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Matt_Ward

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #75 on: December 17, 2004, 11:59:42 AM »
Let me just say this regarding ratings -- yes, at the end of the day it's subjective and clearly opinionated. So far -- so good

But ...

The opinions formed, I would respectfully, suggest come from:

*A depth of courses actually played -- not just from second hand accounts or photos alone IMHO. You also need to have people who have played a wide swath of courses from across the nation -- not just regionally. This allows for some sort of cross comparison assessment. Keep in mind I used the word "depth" of courses played -- not just simply some mathematical number of total courses visited.

*Insightful analysis -- not just the "a" is better than "b: course. People need to delve into the minutia to ferret out the details.

The currency of the information must be timely -- assuming a course is still great from a round played 10 or more years ago can be stretching it a bit as things can and do change. You also have newer competitors who come onto the scene.

No doubt -- people feel strongly about Wild Horse and I concur it has so much to talk about. However -- time doesn't stand still and there are a number of unique and exciting layouts few people ever speak about here on GCA. Their personal lmitation in travel should not prevent new information / assessments from coming to the table.

People tend to ratify what they know -- clearly -- it's what they don't know that others may know can often make such exercise like this one a difficult result.

John is right -- opinions are clearly the right of the person throwing them forward -- show me the work that goes behind it and it's likely the weight of those opinions will have some real standing.

THuckaby2

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #76 on: December 17, 2004, 12:00:07 PM »
JK has me nailed again.

You're easily nailable.


That's what all the chicks in college used to say.
 ;D ;D ;D

JakaB

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #77 on: December 17, 2004, 12:13:09 PM »
I have to apologize to my good friend Jim Kennedy for not including The Hotchkiss Course sooner.....it is a drop dead lock being a Raynor design stategically abundant in can't wait to get there or back condition....btw..whose super is CJS worthy....

Come on people search the backwoods and lets get 71 more before George exersises his veto power...

CHrisB

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #78 on: December 17, 2004, 12:49:25 PM »
Delaware Springs Muni in Burnet, TX by Axland & Proctor, profiled here on GolfClubAtlas:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/Delaware_Springs000221.html

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #79 on: December 17, 2004, 01:50:49 PM »
The Dunes at Seville by Art Hills deserves a mention here. It's $30.00 after 1:00 in season, Hot dogs are $2.00. And it has some great minimalist holes. It's off the beaten path so it's not crowded, every body who goes up there to play goes to World Woods, but Dunes is fantastic.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Mike_Cirba

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #80 on: December 17, 2004, 02:09:32 PM »
Oh hell, there are a lot of wonderful little cheap backwoods courses.  Off the top of my head let me mention;

Bonneville in Utah
Mount Pleasant in Maryland
Coronado in California
Bass River in Massachusetts
Mark Twain in NY
Soaring Eagles in NY
Bayou Oaks in LA

I could go on...it's just than none of them are actually better than Wild Horse.

JakaB

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #81 on: December 17, 2004, 03:27:18 PM »
Hell, I'll weigh in on the fun...

We hopped the fences at both Oakland Hills and Butler National several years ago and all it cost was the price of gas to and from.

So there are two more to add to the list!

D,

Half the people on this board rarely pay...including me.  So those two don't count...It's not what we pay that matters...it's the little people.   For instance...I remember being comped at Purgatory (One of Wards nominations) but I seem to recall that the place was pricey in my opinion...Cirbaesque so to speak..

Mike_Cirba

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #82 on: December 17, 2004, 03:30:13 PM »
Cirbaesque?

As someone who has faithfully tithed at least 20% of my earnings to the golf gods over the years (and I didn't spend it on equipment), I resemble that comment, John.   :-[

Brian_Gracely

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #83 on: December 17, 2004, 03:31:13 PM »
Hell, I'll weigh in on the fun...

We hopped the fences at both Oakland Hills and Butler National several years ago and all it cost was the price of gas to and from.


Oakland Hills North or South?  I used to have a night-time membership on the North, so maybe we should compare notes some time.

Brian_Gracely

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #84 on: December 17, 2004, 03:47:54 PM »
DCronan,

When were you a night-time member on the South Course?  I'm surprised we never crossed paths at the member-guest ;)

And do they call them "Party Stores" anywhere else in the country other than Michigan?  We used to pick up Old Milwaukee at the Tip Top Party Shop in Royal Oak.

