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Rob_Waldron

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Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2005, 05:28:21 PM »
Matt

I have discussed Billy Casper Golf's courses with Peter and I believe that he "gets it". They provide management services to municipalities that may not have the proper internal structure to operate golf courses. You can feel the difference you step into a Billy Casper managed course versus a municipal self op.

My concern with programs like First Tee is that it creates unrealistic financial expections for new golfers. I am curious if the First Tee is tracking any retention figures.


Matt_Ward

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2005, 05:34:17 PM »
Lou:

You pulled a Clintonian word parsing -- the folks who run privately owned daily fee golf need a convenient punching bag to explain the slump they are facing. How nice of them to lump all of their concerns at the muni level.

Lou, Chris Schiavone mentioned at our Winter Conference that muni golf really has no place whatsoever on the golf scene. I respect Chris for his success but it's really laughable to think that if muni golf disappeared tomorrow that the folks operating daily fee golf would feel 'obligated' to provide golf for the masses. Maxing out the profit margin is the primary concern -- not introducing the game to those with less dollars in their pocket.

Muni golf faces inordinate challenges when being brought up by public officials -- particurlarly when other city services have been slashed. Going "out on a limb" with golf is not something that sails thru without major discussion and even lingering contention.

Lou, let me mention that in the case of the Alabama golf trail the influx of players will bolster the overall tourism situation in the State of Alabama. I look at that as a good thing. Clearly, the private side of the aisle wasn't exactly chomping at the bit prior to the "Trail" in developing first rate golf options for the traveling public golfer or those who live in the state.

Lou -- let me mention that if one were to take the "no public dollars" competing against private interests to its logical conclusion you might as well call for the end of public higher education. If the folks from Harvard and Yale can live with the competitoin with all the state supported schools I don't see any reason why those who embrace competition -- save when they are faced with it affecting their interests -- should not be able to handle what comes forward.

Joe Hancock

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Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2005, 06:07:25 PM »
the folks who run privately owned daily fee golf need a convenient punching bag to explain the slump they are facing. How nice of them to lump all of their concerns at the muni level.

Matt,

Who in the world are you talking of? Is there really folks out there blaming financial difficulty on municiply run courses, or do they simply cite the muni as a factor?

C'mon already.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Matt_Ward

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2005, 06:36:42 PM »
Joe:

Hold your horses and brimstone partner -- what I just stated is the feelings of one of the people who attended the just completed Winter Conference at Essex County CC on 2/19.

Chris Schiavone sees muni golf as a complete intrusion on the pure market forces that exist. According to Mr. Schiavone it is best if government had no role whatsoever on the golf scene.

One person who took a more measured view was Eric Bergstol / Empire Golf -- Eric opined that muni golf should be involved with course development as an introductory means to get people involved within the game. He went on to say that only at that level should muni golf be operating and away from what the CCFAD's and others of that ilk are attempting to do.

Joe -- if you had been at the conference you would have heard some interesting thoughts on this very subject.

Joe Hancock

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Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #79 on: February 24, 2005, 06:56:31 PM »
Matt,

My mistake. I took your opening sentence as your opinion. I didn't realize you were just passing on someone else's point of view on the issue.

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Lou_Duran

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Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2005, 07:16:26 PM »
Matt,

"You pulled a Clintonian word parsing"

Them is fightin' words!  At worse, just accuse me of being afflicted with a form of BAADDD (Bush adult atttention deficit disorder) that you all believe is not uncommon in flyover country.

I wonder if the U. of Texas had the same endowments per capita as Harvard, and received additional tax payer funds to attract the best students and professors at the expense of Harvard, whether that school would take it without a whimper.

Your analogy is silly anyways.  It is like comparing Shadow Creek to Tangle Ridge.  The former caters to a totally different market, much like Harvard does to say, Ohio State or UT.

Concerning the RTJ Trail, I do see some justification for it in terms of economic development in areas not likely to be served by the private sector.  I am not sure that using teachers' retirement funds was a good idea, nor whether the trustees had much choice.  Hopefully, whatever investment shortfalls are experienced, the state's general fund will take care of them.

