[TEPaul]

“TE
Perhaps I missed it...where in that Wilson report does he discuss the important process of laying out the golf course?”

Tom MacWood:

Perhaps you did miss it. He discusses it in that report thusly;

‘‘”Our problem was to lay out the course, build and seed eighteen greens and fifteen fairways. Three fairways were old pasture turf…..’


“I'd be curious when that process began and how many days it took?”

It appears from that report that it took from what he describes as the spring of 1911 until September 1st through the 15th, 1911, when he mentions they sowed the course with grass for golf! At that point they apparently let the course grow in and opened it for play on Sept 14, 1912. (in case you didn't realize it when a course is seeded and allowed to grow in that can be assumed that the architectural construction on that phase is finished!).

 “Did they use a topo map?”

If they did, and as I’ve said numerous times on here that topo and Wilson’s sketches or whatever they may have used to design and construct the course apparently has been lost. So far, as hard as we’ve looked and others have looked in and around Merion golf club and the Cricket Club and in other likely places in the last few years we can find nothing left from this first phase about the architecture except a report like this one from Hugh Wilson---This is so unlike the next phase from which we have so much.

 “Did Wilson lay out the course himself or was it a group effort among all or some of the committee members?”

Again, there’s very little left on that kind of detail from that first phase. From a few accounts that remain, particularly Richard Francis----it seems to have been a group effort.

 “Did they seek advice while laying out the course?”

You can see from what Wilson said in that report that all he said is they sought advice from local committees and greenskeepers!

Once again, here’s the extent of what Wilson said in that report about that period of app six months of the architectural creation of the first phase of Merion East.

“…..we collected all the information we could from local committees and greenkeepers, and we started in the spring of 1911 to construct the course on ground which had largely been farmland…..After completing construction of the greens, and thoroughly harrowing and breaking up the soil on both fairways and greens, we allowed the weeds to germinate and harrowed them in about every three weeks. We sowed from September first to fifteenth 1911) and made a remarkably good catch due to two things—good weather conditions and thorough preparation of the soil. …..We opened the course September 14, 1912….”
Hugh Wilson, 1916

I suppose you think or are trying to suggest on here that if they didn’t record exactly who did what or if we can’t now find that record that that indicates they didn’t do it. Well, Tom, you may look at the history of the creation of a golf course like Merion East that way but I most certainly do not! They were the ones charged with designing and building a golf course and that’s what they did. If they, for whatever reason, decided not to do that and to get someone else to do it, one can logically assume the record would show that! The thing I find so comical about the way you seem to go about this is you seem to suggest if they didn’t keep a detailed record or we can’t find it that that must mean somehow they didn’t do it and that someone else must have. That’s a very odd way to look at the history of a golf course that does not have an elaborately detailed record of the time of the first phase of its creation!  

[wsmorrison]

A member of the committee to lay out the new course,  Richard S. Francis, wrote the following in 1950:

"Except for many hours over a drawing board, running instruments in the field and just plain talking, I made but one important contribution to the layout of the course.

The land was shaped like a capital "L" and it was not very difficult to get the first 13 holes into the upright portion-with the help of a little ground on the north side of Ardmore Avenue--but the last five holes were another question.

I was looking at a map of the property one night when I had an idea.  Not realizing it was nearly midnight, I caled Mr. Lloyd on the telephone, found he had not gone to bed, got on my bicycle and rode a mile or so to see him.  The idea was this:  We had some property west of the present course which did not fit in at all with any golf layout.  Perhaps we could swap it for some we could use?

Mr. Lloyd agreed.  The land now covered by fine homes along Golf House Road was exchanged for land about 130 yards wide by 190 yards long-the present location of the 15th green and the 16th tee.  Within a day or two, the quarryman had his drills up where the 16th green now is and blasted off the top of the hill so that the green could be built as it is today."

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike --

Let me add a question:

How do you know, really, that "John Gehman designed the Butter Valley Golf Port in PA in 1968, or that Willie Tucker designed the first nine holes at Bonneville GC in Utah in 1927?"

