I haven't seen Black Diamond or Shadow Creek, but I talked recently with a member of BD, that played SC this year. He felt that SC was too apparently man made, and felt artificial. An okay course, but not one of the top courses in his opinion.

Gary, ok, you are silly.  I played the Downs last october and drove the green and made an "easy" three.  It is one of the great do or die holes in golf, especially in match play.
As for Shadow Creek: it is like cotton candy--too sweet and once is enough.

Gary,
Carnoustie--now here is one we can have some good conversations about! What about the Old Course? Where is that on your list? Don't tell me you went over there and didn't play there?

Carnoustie... I've definitely got opinions of this one but will save 'em for another thread.

Old Course... Closed for an R&A member tourney the day I got there.  It was a classic case of bad travel planning by me.  Lots of tears shed by me when I showed up as a single and couldn't play it the three days I was in St. Andrews.  

I see that the question here has shifted.  It's no longer "is Shadow Creek a great course" but rather is it as great as "Garden City or Plainfield, or Fenway or Winged Foot or Friar's Head or NGLA or Maidstone (Opps! Sorry Matt! Maidstone makes my list!   etc.!) or Piping Rock or The Creek or Yale or Riviera or Pine Valley or Merion (old Merion) Cypress Point or SFGC or Olympic or Sand Hills or Pacific Dunes or Apache Stronghold or The Valley Club of Montecito, etc. etc. etc."

Gentlemen, those are two separate questions.

For the sake of argument, I could agree with Tommy that Shadow Creek is a lesser course than every one he lists... and still say that it is TRULY GREAT!

It is.  It is a great, great golf course.  Now of course it's not Tommy's cup of tea, because it is manufactured and artificial.  Notice I didn't even mention the architect's name.  It also most definitely is VERY different from the courses he lists, all of whom are either very old and very traditional, or very minimalist.  Shadow Creek is none of those things.

But does that mean it can't be great?

That's silly.  

Shadow Creek is as modern as can be, and is likely the MOST artificial course on the planet.  So if those are disqualifiers for you - as they seemingly are for Tommy - then it can't be a great course.  Tommy's made up his mind - the rest of you can do the same.  Are those necessary disqualifiers?

They're not for me.  I could truly care less when a course is built, and while I do prefer a minimalist and/or natural style, well... greatness is greatness if the course is fun to play and presents me with challenges.  Shadow Creek does both of those things in spades.

So sure, it doesn't fit my normal ideas of a great course either - but still, it is great.  It's comical, it's artificial, it's brilliant in a lot of ways, it takes a sense of humor.  But couldn't you say all of those things about Disneyland?  Is Disneyland not great, for what it is?

Shadow Creek is great in the same way.  It is a completely made-up world, taken out of barren featureless desert.  It's whimsy and fantasy and escapism and in all those respects, damn fun.

Tommy's hotel analogy is actually very good here.  The only difference is that I think one can, and should, suspend his disbelief and not EXPECT the Waldorf when staying at the Mirage... it's pretty silly to do so... You should know it's an artificial replication of a great hotel, not a great hotel itself.  But if you take it that way, and just enjoy it for what it is, well it can be pretty damn fun.

Same can be said for Shadow Creek.

It remains a great golf course.

TH

ps - I think I said above my wife and I stayed at Mirage... it was Bellagio... damn this memory loss that comes with age.

There is one thing that has struck me here and that is the architect had a blank canvas..

So why are there any parallel holes at all!!?

Brian

Adam,
What about holes 6, 7, 8, 11, & 12?  From memory, didn't those holes run East and West?

What Mark told us was that the routing was designed so that you would never be playing with the blinding morning sun because it would be up by the time you got to the back nine and vice-versus at night when the sun was going down--not that anyone out there wouold be playing late into the day. I would imagine golf out there ends pretty early.

Personally I have never gotten the sun in the eyes thing. I like the warmth of the sun and don't care if its in my eyes--that's nature, but thanks to the ever-changing seasons, the sun does change its position during the year.  But that only affects those of us who play year round!  

