Tom,

You answered my question with about Colt's pay with, "Colt, MacKenzie and Alison's scale of professional charges and conditions of agreement...which follow the scale created by Royal Institute of British Architects. Why?"

The reason I asked this is because at that time, teens and twenties, American architects were negotiating their pay on a per course basis.

For example, in the early twenties, just a short time after finishing Baltusrol and being at the height of his fame, and therefor ability to demand commission for work, Tillinghast's contract for doing two courses at Baltimore's Five Farms (the second course was cancelled later) states this:

“My minimum fee for eighteen holes is Three thousand dollars. I see nothing to warrant any addition to this and consequently I will agree to make detailed plans for thirty-six holes… acting in a general advisory capacity until both courses are ready for play, visiting the grounds from time to time as may be necessary to produce courses which will be satisfactory to you and myself, for six thousand dollars and expenses incidental to travel and lodging…”

This is after stating that, "While it is difficult to estimate accurately the probable cost of construction, I am of the opinion that it will not exceed one hundred thousand dollars each…”    

At $3,000 per course, and with each one estimated at approximately $100,000, Tilly was looking at getting paid at the rate of 3% of the project value. Often he was getting far less than this, and he was among the most prolific of designers.

I am not personally aware of the facts of what PV cost and who got paid what, but I felt that the percentages didn't make sense based upon what I know about Tillinghast. I would think that Crump, as a businessman of the day, would be well aware of what the average architectural fees were in his day.

I may be assuming incorrectly on this, and if so, would like to get the general facts & those specific to Pine Valley correct.

Thanks

"I may be assuming incorrectly on this, and if so, would like to get the general facts & those specific to Pine Valley correct."

Phil:

As far as that $10,000 fee from Colt you should know according to Jim Finegan who wrote the latest history book on PVGC that that fee was first heard of in the 1950s (40 years after the fact) from Crump's old friend Joe Bole (the man he went to Europe with in 1910 to study architecture, among other things). There is no actual accounting at PVGC or from Crump's side on a $10,000 design fee to Colt. As far as I can tell no one who knows a lot about Colt has ever heard of that either. I guess he paid him something but there certainly were a number of other professional architects around who collaborated at PVGC and didn't get paid. These would include Travis, Tillinghast, Toomey and Flynn and Perry Maxwell! Of course there were the usual well-known amateur architects contributing too such as Thomas, Fownes and possibly even Macdonald.

"I know Alan Wilson was a member of PV, was Hugh Wilson?"

Hugh Wilson was a green chairman there!

"Are you referring to a comment over the 2nd hole?"

Tom, a whole lot more than that. Instead of just asking me endless questions about PVGC why don't you study those topos and all the other available material by just trying to get to PVGC at some point and study the course and it's creation? Without doing that some day you're never really going to figure this stuff out.

TE
Thanks. I'll take that under advisement.  

"Are you aware of any other Tillinghast design contracts that work out to these type of percentages."

Phil
No not really, but weren't we talking about Colt and PV?

The Hermitage source is their club history and it does not mention a percentage, that was my calculation. I understand your point.

Phil;

PVGC under the direction of George Crump was probably somewhat of a different case and perhaps not easily or appropriately compared to the design and construction of other courses.

First of all, the extent of architectural collaboration at PVGC was probably never remotely matched on another course in the history of golf. Secondly, although parts of the course were opened sequentially, there's no question at all that Crump was very much taking his time completing the course. A number of holes were not completed almost 8 years after the construction began and it's undeniable that Crump had sometimes rather elaborate plans to go back and change a number of holes that had been opened for play. Hence his well-known response when asked when he might finally complete the course---eg "NEVER!" (one of the true ironies of the #1 course in the world is there is (and was for quite some time) a lot about it still today that Crump himself considered to be "temporary"!!).

Why was that (the unique extent of architectural collaboratin)? Probably a lot of it had to do with a unique aspect of the original "Philadelphia School of architecture", at least how it centered around the creation of PVGC. Most of those Philly School" architects were amateur architects anyway (Crump, Wilson, Thomas, Fownes) who never took a dime for anything they did in architecture.