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #85 on: December 17, 2004, 03:48:55 PM »
Barney -

Isn't Hotchkiss a nine hole course . . don't tell me that truncated links are eligible here . . . there's no comparison . . . two times nine holes ain't a round of golf and you know that it never will be . . .
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

JakaB

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #86 on: December 17, 2004, 03:55:08 PM »
Hotchkiss has nine greens but that hardly makes it a nine hole course....I need to research the little nine greener that Mike K built up north....I'm sure its better than Wild Horse but I don't know about the affordablility factor..

Brian_Gracely

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #87 on: December 17, 2004, 03:56:20 PM »
Hotchkiss has nine greens but that hardly makes it a nine hole course....I need to research the little nine greener that Mike K built up north....I'm sure its better than Wild Horse but I don't know about the affordablility factor..

Dunes Club is private.  

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #88 on: December 17, 2004, 08:32:22 PM »
Unfortunately I have been busy all day and haven't gotten to this thread soon enough to be first in line to barbeque Kavanaugh's fat ass. ;D ::)  Barney is the master bomb thrower of all time.  He lives for the sport of throwing out bloody chum and see who takes the bait.  

The truth is Barney in your totally ignorant (I mean that in the best sense of your not knowing shiite from shinola about turf management ;)) the two superintendents you are trying to sponsor for the super-gladiator games would both be laughing their asses off at your jock strap remark.  I know them both and count them among the truly great people I have met in the turf management game, and both would be exactly correct when they would both tell you simultaneously that the other guy is better. ;D 8)

As for Matt Ward's opinions; hell he makes a living of golf course evaluative publishing of the New Jersey Golfer (or lives to make a publishing of evaluating golf courses).  He's seen plenty.  And, at the end of that day, his opinion is just as valid as a fellow who may actually build great golf courses yet who hasn't actually seen or played half of the courses Matt has, nor plays as prodigiously long and well.  

So Matt, where does that leave us?  You got your list, others have theirs.  And, we all enjoy what we are lucky enough to get around to.  Your comments are knowledgeable and stated with examples which I think we all appreciate.  I just might disagree on some of the evaluation like that of Sutton Bay or your camparative evaluation of WH based on your particular criteria.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2004, 08:33:06 PM by RJ_Daley »
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Matt_Ward

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #89 on: December 18, 2004, 12:00:47 PM »
RJ:

Touche' !!!

I've got nothing against people having opinions -- my only point was that sometimes "buzz" begets a reaffirmation of "buzz" among certain courses while at the same time a good number of other outstanding and viable courses fly below the radar screen and are not talked about, if at all -- see Devil's Thumb, Red Rock, The Trophy Club, etc, etc.

The courses I mentioned that are superior to Wild Horse are well done efforts -- unfortunately -- a good number of people here on GCA have not played them and simply fall back on the predictable let's just mention the limited courses we have played and with that the same courses are touched upon by others who have done likewise.

RJ -- you're right -- people have their lists but lists need to be updated and added to in order to be current. Many people here simply don't have the time and wherewithal to add, delete or amend their listing. What generally happens is that people continually extol what's already on their list, but the research on future situations simply is not pursued as rigorously as what others do.

RJ -- you disagree with my take on Sutton Bay / routing so be it. You also take issue with my "criteria" on Wild Horse, but until you have played the examples I have provided who do you know your opinion is really airtight as you claim? Sometimes people absolutely refuse to have an open mind. I'm not saying that applies to you. Maybe it's just that certain people simply can't update their portfolio and indifferently cement themselves into thinking that what they know now is forever and won't be topped by something else.

If people want to keep their universe small -- so be it.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #90 on: December 18, 2004, 12:41:49 PM »
Matt, the only problem I have with your analysis is that you seem to take the 'master of the universe' approach in that one's highest credibility factor in analysing golf courses is to experience them all.  That is fine for the fellow that has unlimitted resources and can extoll the glories of the life of the intrepid golfer, rater, commentarian.  And, that is some darn good criteria and depth of experience to rely upon. But, there are some very sharp and savvy people out there that comment on GCA that don't get to see them all, so to speak, that actually build or design them or seriously participate in that activity, and see things you miss, IMHO.  I'm not going to name them, because this isn't a personality contest.  But, there are some very likely suspects most regulars here on GCA know who I mean.  Both you and they have claim to as much authority and credibility to evaluate, regardless of the courses played count, I believe.