You may know that Mr. Gehman and Mr. Tucker were in charge -- but how do you know that all of their best ideas didn't come from some Burbeckian underling? (Seems to me a given, in collegial enterprises, that the officially attributed credits and blames for ideas, good and bad, rarely tell the full, true story...and that the full, true story is rarely recoverable -- even the next year, much less most of a century later.)

Don't you think this Merion investigation might be attempting to reconstruct the unreconstructable?

Dan;

To answer your first question, you're correct...in most cases my research (similar to Cornish & Whitten's) has to assume that the principal architect in charge of a project is the "architect of record".  Trying to research some of this stuff can be a daunting task even just to get that basic information.  And, even on modern courses, when I know that most of a design might be attributable to Tom Marzolf, it remains a "Tom Fazio" design because Mr. Marzolf reports to Mr. Fazio.  I am also assuming that most people take some pride of ownership in something bearing their name so they would sign off with approvals first.

In the case of Merion, and your second question, even if it is unsolvable, reading accounts like the one Wayne just provided from Mr. Frances make it worth the getting there.  

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

When you write a post like #94 you're really not looking at that story realistically--in other words you're not including Tom MacWood's all important "Philadelphia architect conspiracy theory to glorify Philly architects at the exclusion of all others".

Sure Richard Francis wrote that interesting little story (that's been in the Merion history book for years) of how and when HE thought up how #15 and #16 (the famous quarry hole) came to be architecturally but what Francis obviously didn't include in that story---obviously expunged from the story for the greater glory of himself and the Merion Committee was that actually C. B. Macdonald (probably with Whigam and Raynor by his side) called him up that night and "ADVISED" him to do exactly what he said he came up with on his own! You know what Tom MacWood is suggesting here must be so---eg that there's really no way a true architectural novice like Richard Francis could've come up with something architecturally that good and that interesting on his own! Don't you think it's obvious that Francis must have been advised on that by a real architect like C.B. Macdonald?  

And frankly, Wayne you should focus on the reality (or lack of it) of this remark by Francis;

"Within a day or two, the quarryman had his drills up where the 16th green now is and blasted off the top of the hill so that the green could be built as it is today."

Do you really think Wilson and committee and perhaps Pickering, Toomey and Flynn could've actually done a green as cool as #16's is without at least getting in touch with C.B. Macdonald and Whigam or Raynor first and at least getting their "ADVICE" on how to do it?

[TEPaul]

"TE
One of the most important phases in the design process is routing the golf course. What do we know about the routing process at Merion?  When was the golf course routed, how did the process evolve, how long did it take, who was involved. Merion is often cited for its brilliant routing over a fairly tight property....it would be nice to know these things."

That's right, Tom, the routing certainly is an interesting process and a most important one and Merion's routing certainly is one for the ages. I guess you just don't want to acknowledge the truth of that little story posted above and what it might mean if extrapolated in a whole routing sense of Richard Francis and how the last third of #15 and the quarry hole came to be both in a routing and architectural sense. It popped right out of Francis's head apparently in a virtual overcoming of a routing glitch and a routing obstacle.

Did Francis actually think of that all by himself? OH MY GOD, how the hell could he? According to people like you he was just a f...architectural novice---how could he have done something like that? But he apparently did, and apparently Wilson and his committee with perhaps the help and maybe even serious designing and drawing input from Flynn, and the help of foreman Pickering and engineer Toomey may've done the routing of the course themselves!!!

I'll ask you the simple question on that one more time. If someone else did that routing to anything more than a minor extent---somebody like perhaps C.B. Macdonald or Whigam or Raynor then why in the hell didn't Wilson and the committee mention that fact as they had done regarding the help Macdonald offered them BEFORE Wilson traveled to Europe for seven solid months of study?

If someone else, like a Macdonald really did help them to a significant extent, Tom, why do you suppose it was never mentioned? This is me is becoming the key here.

Are you really still trying to hang on to this ridiculous notion of yours that those guys were such novices they couldn't have done this themselves? And even worse, are you still trying to hang on to the more ridiculous notion that there was some campaign in this town to glorify Philadelphia architects at the exclusion of others who may've helped them?