A good deal of this perhaps had to do with questions of amateur status around the time of PVGC's creation---a problem that eventually effected Tillinghast and Travis.

One should realize that the so-called professional architects in and around that time---eg Tillinghast, Travis, Toomey, Flynn, or even later Perry Maxwell who did architectural work there later apparently were not paid by Crump or later PVGC. Basically they appear to have been Crump's friends and did it for that reason or were simply made members as were Toomey, Flynn and Perry Maxwell!

Did PVGC ever pay an architect? Perhaps. We've heard of this payment to Colt in 1913 although the amount of it and the source of the information of it certainly has been questioned. Did they pay Alison for his work in 1921? Perhaps. The estimated cost of doing his recommendations that were approved by the 1921 Advisory Committee was $6,500 to which a $1,000 fee would be added for Alison that included his 'superinetendency'. The matter went to the board for approval but it doesn't appear that Alison did that 'superintendency'---it appeared it was done by William Flynn, Merion (the Wilson), "in-house" with Jim Govan (the pro, superintendent and Crump's constant on-site foreman and "shot tester") perhaps with the assistance of member George Thomas who apparently returned from the West Coast and some of the recommendations or alterations were later carried out by Perry Maxwell who stated he would not charge the club for any architectural work he did there (he was a member).

(It even appears that to this day that ''no-fee" architectural collaboration continues at PVGC. Tom Fazio, Rees Jones, Ben Crenshaw, at least, belong to the club (and I've certainly seen Pete Dye there socially) and it appears no professional architectural fees have ever been asked or charged by any of them. Matter of fact, Tom Fazio is on the board of directors of PVGC!)

TE
How famous was Colt in the United States in 1913? If Crump needed a famous name why not invite Macdonald to lend his name to the project a la Merion. Macdonald was a much bigger name in the States, and the NGLA was the premier course in the country.

Why did Crump need a big name? I haven't seen any evidence PV was having difficulty attracting members, just the opposite.

Alison wasn't exactly a house hold name in 1921 either. He had been a club secretary before WWI. It appears to me the reason they hired Alison was the same reason they did just about every thing after Crump's death...there was great effort to follow his wishes, and one can presume they believed bringing back Colt & Co. would have been Crump's wish.

Tom MacWood:

Where did I say Crump or PVGC NEEDED a big name? Where do you get this stuff. All I said is in my opinion the members I know at Pine Valley who know about Colt consider that he was probably one of the very best professional architects in the world at that time. Those who know the modus operandi of the early Philly amateur architects, particularly Crump and Wilson know they went to Europe to study architecture and its principles in Scotland and particularly the English Heathlands. Where was Colt from? The Heathlands. They both obviously saw the Heathland courses including his.

I don't think we need to make too much out of all this. Apparently some around the Delaware Valley (Seaview, Merion East and PVGC perhaps even Sunnybrook heard Colt was in Canada or was going to be there and probably just got him down here because of that). When architects such as Maxwell, or RTJ or even Fazio were around here at various times various clubs found out about it and called on them if they felt they needed something or some advice. That's probably just the way it went at PVGC in 1913 too, and perhaps with Alison in 1921.

I just noticed in one of the "agronomy letters" that in Nov or Dec of 1920 Hugh Wilson was at PVGC with Alison. Alison wanted to know about various agronomy issues from Piper and Oakley and arranged to go down to Washington and meet with them and with Flynn. Shortly thereafter Alison even proposed that he form a partnership with Flynn.

There was a lot of collaboration going on in those days, particularly in Philadelphia.

Macdonald? I cant see that Crump exactly took to Macdonald. It may've been Macdonald who coigned the term "Crump's Folly" for PVGC. He came down to look at it early and said his famous; "It could be a great golf course if Crump could figure out how to get grass to grown there" (pretty much straight sand). I guess Macdonald knew whereof he spoke (NGLA). It's quite certain that Crump must not have listened to him (if Macdonald even mentioned the agronomic similarity to NGLA) as Pine Valley had the same kind of massive "growing medium" and "binding" and "water retention" problems ten years after Macdonald and NGLA went through all that---problems that the Wilsons, Flynn and Govan fixed in 1919-1920-1921.