I also think that the intrepid life on the road of GCA evaluation might tend to have a "drive-by rating" syndrome where a one time play, and move on to another course the same day or next, for a series of many, might lead to too high of an impact on first impressionism, not really seeing enough of what is there.  Subtlety can hardly reveal itself on one go- around.  Thus, on a one-time-one-play evaluation where one pronounces superior, a certain course that has many excellent qualities to another course with many excellent qualities is a fine line to walk, IMHO.

One can always say that if one did not play all the courses named by you above as being better than WH, then one doesn't have credibility or standing to make pronouncements.  I for one always try to not make the pronouncement that something I have played is better than something I haven't, within obvious rational bounds of similar categories of quality design.  Yet, I haven't played some courses that I have seen photos of, and have absolutely no reservations of saying some particularly mediocre course is not up to WH's standards on various counts.  Some things are just obvious.

But, in the context we are speaking of, I personally have seen some courses you have seen and have commented on.  Usually I see your points on them and generally agree.  But, I do also see that we come at evaluating from slightly differing tastes and criteria, mostly related to playing ability, what I interpret as your higher priority for a green with little mystery or unexpected results on the approach, and for some reason, I think distance may be higher on your list. ;) ;D  I remember your praise of Lost Canyons, and after playing it, didn't find it quite as praise worthy as you did, not just because it was angularly difficult with little forgiveness in several areas where decent tee shots simply ran out of room, but because it was a bit of architorture off tees that I simply wouldn't want to play very often at all. (desire to return over and over is right at the top of my list of criteria).  The cart rides would get boring, the greens were not that interesting, and the angles had a sameness about them.  But, at least we evalute them as we see them.  You have a bigger microphone, and do a good job with it.  

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #91 on: December 18, 2004, 12:56:20 PM »
Brian & D Cronan

What's the problem. You two above drinkin' Altes, the king of $5 cases (including deposit)?  I have shanked a few midnighters on The South Course.  This would be about 1980-'82.  

Are the folks up there in Watertucky related to the fine residents of Taylortuckee or Ypsituckee?

I have never played any of the courses you folks are writing about, I probably won't either.  Which courses in Michigan are as good as this quasi-list for the same cash?

I have played Bull Run in Virginia (the one not too far from WDC), it was alright, nothing to write home about.  The same for a course in Maryland, I don't recall the name.  Queenstown or some such nonsense.  It's across the bridge on the far shore.  I would take Leslie Park in Ann Arbor or Faulkwood Shores or Hunters Ridge (both out near Fentonish) for about $30.  All good value.  But, as I say, I have no idea how they compare with all these new tracks all over God knows where.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #92 on: December 18, 2004, 04:29:48 PM »
DCronan

Perhaps you have higher standards than myself.  Hence the choice of Strohs over a very fine session brew.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Matt_Ward

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #93 on: December 18, 2004, 04:33:58 PM »
RJ:

Let me correct you on a few points you erroneously claimed were mine.

I am a big fan of the Sky Course at Lost Canyons -- I have said so a number of times. I am not a fan whatsoever of the companion 18 Shadow.

Let me also repeat something you gloss over -- if a person has a sampling size of 100 courses versus someone say with 300 or 400 and assuming their analysis is a draw I'd say the person with the greater sampling size is going to have a bigger base of courses to compare and contrast. That's just simple logic.

Look, if someone says they can't play a wide range of courses -- for whatever the reasons -- how should that take away from those who do? Life is not fair or equal. There are people who have played tons more than I have and guess what I don't bitch about that fact -- I hope to learn something from their comments.

I never said you have to experience "all of the courses" but I do believe those individuals who do personally sample them have a major advantage when compared to those who don't.

RJ -- I never said my opinion is infallible -- but let me also mention that others who have played far less have lesss personal research to back up their claims. No doubt people will point out certain elements I miss -- bear in mind there are times when I point out things they fail to see.

RJ -- another error is this thought of the one-time drive-by analysis. There are a number of courses I have returned too in a wide swath of areas in the United States. Sometimes the return visit reaffirms what I thought -- sometimes it goes up and sometimes it goes down. I try to keep an open mind because if I have learned anything in course evaluation it's the understanding that things / courses can and will change.

RJ -- I dont have your "gift" to proclaim the obvious from second hand sources. I salute you for such a talent -- I prefer the old fashioned tried and true method -- the firsthand experience.

RJ - the "buzz" on Wild Horse is definitely worth saluting. However, I stand by what this thread is about -- naming inexpensive courses that are equal or greater to Wild Horse. They do exist. If people don't believe me then they can revel in their small world and go from there. I love Wild Horse -- I'm just not going to say it's the forever be-all / end-all when my personal experiences over the years have told me to not issue such blanket assertions.

