the last 16 years studying music, (the prepponderance of which is classical) ?

I'm curious as to how you spent years 5 through 21 and how you came to be a professional golfer while studying music, especially classical music ?[/color]

« **Reply #86 on:** March 13, 2005, 02:26:29 PM »

David Tepper,

The question remains the same.

Has Beethoven's 5th changed in the last 100 years ?
Even you can answer that one.

He can declare whatever he wants, it doesn't validate his point.

By the way, what do you have to offer on the subject other then a personal attack ?

« **Reply #87 on:** March 13, 2005, 02:32:00 PM »

Well Pat, when you take piano lessons from age 5 to 14 and keep playing piano while practicing and studying it in school as elective courses when you can. And then play in a band... you can. Especially since I don't move over the winter and playing golf up here in the NE during the winter isn't possible all the time.

Playing golf for a high school team and dedicating myself to practice that improves my game has lead me to take up the game professionally. I didn't start playing golf until 1997, and in lieu of joining my friends for partying and drinking, I chose to spend my time on the golf course with the money I earned caddying. I made friends on the golf course and kept at that. I am also an Eagle Scout, want to question that too?

I do things I enjoy, and try to get good at them.

...darn...

And your question regarding Beethoven's Fifth has been answered with a yes. Whether or not that's what you're looking for is your problem.

« **Reply #88 on:** March 13, 2005, 02:37:48 PM »

Kyle Harris,

That's interesting, I did the same thing, took piano lessons when I was young, despite my friends knocking on my window, trying to get me to come out and play with them on saturday mornings when my teacher was giving me lessons, but, I don't think I would present myself as having been studied or schooled at much of anything at age 21.

Especially music, golf, marriage or chemical engineering.

You state that Beethoven's 5th has been altered.

Could you cite for me the dates it was altered, and by whom ?

I'm always willing to learn.

« **Reply #89 on:** March 13, 2005, 02:40:17 PM »

I dunno Pat, I'm the one presenting evidence and knowing where to look for the music. I never professed expertise, I said I've simply studied it, there is a difference.

I can obviously play and teach the game of golf somewhat well, and I still look to expand my mind, I've in no way rested on my laurels in regards to that.

I retain the knowledge and use it. If I find it to be in error, I change it.

« **Reply #90 on:** March 13, 2005, 02:41:35 PM »

Pat, go to a performance of it and sit there with an original score. You'll find many changes from what is written to what is played.

It's altered all the time to fit the needs of the particular ensemble. There are arrangements out there for piano, violin, quartet... you name it. Just look up the sheet music.

« **Reply #91 on:** March 13, 2005, 02:57:53 PM »

Quote from: Kyle Harris on March 13, 2005, 02:41:35 PM

Pat, go to a performance of it and sit there with an original score. You'll find many changes from what is written to what is played.

That can be attributed to imperfection on the part of the performer.

Has the original score been altered ?

If so, when, and by whom ?[/color]

It's altered all the time to fit the needs of the particular ensemble. There are arrangements out there for piano, violin, quartet... you name it. Just look up the sheet music.
You continue to avoid the question.

Has the original score been altered ?

If so, when, and by whom ?

If you want to see an altered original, just look at ANGC.

Ask yourself, after the play of any given round, can the golf course be altered back to its original form/score ?[/color]

« **Reply #92 on:** March 13, 2005, 02:58:47 PM »

Okay, Pat... I'll play this game.

Define "Original Score"

« **Reply #93 on:** March 13, 2005, 03:03:12 PM »

So, how it was being played when he died? Or his last known actual writing of the piece?

We are between how it sounded and how it was written. I know this is very nebulous...

« **Reply #94 on:** March 13, 2005, 03:06:03 PM »

Kyle Harris,

The way Beethoven left it when he left.

How was it written ?

Playing it, like singing the National Anthem, is open to the interpretation of the performer.

Have the notes and the order of the notes been changed ?

If so, when, and by whom ?

« **Reply #95 on:** March 13, 2005, 03:08:33 PM »

Yes it has.

First off, some of the instruments popular during the time of Beethoven are no longer in use or have been modified by technology to the point where transposition was required. Second, there are multiple "original scores" kicking around by your definition. Are you saying that Beethoven was able to completely control how is works were being played in the world while he was alive? So, even by the time he left there were several versions.

« **Reply #96 on:** March 13, 2005, 03:22:51 PM »

Kyle Harris,

Quote from: Kyle Harris on March 13, 2005, 03:08:33 PM

First off, some of the instruments popular during the time of Beethoven are no longer in use or have been modified by technology to the point where transposition was required.

That's irrelevant.
Those are the instruments not the written music, the individual notes and their order.[/color]

Second, there are multiple "original scores" kicking around by your definition.

What's my definition ?
How many, COMPLETED, original scores existed at the same time ?[/COLOR]

Are you saying that Beethoven was able to completely control how is works were being played in the world while he was alive?

How the notes and their order were played is irrelevant.
It's how the notes were created and arranged.
Has that changed in the last 178 years ?
Has that changed since Beethoven's death ?
If so, when, and by whom ?[/color]

So, even by the time he left there were several versions.
No there weren't.
There was but one, Beethoven's.
The notes and their order remain today as they were left 178 years ago.

You just can't come to admit that the notes and their order have remained unchanged over the last 178 years.

That's a fact that you just can't cope with.[/color]

« **Reply #97 on:** March 13, 2005, 03:28:02 PM »

Pat,

The notes and their "order" have changed in the past 178 years.

How many completed and different scores existed? I dunno, his music was played in Vienna, London, Paris all while he was still alive... Think they just mailed one score back and forth?

Come on Pat, think a little three dimensionally here.

Out of curiosity, how are you defining score?

« **Reply #98 on:** March 13, 2005, 03:36:24 PM »

Kyle Harris,

Quote from: Kyle Harris on March 13, 2005, 03:28:02 PM

The notes and their "order" have changed in the past 178 years.

Who changed them, and when ?[/color]

How many completed and different scores existed? I dunno, his music was played in Vienna, London, Paris all while he was still alive... Think they just mailed one score back and forth?

No, they used telepathy.
How else do you think his score traveled the continent ?[/color]

Come on Pat, think a little three dimensionally here.

Out of curiosity, how are you defining score?

Like Webster and Oxford.[/color]

« **Reply #99 on:** March 13, 2005, 04:04:47 PM »

Patrick:

Rude of me to leave a question unaswered from the other night (see page 2), my apologies. You asked how I'd find these perfectly flat greens... Well, I have no answer: I've yet to play any. I'm guessing that doing so too often would make for putting that would be pretty boring, for sure. I doubt I'd call it mundane, because I also have no doubt I'd still miss a lot of putts, but I guess I have a different meaning of that word than you do.

David M. same goes to you, as well. As I read the definition of "mundane", and as I understand it from prior reading and the like, it does seem to me to have a quite stronger connotation than just "less interesting." If it does mean only what you say, then I agree with your assessment.

All the rest was me just trying to have some fun with this.

Sorry to divert from the VERY interesting musical analogies.

TH

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