Perhaps this is not true in your area, but the addition of three or four couses in an already tight market can spell disaster for the pre-existing facilities.  With no growth in rounds played, adding 200,000 rounds of inventory is not good for owners, and, in the long run, probably not for golfers either.  As I've already cited, government has had a big impact on the local market, though it is but one of several factors.

If I was king, government would not be involved in golf courses where the high season green fee is more than $20 (based on Texas as the standard cost of living).  All these courses would have coupon days for the less affluent, and they would also be required to provide controlled access to beginners regardless of the ability to pay.  Each would have a practice facility and learning center, even if I had to eliminate a couple of holes and shoe horn them in.  I would also encourage walking, pull carts, and nine hole rounds.

   

Matt_Ward

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #81 on: February 24, 2005, 07:40:05 PM »
Lou:

Let's be clear -- what's really silly is this idea that without muni golf the "private sector" would step into the breech and take care of Joe Sixpack and Mary Wineglass. That's laughable!

You created a canard with this idea that muni golf can stay at $20. Partner -- you need to step out and see what things costs these days. Frankly, I see no reason why muni golf can't be higher -- say a ceiling of $50 before it begins to intrude on the people looking to make a killing with the deeper pocket gang.

Lou -- my mentioning of higher education is completely appropriate. Why not just follow the same rationale and eliminate all public education and be totally dependent upon the private sector in developing plans for such an enterprise. I'll glue you in good buddy -- it would be a cold, cold day in hell before that ever happens. The boys with money don't want to waste their time with Joe Sixpack -- they simply want to cherry pick the Polo, Gucci crowd.

Government doesn't need to provide a Lexus model of golf courses. But let me point out that this idea that all public projects are "massaged through the approval process" in different ways than those from the priavte sector is simply untrue. I serve as a supervisor of a three-county soil conservation district and I know the managers of all the 16 areas in New Jersey -- the review process for all projects -- golf or not -- is no less rigorous and detailed.

Last item on Alabama -- the situation for that state was totally unique and in many ways a door opener for other golf related projects to follow. Let's be very clear -- prior to the Golf Trail I didn't see private operators chomping at the bit to get to the state. Quite the contrary. The Trail has made out quite well and I have yet to hear from any credible source that the money was not handled correctly for all the citizens of Alabama.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2005, 09:19:41 PM »
Matt,

While I don't want to get into a Mucci/Paul tit-for-tat with you on this matter, let me just say that your understanding of economics and government operations is considerably less than your knowledge of gca.

A private operator is going to charge what the market will bear.  So will a city that floated revenue bonds to finance its upscale golf course.  If people in sufficient numbers aren't willing to pay $40 green fees at Tierra Verde, the city will either lower the price or not sell as many rounds.  So, instead of achieving a break-even in the neighborhood of 38 - 40m rounds per year, the course did well in 2004 to sell 32m rounds.

Mansfield National, only a few miles away, not in the same caliber, but priced in the $20 to $30 range, did over 60m rounds.  It has something to do with what many government types have a hard time understanding, the laws of supply and demand.

There is price ilasticity at the segments of golf that government is now operating in.  From what I've seen, if public operations were forced to compete in the same environment as the private sector, it is doubtful that many would stay in business.

And if you believe that government has to go through the same hoops to get a project approved, well, either things in New Jersey are much different or somehow you guys have overcomed human nature.  Much of what takes place in P & Z is highly political.  Ditto for environmental regulations which are extremely fuzzy to begin with.  I've seen it happen in my real estate practice for 20 years here in Texas, and I have no reason to doubt that things work similarly elsewhere.  Professional courstesy is indeed practiced in the public sector.  It is also known as inter-departmental cooperation- you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.

Finally, isn't it hard to justify government involvement in golf when the participation rate is so small?  Just another example of public welfare for a bunch of white guys.  Take the money and build more basketball courts, baseball and soccer fields, swimming pools, and for other sports enjoyed widely and which the private sector does not sufficiently service.  