I do agree with you -- making returns to a golf course clearly indicates a course of some staying power. On that point we are aligned 100%.



 

Brian_Gracely

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #94 on: December 18, 2004, 06:44:13 PM »
How many rounds a year does WH get?

How many months of the year is it open?

Do they offer any membership rates, and if so, what is the initiation and what are the dues?  Are they the same in open and closed months?

A_Clay_Man

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #95 on: December 18, 2004, 06:45:10 PM »
I've tried to read every word on this thread and I believe Mike Cirba said it best, when he extolled the virtues of the type of golf WH presents. George says the same thing, but he uses the Rawls course as his example. Both these courses present a playability that is founded in an almost complete lack of shot dictation. I assume RC is similar. This seems to be the major contention, or difference, between the differing opinions. Either that, or it could be the process used to determine greatness. If you write down after golfing a hole how great it was, then reflect back on the course only using the x's and o's, the chances are you won't find too many WOW holes at these non-dictating designs. And that's how subtlety, and breather holes, get crowded-out, of some expert's analysis.  
« Last Edit: December 18, 2004, 06:46:36 PM by Adam Clayman »

Matt_Ward

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #96 on: December 19, 2004, 01:00:36 PM »
Adam:

Wild Horse is to be rightfully celebrated because of what it indeed offers. Ditto The Rawls Course.

But you failed to understand the point I made. There are holes at each of the two courses where the qualities are less so than the others there IMHO. This thread was started with a desire to list courses as inexpensive and unique in design that surpass that of Wild Horse. I'm not speaking about difficulty -- I'm speaking about a seemless quality where the level of detail and character is kept at a slightly higher and more consistent level throughout the entire round.

Unfortunately, because certain people don't have the personal visits to other unique and exciting designs in the USA as others, it is easy -- in fact -- predictable -- people then hunker down and proclaim it's not possible or unlikely other courses exist in the USA with a modest green fee and still have a superior design than the layout in Gothenburg.

Adam -- you mention the word "playability" and I agree it's something that needs to be analyzed for any course to be considered given what Wild Horse presents. I believe the candidates I mentioned provide that at an equal or higher level. And, I also believe that the really outstanding layouts I have mentioned are simply flying "below the radar screen" for most people because they have not had the benefit in playing them.

Rick Phelps work at Devil's Thumb in Delta, CO is outstanding stuff -- given the vast limitations of budget and the maddening situations encountered with the site. But, since the layout is relatively isolated and doesn't have a "big brother" design nearby (Sand Hills) it can be easily overlooked. Rick also doesn't have the 'cache' of a person like Tom Doak to drive people to one of his sites such as his layout in Lubbock.

Rick provided a seemless design where the fairway widths -- the scale of the bunkering and the unique nature of many of the greens is extremely well done and worthwhile of national praise. It is the kind of course Joe Sixpack can play no less than what you find in Gothenburg. I salute the folks at Digest for selecting the course the 2nd best affordable behind Rustic Canyon two years ago.

It's not about assessing courses through a "WOW' formula as you state. It's the totality of what is there. Sometimes the courses with less consistency / greatness attempt to be of the "less is more" minimalism school, but the reality can often be a "less is less" outcome in certain holes or parts of the layout.

I don't crowd out or minimize "breather holes" -- I do crowd out courses with inferior holes when held up against other courses for comparison purposes. That doesn't mean a course like Wild Horse is less so -- it's just that the other candidates for acclaim are more so.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #97 on: December 19, 2004, 01:31:43 PM »
How about the golf course match play game. ;D  Matt, would you care to go hole by hole, using your notes or the urls provided that describe each hole, and tell us how superior per hole or in totality each course is to WH?  It is not fair for me to do so, because I haven't played the other two, or I would try to provide the comparison.  Please discuss the shot values, challenge or uniqueness of those you feel are outstanding on BM and DT compared to what you may feel is inferior to WH.  Could you please also discuss the walkability, desire to play over and again factor, pricing, and quality of greens construction, surrounds, fairways, roughs, and not the least - course conditioning on a consistent basis.  How about the ease to access the course for passers through on interstates and locals.  I only used my home course write-up because it mimics the hole by hole descriptions on the official sites of DT and BM.  


http://www.deltagolf.org/front_nine.htm
 VS
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/mhcd.html

http://www.blackmesagolfclub.com/layout.html
 VS
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/mhcd.html

My understanding is the BM is quite close to Las Campanas, and Pak Ko Ridge, UNM, and Twin Warriors.  Perhaps not a Sand Hills GC, but local highly ranked attractions none the less, similar to WH proximity to SH.  Devils Thumb is similarly situated near top CO destinations, so I don't really think that either benefits any more from proximity to top rated courses or access from population centers.
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Matt_Ward

Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #98 on: December 19, 2004, 01:47:29 PM »
RJ:

I'd be happy to relate such a comparison but not when I'm preparing to watch the Jets do battle with the Seahawks.