I hope little by little (only because you seem so intransigent to what seems logical) despite the fact that a detailed record did not exist or perhaps did but has now been lost, unfortunately, of this early phase, that we're convincing you that these odd notions of yours are simply fiction!

[TEPaul]

"I was under the impression the construction phase began in the spring of 1911…wouldn’t the golf course have been routed prior to construction?"

Tom MacWood:

Actually that's an excellent question! Logically, that should be done before construction of any holes began but that is not necessarily the way it did happen on some of these early golf courses. PVGC is probably the best example of a course whose routing was not finalized before construction began and this very well may be one of the primary reasons why Crump seemed to get struck for a considerable amount of time finalizing and constructing the last four holes. In a phrase this is what one might call "constructing yourself right into a corner"---never a good thing to do in routing and designing and constructing a golf course.

With Merion East, however, the configuration of the land is far more conducive than PVGC to leading a router or routers on what Bill Coore calls "A golf walk"----eg the determination of a routing or routings!

[TEPaul]

"There appears only to be a brief mention of “lay out of the course” and it is lumped in with other problems… “build and seed eighteen greens and fifteen fairways.” He then goes on to state three fairways were old pasture, I’m not sure what comes next, then the account says they collected all the information they could from local committees and greenkeepers. Information on what…does he specify?"

Tom MacWood:

Is it ever going to be possible for you to come to terms with the fact that this is the best we have so far on the details of this early time? My God, man, you keep acting as if when we can't produce something in a written quotation from Wilson or his committee on every single question you may ever have that that's tanatamount to you concluding that they couldn't have done it! Are you really that obtuse?

I wouldn't even mind if you were if that's as far as you took it but you seem constantly inclined to go even farther and imply that someone else must have done it when you have far less to deduce that from than we do with Wilson and his committee!

[Dan Kelly]

Remember when Ted Baxter was "writing" his autobiography on "The Mary Tyler Moore Show"?

During one whole episode, Ted typed everything that happened, everything everyone said. If Mary said, for example, "Would you like to go out to lunch, Ted?", Ted would immediately type: "And then Mary said: 'Would you like to go out to lunch, Ted?' "

All I can say is: It's a damned shame Hugh Wilson didn't attend the Ted Baxter Famous Autobiographers School.

And then Dan Kelly wrote: "It's a damned shame Hugh Wilson didn't attend the Ted Baxter Famous Autobiographers School."

[TEPaul]

I said:

”If someone else did that routing to anything more than a minor extent---somebody like perhaps C.B. Macdonald or Whigam or Raynor then why in the hell didn't Wilson and the committee mention that fact as they had done regarding the help Macdonald offered them BEFORE Wilson traveled to Europe for seven solid months of study?”

In response to that Tom MacWood said and asked:

"That’s a good question….there appears to be other facts he chose not to cover in his report for whatever reason: The routing process is not discussed (as far as I can tell),  the Francis story and the acquisition of additional land is not mentioned and the fact that Whigham and Macdonald visited the site at least twice. Perhaps you don’t consider the W&M visits important but certainly the other two episodes were significant in the golf course’s development.
There are still a number of questions that haven’t answered: When was the golf course routed…is it likely it was routed prior to the construction starting in spring 1911? Crump began constructing before routing, but six years later the course wasn't complete and he was dead...not a good model. It appears Merion was constructed and grassed in relatively short order.
Other unanswered questions: how did the routing process evolve, how long did it take, who was involved?"

Tom MacWood:

At this point I'm really beginning to ask myself what on earth has gone wrong with you??

Did it ever occur to you that Wilson may not have mentioned the Francis story or the Mcd/Whigam visits because he didn't think them very important in the broad scheme of things, probably because they weren't??? At least in the context of a ten page report about the creation of Merion East that Piper asked him to write in 1916? (I'd ask Wayne to scan that entire 10 page report onto this website but when you actually see how concerned Wilson was in that report about things like grubs and worms I'm afraid you might actually conclude that Wilson couldn't have had a thing to do with golf architecture itself!!).

You said:

"Perhaps you don’t consider the W&M visits important but certainly the other two episodes were significant in the golf course’s development."