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2005, 10:09:30 PM »
Matt-
My guess is if the State of New Jersey initiated a taxpayer subsidized Golf Magazine and offered it below the cost of competing private magazines by using state employees to produce and print them that would be just fine. Even if they went after the same advertisers as the private competitors that'd be OK. The fact that this would be good for the sport would outweigh the fact that others have risked their private capital and employed people to start a business and maintain a livelihood.

Here in the St. Louis Metro area there's one high-end muni - Spencer T Olin (hosted the Publinks about 3 years ago). It was here before most of the competitors so I don't have a huge issue but it has been a whore recently, $25 all you can play with lunch. I'd hate to be competing with them.

Buck
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

DMoriarty

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #84 on: February 25, 2005, 02:16:03 AM »
If nothing else, this thread highlights the fact that the golf industry has absolutely no interest in what is good for golf.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2005, 02:16:49 AM by DMoriarty »

Sean_A

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Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #85 on: February 25, 2005, 03:25:11 AM »
Lou

I agree, the government should build more rec facilities, including golf if need be.  There is plenty of money floating around government hands (they take plenty of mine).  The problem is Americans don't know how to elect a fiscally responsible president.  Too busy talking about bombing them, inavade those folks, imprison that SOB, F... the Europeans, we can go it alone.  Politically, the country is bankrupt.  Hopefully when The Shrub is gone, the economy can get back on track and we won't have to worry if a muni is charging $25 or $50.  

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #86 on: February 25, 2005, 06:35:56 AM »
If nothing else, this thread highlights the fact that the golf industry has absolutely no interest in what is good for golf.

Elaborate, please?

The question I'd really like to be able to answer for myself is "What is good for golf?"

I have some opinions on this, but opinions are prone to change.

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #87 on: February 25, 2005, 08:03:35 AM »
DMoriarty,

Blanket statements tend to get most of us in hot water.  Questioning the direction and justifications for municipalities involvement in golf (and how that involvement has changed over the last 15 years) demonstrates a concern of those within the industry regarding decisions usually made by those outside the industry.  That's not an exclusive issue with government run entities.

Those in the golf industry tend to be at the mercy of those holding the money to "pay for things."  Those in the know can attempt to educate as much as possible, but in the end who has the power?  Your thoughts.

Ken

Matt_Ward

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #88 on: February 25, 2005, 09:45:22 AM »
Buck W:

Good try with the development of an idea that is close to home with the thought of having the State of New Jersey subsidize a golf magazine. By all means -- if the State believs they can move ahead with the idea be my guest. I don't fear competition like others do.

Buck -- you don't know the publishing world. If that was the case why not have the government create newspapers and the like -- run that "liberal" NY Times out of business?

The facts are quite opposite.

Buck -- my partner and I have put forward a publication of quality for 14 years against a range of outsiders. If the State of NJ wants to jump in and think they can do better by all means the tee is open.

Muni golf has a place because it provides an opening for the masses to get started. One of the most successful high-end daily fee owners Eric Bergstol of Empire Golf -- a company that thrives in the ultra competitive NY metro area -- endorsed the value of muni golf with affordable fees at our recently concluded Winter Conference in New Jersey. If Eric understands their value as a businessman it makes we wonder why others can't understand it too. I guess Eric is either too liberal, doesn't understand the business world as well as you and Lou or is simply out to lunch.

Lou:

Beg to differ with your absolute belief in the market system. The folks producing the CCFAD culture have no interest in growing the game by providing low green fee facilities. This is the same canard the home builders put forward with all their double-talk about government regulation PREVENTS them from producing affordable housing. The reality is that for the most part -- the folks handling the upscale daily fee courses don't want any competition and are using the muni as convenient punching bag because of their inability to understand the economics of supply and demand that groups like NGF goofed in assessing accurately.

In addition, for the most part, the high income course ownerships groups are simply interested in cherry-picking off those with the highest discretionary incomes.

My suggestion is a simple one -- why can't those who do provide golf to the masses work in some sort of collaborative manner. That would be a novelty.