Huck,
This drunk walks into this bar astonishes everyone inside because he is wearing a duck on the top of his head. So he sits down right at the bar and starts getting ready to order when the bartender walks-up to him and says, "Hey buddy, why do you have a duck on top of your head?"  The drunk responds, "Thats not a duck, that's a chicken."  

The bartender looking sort of stunned realizes the guy might have had just one too many, responds, "If thats a chicken then how come its quacken on the top of your head?" The drunk responds, "He's not quacken, he's chucklin'."

And so on, and so on.

If I recall, the course was built that way Tommy b/c of the problems Steve Wynn has with his sight. He has some rare visual disability.

Tommy, was it the 13th or 14th hole that has all of the bunkers that we thought was the best hole.  If I recall when you stand on the green you can't see any of the bunkers.. Mark told me it was Fazio's tribute to Mackenzie.  I didnt think Tom Fazio paid homages.

FYI, AOTD #2:

Matt:

I am fully awake and have had my coffee.  Shadow Creek has plenty of beef - call it a chateaubriand.

YOUR way is not the only way, my friend.  Oh, I do respect your assessments of courses and I absolutely believe you know your stuff.  But your discount of all matters outside what you want to call the "meat", "guts" or "beef", well... None of us is necessarily RIGHT or WRONG about this.  You have your way, others have other ways, including me.  If I'm eating a fine steak, I'd like some fine wine or beer and some nice side dishes to go with it.  I gather you take the steak raw and eat it with your hands?

 

I loved Shadow Creek.  Part of it was the treatment and the feeling there, but I really believe I'd enjoy the course and call it "great" even if they let me show up in my beatup Saturn and walk and carry my own sticks and leave without talking to anyone.

It's a very fun golf course to play.  It's very beautiful, in an artificial Disneyland kinda way.  I enjoyed it.  That's enough beef for me.

And I have played nearly all the courses in Mesquite - haven't gotten to Wolf Creek yet, but I'm sure I will some day.  I'm sure I'll enjoy that as well.  I might call it better than Shadow Creek, might not.  We'll see.

Is Shadow Creek among the elite best in the US?  Well... maybe that is a stretch.  But I would say it's closer to the top than most courses, without a doubt.  I do call it great.  Just how great, well, that's a matter of opinion also.

TH

Matt Ward-

I will concur that playing Wolf Creek may top Shadow Creek because of the stunningness of the canyons WC is built into.  That being said, I'm not sure any course like WC where they have to helicopter in turf is exactly a place that should have had a golf course.  But then again, there is no shot at Shadow Creek that is as enjoyable as say the 2nd tee shot from the Tiger tees at Wolf Creek.  That being said, I could tee one up at Zion National Park and have the same feeling of freedom or hit some balls into the Escalante River in Utah with red rock formations flanking.

Huck:

I never said SC was a piss poor excuse for a course. At the same time -- it's not within my personal top 100 and frankly has little beef that inspires me to return. At best Shadow Creek is no more than an appetizer at best.

And I can understand how someone solely concerned with the "meat" of a golf course would feel this way.  I rate it higher, but then again I do think of things differently.

TH

Gary Nelson:

The way to describe SC as a hotel is simple-- think of what the core of Vegas is -- it's all about the show -- the nonstop lights that blink onand off in an array of colors. Whats missing?

The depth!

SC is not a bad course -- it's good in spots. But, when people talk about elevating into say a top 100 or worse yet -- a top 50 -- then it's clear they are being influenced more by the veneer -- than what's inside the building's frame.

You've got to credit Steve Wynn for all the fanfare attached to the place. Wynn stirred the pot perfectly and for a time the spell he wove was intoxicating.

Shadow Creek is a great case study in seeing what people value -- ultimately, it gives me a clue on how they would see things with other courses of comparable ilk.

When Shadow Creek first opened it was like the new saucy dance club that attracted a big following. Once the intitl glow and buzz dropped off you can then assess what's there. Frankly, it's a fine layout but the benchmark for inclusion with the truly great courses is not there IMHO.

Like I said -- I'd like to ask TF if he really sees SC as being the best course he ever done. I would be shocked if he said it was.