Tom, it really doesn't matter what I think is important or you think is important, what matters is WHAT HUGH WILSON THOUGHT WAS IMPORTANT!! I keep telling you if Wilson thought the visit to NGLA was so important as to merit the mention he gave it and the appreciation he showed to Macdonald for that NGLA two days but not the apparent visits of Mcd/Whigam to Philadelphia then what does that mean to you. Please try real hard to answer with something other than 'That's a good queston'!! Why do you suppose that was? Probably because they weren't important and consequently he saw no real importance in them and didn't mention them for that reason.

And maybe the Francis story and the routing of the course is important to you and to me but for some reason what was more important to Wilson was the agronomy of the course that took up about 9 1/2 pages of his ten page report on the creation of Merion East in his report in 1916.

Just because what's so damn important to you or to me didn't appear to be so damn important to Wilson sure doesn't mean to me that one should then deduce and assume that he didn't or couldn't have routed and designed that golf course.

Crump over six soild years of being at PVGC daily virtually wrote nothing!!! What does that imply to you---that he didn't think the routing and the design and everything else about the golf course WASN'T IMPORTANT???

Please don't answer that---I'm afraid you might actually say yes.  

[TEPaul]

"All I can say is: It's a damned shame Hugh Wilson didn't attend the Ted Baxter Famous Autobiographers School."

Dan:

All I can say is that's one of the funnier things I've heard on here along about now on this magnifying-glass like inquisition on Merion East from Tom MacWood and what he thinks others should automatically think should be so damned important. It probably hasn't occured to Tom MacWood yet that what he thinks is so damned important some of these old architects may not have, despite the fact that they just went ahead and created some of these gems anyhow! I sometimes feel if any of those old architects could read this site and how super-serious some of us get about some of the things they did, they'd probably all fall down in hysterical laughter!!

I think Tom MacWood should be forced to plaster that remark of yours across his forehead and wear it for a year. I also think Ran should force him to use that remark of yours as a quotation on the bottom of every single post he writes on here for the remainder of time!

[TEPaul]

"There are still a number of questions that haven’t answered: When was the golf course routed…is it likely it was routed prior to the construction starting in spring 1911?"

Wow! When was the course routed? Was it routed prior to construction? Well, er, ah, that's probably sort of logical to assume, but who really knows, those guys back then were pretty adventurous and pretty clever! Maybe they all just got together and sort of designed a golf course in a vacuum in one of the upstairs rooms of the clubhouse and then went out later on the site to see if they got lucky and it would fit somehow!

You said;  

"Crump began constructing before routing, but six years later the course wasn't complete and he was dead...not a good model."

No, Tom, Crump didn't start constructing before routing, I only said he began construction before he FINALIZED his routing!

"It appears Merion was constructed and grassed in relatively short order."

Yes, that's right. The first phase was done according to Wilson between the spring of 1911 and September of 1911. Maybe that's one of the reasons they continued to alter and evolve the course and its architecture for the next 20 years just as Crump continued to alter and evolve his architecture until the day he died at which point it still wasn't finished. If he'd been down there constructing the course to Colt's hole designs he probably would've finished the course in less than six monts after June 1913! But of course you really wouldn't want to hear that because it might minimize Colt somehow!  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom MacWood,

I can just see it now.

80 years from now your descendants will claim that Fazio advised on the design and building of Friar's Head.

They'll cite some reference to Fazio's early meetings with Ken Bakst and conclude that he advised on the design of the golf course as we know it today.

Yet, nothing could be further from the truth.

Did Fazio visit the site ?  Yes
Did he talk to Ken Bakst   Yes
Did he present a plan ?  Yes

Can you conclude from that that he advised on Friar's Head ?

I guess it depends on how much of the truth needs to be told.

With respect to your clippings, those are nice general references, not unlike public relations pieces that CBM himself might dole out to the press.

But, what specific advice did MacDonald and Whigham provide ?

Could you tell us on a hole and/or feature specific basis ?

Absent that information we don't know whether CBM nodded approvingly, disagreed or actually got into detailed specifics on features and holes.