 

Don_Mahaffey

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #89 on: February 25, 2005, 10:15:50 AM »
Matt, David
I have absolutly no problem with a muni course being developed where there is a need for affordable golf. My problem is the high end munis being developed throughout the SW and West. Do we really need munis that charge 100+ fees? You guys think that is good for the golf industry. And, make no mistake, munis have a huge advantage over private sector courses. They pay no property taxes, they buy at special govt program discounts and do not pay taxes, they often form quasi-muni entities so they have the tax and purchase options but aren't forced to hire public employees thus avoiding paying benefits usually given to public employees. They have the advantage of public financing and public monies to overcome operating shortfalls.
Affordable munis that grow the game are great, but munis developed to compete directly with other high end developments are not good for golf or the taxpayer.  
« Last Edit: February 25, 2005, 10:16:57 AM by Don_Mahaffey »

Matt_Ward

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #90 on: February 25, 2005, 10:18:54 AM »
Don:

Who's advocating $100+ muni golf?

Don -- please -- please -- read what I have written and the agreement I have stated upteen times in what Eric Bergstol --a major developer of courses in the NY metro area said at the recently concluded Winter Conference.

Allow me to put my own words in my mouth. ;)

Let's also be clear -- if muni golf disappeared tomorrow I frankly don't believe for a NY minute that the privately owned operators would give a rats ass about Joe Sixpack. It's simply cherry picking off the deepest pockets.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #91 on: February 25, 2005, 11:53:16 AM »
You can play my course as cheap, or cheaper than the muni's around me.......

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #92 on: February 25, 2005, 12:22:19 PM »
This has been a great thread to read!

As a golfer w/o much disposable income who teaches macroeconomics, there has been a LOT to think about.  I appreciate so many of you putting so much thought into your posts, and keeping the tone so civil.  Kudos from the audience...
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #93 on: February 25, 2005, 12:50:19 PM »
Matt,

I heard or read recently that our great thinkers can always conceptualize superior ways to organize our economy and culture than through markets and capitalism.  But for thousands of years, these same folks have not been able to put any of these into practice.  Theory and practice are two entirely different things.

I have no such notion that markets are either absolute or perfect.  Indeed, they are very messy, specially at the micro level.  However, for all their faults, they are just a whole hell a lot better than you, Sean, David, or me making decisions for the masses.

For the last time, I am not opposed to government getting involved in needed or desired services if the private sector is unwilling or unable to provide them.  This, of course, is predicated on government doing so only if it is done effectively and efficiently, AND that the costs are largely borne by those enjoying the benefit.  A few exceptions would be included in this last qualification, golf not being one of them.

I do think that in areas of extremely expensive land prices, highly affordable courses are not feasible.  Perhaps government can step in by streamlining the regulatory process, waiving all sorts of permit and impact fees, and otherwise open up lands without many higher alternative uses for development.  Joint-ventures with the private sector have been done in a number of places, often resulting in the developer agreeing to keep the green fees lower on area residents than the market would bear.

That is not the problem in many areas of the South and Southwest, yet we see government all over the place getting involved in the more snazzy segment.  From the standpoint of the cities and their employees, I can fully understand that it is a lot more fun building and working at an upscale facility than the traditional put-your-ball-in-the-tube muni.  I just don't believe it is a good deal for the taxpayer, the golfer in the long run, or the industry.

Sean A.,

I am a very big President Bush supporter, and couldn't disagree more with your comments.  My family is from northern Spain and my European cousins were saying ---k the USA 30 years ago.  Of course, like many of our domestic malcontents, the little bastards lived of my uncle's very productive teat and never knew hardship in their life.

Tio Julio would apologize for their ignorance and envy, and admit in private that the burr up the asses of many Europeans was wedged in by the knowledge that they once had what we have and they pissed it all away.  He also attributed the ill feeling to envy that a country with only two hundred years of history could become not only the leader of the world, but a constant reminder of the malaise of European socialism.  My uncle passed away some five years ago, but very fortunately for his family, he left their cupboards very well stocked.