You said;

"appears to me the reason they hired Alison was the same reason they did just about every thing after Crump's death...there was great effort to follow his wishes, and one can presume they believed bringing back Colt & Co. would have been Crump's wish."

There's no question whatsoever they were trying to follow Crump's wishes---everything following his death and certainly the formation and work of the so-called "1921 Advisory Committee" highlights and mentions that fact. But as far as hiring Alison because they understood that Crump wished Colt to return, there's no evidence I know of about that with one possible exception. I may take a look at the archives shortly but there is this from the recent Finegan PVGC history book (the one you and Paul have mentioned attempts to minimize Colt for not mentioning his part in PVGC more) that may shed some light on something within the archives of PVGC to that effect; Finegan said;

"The other three members of the committee (other than Fownes) were Simon Carr, Joe Bole, of Cleveland, and non-member Hugh Alison, representing Harry Colt and the firm of Colt, Mackenzie and Alison".

I have no idea if Finegan just happened to say it that way or if there's something within the PVGC archives he was almost quoting from to that effect.

But all of this, in my opinion, only goes to prove that PVGC the club, it's members, and Crump's friends and others in and around Philadelphia who knew and know PVGC and admire and admired Crump so much never had one damn thing against Colt or Alison in the manner of trying to minimize Colt (or Alision) which you and Paul Turner have been vociferously saying they all did for about the last year or two. So much so that you stated or implied to me that the club, members and his friends attempted to glorify Crump at Colt's expense because he shot himself! While apparently simultaneously creating some fictitious story that he died of a tooth abscess.

Maybe now you two are beginning to see the light---and hopefully the truth of the way things happened in and arcound PVGC during Crump's life and following it.

Wayne:

I think it's about time we both stop listening to and certainly responding to some of these outlandish presumptions, assumptions or conclusions that Tom MacWood seems to come to about Crump, Wilson, PVGC, Merion East and basically the "Philadelphia School of Architecture" and the Philadelphia golf region generally.

I had to have to say it again but he's never even been here, never laid eyes on either of these golf courses and probably knows no one in either of them and probably never has. Why does a guy like this think he can research and come to any accurate conclusions if he hasn't at least been here to these places? No wonder his musings are wrong, ridiculous and certainly should stop!

"Wayne:

I think it's about time we both stop listening to and certainly responding to some of these outlandish presumptions, assumptions or conclusions that Tom MacWood seems to come to about Crump, Wilson, PVGC, Merion East and basically the "Philadelphia School of Architecture" and the Philadelphia golf region generally."

I am in complete agreement.  It takes a lot of time and effort to research this material and seemingly even longer to try and convince Tom MacWood of anything.  My conclusion is that it is a waste of time.  I post now and then in response to Tom MacWood's conclusions, especially when they seem so erroneous.  But I am not trying to convince him of anything so much as hoping that just because he comes up with some conclusion or "proof" that it is not taken for granted by others that it is true.  

I've been writing quite a bit lately and get far more enjoyment out of seeing that work progress than I ever would making headway convincing a certain persimmon head in Ohio    Hint. Hint  

Pat
Alison was Colt's partner and representative in America in the 1920's. The last trip Colt made outside Europe was in 1913. If you were in America and wanted a Colt design, you got Alison.

I assume the folks at PV were quite comfortable with Alison, he had come over 1903 with the Oxford & Cambridge Society and had competed with a number of Philadelphia golfers including Tilly and WP Smith.

"TE
Historically PV's position on Colt has been he should be credited for the 5th hole. IMO that is minimizing his role."

Tom:

I think I've told you this on here a number of times now but I'll tell you again. Historically, that's not really the case. That story about Colt recommending that #5's green be taken all the way up to where it is now is a famous story and undoubtedly very true.

Having just been able to really analyze that first stick routing the other day due to finally being able to see the details of the hole numbers and such it is pretty obvious to me why that Colt story on #5 is so famous.

It looks like that recommendation set into motion a series of routing decisions and events that very likely took place out there when Colt and Crump were together for that week or two in 1913. And it looks like that one decision on #5 is the thing that probably set it all off.