This is reminiscent of your insistance that Emmett and/or Travis assisted with the design of NGLA, without any substantive supporting documentation on hole and feature specifics.

CBM was a man of great importance..... in his eyes.
Could it be that he advised on every course being built in his time ...... in his eyes ?

Until the specifics of his contributions are known how can you make any claim regarding the extent of his involvement ?  

While you raise a valid question ?  I don't think you can draw any solid conclusions. Nobody, as yet, has any information that indicates the specifics and the extent of his advice, or, that he gave any specific advice, or that anybody listened to anything he said.  

As you know, it was rumored that he did have an ego.

So, did Fazio advise Ken Bakst at Friar's Head ?

The answer is YES and NO.

It's the context in which the advise was given that is critical to the issue, and so it is at Merion and NGLA.

And, until you know that, you can't draw any finite conclusions.

Pat, I could have my facts not straight here, but I don't think Tom Fazio himself ever met or spoke with Ken Bakst before it was constructed. I also think it would be of a great dis-service to the creative talent of Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw and company to even suggest it--even if it was in a manner of trying to make a point. But that's my take.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom MacWood;

CB was a pretty shameless self-promoter.  

If he had routed Merion, my guess is that he would be praising more than 7 of the holes as equal to anything in the country at that time.  I read this is as him saying to Wilson, et.al., "you're almost half as good as me".  

[wsmorrison]

If I had to guess, I would say Macdonald would've been at best quiet on the subject of Shinnecock Hills.  After all, Flynn's work essentially wiped out the previous Macdonald/Raynor work on site, including as we now know the 7th    If Macdonald did in fact comment on the Flynn redesign, I certainly would want to see that!

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood said:

"In fact, other than his ultra-ego Raynor,"

Tom:

I've always known that Macdonald had quite an ego but what, pray tell, is his 'ultra-ego Raynor' all about. I'm beginning to wonder if that Macdonald ego has rubbed off on some of biggest fans today to such an extent they're beginning to think that if he was somewhere in some town everybody suddenly became a novice as the big talent hit town and the assumption was he must have done their courses.

I'm a big fan of Macdonald because I love NGLA but the truth is NGLA got the way it did because he basically spent almost thirty years on it perfecting it, just the way Wilson and Flynn spent years perfecting Merion, and Crump spent years perfecting PVGC, and Fownes spent years perfecting Oakmont and Leeds spent years perfecting Myopia.

Oh my God, four out of five of those guys were amateurs who never took a nickel---how did novices like that ever do such things?  

[Paul_Turner]

A friend of mine, who is familiar with Merion (I'm not), reckons that the original stretch 7-10 is better in the 1916 routing above, in terms of pacing.  The current routing has 3 short par 4s in that stretch (and the 11th plays rather short too).  

What do you reckon?

[mike_malone]

 Paul,
   Did your friend comment on the tee angles of the par threes on the front? I think the old angles are more interesting(assuming that the green contours of today were the same then--big assumption)

[TEPaul]

"TE
A few months ago you said I had it in for Macdonald because of position in the Schnectady putter fiasco."

Tom:

Well, maybe I'm being inconsistent then, but I don't think so. That was about rules and the organizational aspects of golf that I've been into for years and not architecture. I just felt from reading about that particular issue that Macdonald was unusually even-handed and basically acting in the spirit of useful compromise about.

"How much do you know about the key moments in the development of Oakmont and Myopia?"

Not much--more about Oakmont than Myopia but I sure do know where to go and who to go to for the key moments in the development of both. Why do you ask?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I think the original routing of the front nine would be better to play than the current one.
That been said, I do not know if my opinion on that is in some way or another due to the fact that I once read an article on golf course constuction written by CBMc..or could it be because I have also played all the classic links courses and as such in some way perverse to that way of thinking...or could it be ...you get my drift..it does semm as though the original flow would have been better.
I do have one question of interest...why do the members of Merion call their most important event....THE WILSON..... just a thought.
In my ignorant way of thinking, I assume that the membership has a pretty good handle on the history of thier beloved property, but hey..I may be wrong

[SPDB]