So, Sean, without any offense directed at you personally, if Mr. Bush indeed says screw Europe (he doesn't resort to extreme vulgarity in public to express his sentiments and intellect ala Hillary, Kerry, et. al.), he is just mirroring what we've been getting from the Europeans for decades.  If it doesn't set well in Europe, being the sophisticated, culturally superior people that they purport to be, it should not come as a surprise that it hasn't played well here either.   As a person who knows both cultures fairly well, take it from me that the U.S. has no monopoly on arrogance and bad manners.  Not that we have an excuse, but at least we saved the Europeans' assess in two world wars, helped to rebuild their economies, and continue to provide them with defense so they don't have to pay for a larger military.   I guess that no good deed should go unpunished.

BTW, why is it that in the European utopia there are so few affordable courses?  For the most part, UK probably being the exception, why is golf only generally played by the well-to-do?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2005, 12:54:36 PM by Lou_Duran »

Matt_Ward

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #94 on: February 25, 2005, 03:53:24 PM »
Lou:

I'll cut to the chase -- I see muni golf having a very clear role -- if such courses charge up to $50 for a single unattached or unconnected course I have no problem with what they attempting to do. Muni golf welcomes new people to the game without bankrupting them before they get hooked.

If such fees are between $50 and $75 (for non-resident players) you then get into the grey zone for debate. Clearly, anything beyond $75 for unattached courses (that doesn't include Bethpage Black for you sticklers out there!) is then competing against the likes of those layouts that are privately owned daily fees.

Lou -- you need to come to New Jersey because even with some of the highest land prices in the USA there is affordbale golf through taxpayer owned layouts. You need to live in that particular jurisdiction but if one were to live in Monmouth, Morris and Somerset Counties you would be able to enjoy golf without taking out a second home loan to play.

I'd love for someone to show me how complete reliance on the cherished market place would provide affordable golf to the masses. I'm not buying it -- the folks who maximized the role of CCFAD are interested only in cherry picking those folks with the deepest pockets. They are very much aligned to the country club crowd and have really nothing to do with Joe Sixpack and his friends. There may be "access" but it's clearly paid for at premium rates.

Brent Hutto

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #95 on: February 25, 2005, 04:06:07 PM »
Matt,

Do you intend your cutpoints of $50 and $75 to be universally applicable or are you only talking about the area where you live?

I can't imagine that a $50 round of golf in Monmouth County, NJ is the same commodity as a $50 round of golf in Richland County, SC and in Lou's home county in TX and in some county in the middle of Iowa. Or maybe there's some principle of universality of $50 green fees that has previously escaped my attention.

Matt_Ward

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #96 on: February 25, 2005, 04:10:42 PM »
Brent:

I think my use of dollar figures is no different than what Digest does in itemizing what it considers to be affordable golf ($50 or less) and upscale (any amount beyond that).

Brent, the amount charged in many places in USA is not dependent upon being in the "big city" -- there are many places in my "neck of the woods" (the one with the most people and per capita incomes like the NY metro area) that still charge low amounts and conversely I can name places that have the reverse situation and the fees are much higher than many might envision even though they are off the beaten trail.

If you don't like my numbers please knock yourself out and throw forward your own. ;D

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #97 on: February 25, 2005, 04:13:27 PM »
Plenty of courses you can walk for $20 or less in my parts, most of 'em non-muni.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #98 on: February 25, 2005, 04:18:21 PM »
I have my doubts whether the golf newbies are willing to shell out $50 for each self-taught playing lesson they endeavor.

Show them the door to the $25 courses and leave the Golf Digest criteria in the magazine.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Brent Hutto

Re:What is the Role of Municipal Golf????
« Reply #99 on: February 25, 2005, 04:21:58 PM »
Matt,

I don't disagree with your particular numbers. What I disagree with is the concept of a range of prices defining the proper role of government-paid-for as opposed to privately-paid-for golf courses.

If a county-owned course charges some particular price, they are competing with existing and potential privately-owned courses that would charge that price. A cheap muni competes with cheap private courses. A $50 or $75 muni competes with similarly-priced commercial courses. There's no magic number at which what they're doing suddenly becomes something other than competing with commercial enterprises targeting the same price point.