One other thing -- c'mon RJ -- the proximity of Sand Hills is THE draw that brings people -- particularly golfers -- to western Nebraska. When they visit the gem in Mullen they also happen to play Wild Horse.

Devil's Thumb gets far less attention even with Montrose / Moab nearby. I don't doubt those locations bring tourists but the golf crowd doesn't mosy over to Delta to play golf. Few even make the short trek from Grand Junction.

One cannot compare the magnitude of Sand Hills -- the Vatican of modern golf to the other courses metioned. Night and day difference although I am a mega fan of Black Mesa and I would urge you to read the review of the layout by Ron Whitten on golfdigest.com / access through his directory of courses. See why Whitten links Black Mesa to the revered Pacific Dunes.

See the quote below ...

"Course architect Baxter Spann had not previously been known for lay-of-the-land design, but, in my mind, what he established at Black Mesa ranks among the very best minimalist layouts in America. It's on a par with Tom Doak's Pacific Dunes, for example, and its achievement even exceeds that wonderful coastal layout, because it's a lot tougher to push around sandstone rock and keep it looking natural than it is the sand dunes of Oregon."

One other thing -- the match play game created by Ran fails because it's quite limited in its overall cross comparison anaylsis IMHO.

RJ -- let's be clear -- even when I do provide the analysis of each course on all the topics you mentioned what's the point since you have not played them and it's likely you'll still hunker down and proclaim Wild Horse the superior product.

You need to take a modified chill. No one -- least of all me is dissing your beloved Wild Horse -- heck -- I love the course too. Unfortunately, some people do not have the time or wherewithal -- call it what you will -- to play a wider range of courses. The issue here on this particular thread was 20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse. I have mentioned the names of a few that I believe merit that consideration and Ihave posted numerous past details on those courses. Like I said when I have the time I'll be glad to do something in that regard but if your personal mind can't be convinced then what's the point -- right?

When I have the time I'll be glad to provide my own cross comparison analysis and leave it at that. I wold urge you to play them but ultimately that's your call not to if that's the case.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:20 courses in the country better than Wild Horse
« Reply #99 on: December 19, 2004, 02:27:41 PM »
Matt, I fully intend to play DT and BM, if at all possible.  I had looked above at my comments and can't find anyplace where I said that DM or DT are specifically "inferior" to WH.  My issue is that you proclaim, somewhat decisively that the are "superior".  I don't know how many times you played these two specifically in question compared to how many times you played WH.  But, I get the distinct impression that the call is more personal than substantive.  Actually, all calls such as that probably are personal taste.  

I am very happy for Rick Phelps, who I have met and respect a great deal from my conversations with him.  I bet that DT wouldn't disappoint me in the least.  Probably the same can be said of DT, even though I do believe, just from pictures that while the greens seem everybit as exciting as WH, the off fairway and greens surrounds may not be as recoverable and enjoyable, mostly due to demands and constraints that the native land extracts.  Again, I did not denegrate these fine courses at all.

But, you have also relied heavily on the so called "proximity factor" to Sand Hills as some great benefit to WH.   Think about that a minute.  How many rounds do you think are played at SH?  maybe 11-12000?  How many of them are played by members?  1/2 - 2/3?  How many rounds at WH?  24-26000.  What number of rounds at WH do you think are played by guests on the way up to Mullen?  I'll bet not even 1000.  The Mullen users are a very finite number indeed.  Now, how many tourists and travellers do you think go through the CO region of DT or NM region of BM?  Don't you think that as many outsiders from mere travel to those CO and NM parts play those courses as the travellers through Gothenburg, without even having an invite to Mullen?  This proximity impact you are stuck on, just doesn't ring true to my ears... ::) 8) ;D ;)

Wild Horse would get its proper place in high esteem if Dick Youngscapp never drove west of Lincoln.  Although, I can't say how the village of G-burg would have then heard of the Bunkerhill boys... ::) 8) ;D

PS: Breath easier, Jets are in command at half...
« Last Edit: December 19, 2004, 02:33:14 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

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