Basically it stopped Crump from trying to go over the ridge towards #10 green for his 6th hole or obviously in another Crump iteration for #6 (shown to Tillinghast and written about by Tillinghast before Colt arrived) of going over the other ridge on present #6 from way below it (where Crump had a short par 3 5th) to a par 5 green site at the present #6 green(#8 on Crump's stick routing).

The point of all this is neither Warner Shelly nor Jim Finegan who wrote the two PVGC history books in the last 20 or so years understood how that all played out in a routing and design sense. The reason they didn't understand that is at that point no one understood the red and blue lines on the topo in the front room and obviously no one tried to compare the topo in the superintendent's office that's very likely Crump before Colt arrived. Plus, obviously Finegan made an innocent but major research mistake of assuming the date on the topo in the front room was the date Crump finished the routing. That date was before Colt ever arrived at PVGC and it happened to be the surveyor's date!!

So they simply didn't know then the things we know now. So those two history books are the first time Colt's part in PVGC began to be minimized by PV.

Previous to that most members who concerned themselves with this kind of thing believed that Colt at least routed the whole course or even routed and designed it and that Crump spent the next 4-5 years building the course to those specs.

The reason most thought that (before the two history books) is that most were aware of Colt's hole by hole design booklet sitting in the archives but before the two history books no one had ever really looked carefully at that hole by hole design booklet to see if the particulars of it looked that much like the particulars of the way the course was actually built.

When Shelley and Finegan finally analyzed that booklet carefully they found it didn't look that much like the particulars of the holes on the course and that's what they both said---at very separated times and independently. Shelley lived at PVGC for decades and Finegan has been a member for decades and both know or knew that course like the back of their hand. So for them to say the details of the holes don't look all that much like the details of the course I tend to believe them (I think they both said there were more differences than similarities).

There's no real reason for you to call what they said into question, most particularly, and again, because you've never even laid eyes on that golf course. You simply don't know it as they do (did in the case of Shelly) and to try to pretend you do somehow simply because you think your such a great golf architecture researcher really just doesn't cut it! That's what I'd like those on here, including yourself, to fully understand! And I really do wish you would and could begin to understand that without automatically taking umbrage towards me or anyone else! To truly understand what's been talked about here that's completely necessary, in my opinion---that you really do become familiar with the details of the golf course. Frankly just looking at it once or twice or thrice would probably not do---you have to become as familiar with the details of it on the ground as they were--or I am now.

Why do I know that so many members felt Colt either routed or designed that course and Crump spent 4-5 years building it to those routing and design specs? Because over the years I've probably gotten to know a 100 or more members of PVGC and that's what they thought (before those two history books).

Lastly, none of them that I ever met had the slightest problem or concern with that. They all seemed quite proud of the architectural name of Harry Colt! But all of them were aware that Crump spent practically every day on that course for almost six years. What they never understood, in my opinion, is the details of what Crump did and Colt didn't do!

Now we do understand those things and hopefully in the not too distant future the club will too as well as its members that concern themselves with this kind of architectural thing!

Of course there're others like John Ott who understood Crump did more but he's lived there for over 30 years and is extremely interested in the details of the architecuture and he just knew more than most all of them. But he never knew as much as we do now. This he has told me a number of times recently. Mayor Ott has no axe to grind against Colt--he's a fair and objective man. Just ask anyone who knows him. Ask Tommy Nacarrato.

So I really do wish you'd try to learn something here instead of just continually claiming;

'IMO PVGC has historically minimized Colt's role'.

Are you ever going to listen to the things some of us have to say and begin to believe them or are you always just going to think and imply you know more or something that's going to expose some big dark secret why PVGC tried to minimize Colt?

Wayne
When you say Alison asked Flynn to go into business with him, I interpret that as establishing a business relationship with a expert in construction. Similar to MacKenzie and Wendell Miller or Tillinghast and Peter Lees or Colt and William Murray or Alison and George Penglase. I would think one of the first moves a foreign architect would make would be to secure a competent constructor, and obviously Flynn fit that bill. I don't know about Toomey.

TE
You don't have to go over the chain of events, I'm aware of how it developed. I actually believe Shelley gave more credit to Colt than Finegan did. To his credit, WS also understood the map hanging at PV was a Crump and Colt creation.