Mayday - What are you talking about? The angles featured on the map continue on both current 3 + 9, except that there have been new tees added (closer to to 6th tee on 3, and on the other side of 8 green on 9) but the old tees (or angles) that you see on this map are still there.  I don't know the history of #3, but on the current hole the large bunker is on the right, and not directly in front as featured in this map. It could be a drafting error, and it could be that the bunker was moved when Wilson launched a renovation of the bunkers (during which he passed), but I have it on very good authority that what happened is that the club employed CB MacDonald to come in and change the hole to make it conform more to a redan...over the bitter protests of one William S. Flynn (a boastful drunk superintendent, who in moments of sobriety, fancied himself an architect, and the responsible party for Merion's greatness).

[TEPaul]

Paul:

Regarding your post #93 and question about the routing progression of Merion East in the 1916 progression vs now, in my opinion, and despite what your friend who knows Merion East well says, I think it would be unadulterated freaking MADNESS to tamper with the routing progression of that course (even to go back to original) as the way it is now and has been since about 1916 is so unique and so cool as to almost be one a Merion East's primary architectural assets in the world. There's just something totally unique about those so-called "three sections" or "three sets" of Merion East and the full extent of the so-called "short" or middle section just the way it now is is really key! Talk about a course that's routing gets in your head about what's to come and what've you down previous---it's Merion East. So many people try to catch up senselessly on the short middle section if they've made some mistakes on the first six and always in the back of everyone's mind is to get ready and get sort of a jump start through that short middle section to get ready to take on the tough last five!

If I hear anyone over there is even considering such a restoraton back to that first routing progression, I'm driving right over there and telling them that I can tell them there's this guy from Ohio who can personally guarantee that the "advice" of the ghosts of the great Charles Blair Macdonald, the ghost of the great Henry J. Whigam and the ghost of the great Seth J. Raynor is that they definitely NOT consider such a thing. If they ask me how this guy in Ohio knows those great architectural talents feel that way I fully expect Tom MacWood to supply a 1916 article in some esoteric long defunct golf magazine that says precisely that!

[TEPaul]

Michael W-P:

Don't worry, give me a little time and I'll convince you that the present so-called "three sets" of the routing progression is wholly unique. I know you're a great player so maybe you've not stumbled yet on that opening stretch (1-6) but if you ever do that "short stretch" (7-13) can sneak up and take a large chunk out of your hynnie if you try and get too aggressive and too fresh with it. As I've mentioned on here about 95 times I played the course one time about 2-3 years ago with Nick Faldo (who unbelievably had never seen Merion East before) and when I asked him later about the total length thing of the course and that perception he said; "That's nonsense because this course has some of the best long par 4s I've ever seen but it also has some of the best really short par 4s I've ever seen (right in a row), and so they couldn't possibly make the course that long on the total card but so what?" He also said; "Look which stretch just got me!" (the short stretch).

About the Wilson tournament--if Merion is reading this marathon of a thread maybe they'll actually buy into what Tom MacWood has said about Merion East and Macdonald and Whigam's (and Raynor?) "advice" and call the tournament the "Henry J. Seth MacWilson Tournament" in the future!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

TE
I do see your point, and you know how I feel about Merion.
Hell, every stretch has killed me at some time or another, that is the beauty of the place...the course does not know the meaning of "easy stretch"  just get a little off line anywhere and the place will eat your lunch.

I love the course the way it is, that stretch 3-4-5-6 is just great, but you know what, that stretch 1-18 is pretty good to.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

TE,
By the way we will have to get on the phone to talk about the Faldo story..now you really have my attention.

[TEPaul]

"TE
I do see your point, and you know how I feel about Merion.
Hell, every stretch has killed me at some time or another,"

Michael W-P:

Oh I don't know about that. I know what a good player you are and something tells me you haven't had that short stretch take a bite out of your hynnie like it can do if you get too aggressive with it to get something back or dose off on it a bit if you reach it ahead of expectations. I've seen that stretch take massive bites out of some pretty good players' hynnies so bad they really don't have much ass left went they limp on over to the 14th tee!

Tell me something Michael--because I'm not that great a speller--do you think I'm spelling "hynnie" in the British way or in the American way?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()