Pat - I'm not attacking either, but the remarkable thing about this non-compete theory is that if any one else had raised it you'd be screaming bloody murder about how irresponsible and dangerous speculation is without a shred of proof.

I do think it is interesting and worth exploring, if there is anything that suggests its anything more than rumination on your part.

Here's my new Golfclubatlas.com post proposal.

When you make a post with some architectural idea from the past you categorize what that post is in one of three ways;

1. Theory
2. Fact
3. Thact (something between theory and fact)

"...or faeory  [as in the celtic ]."

I like that word. The etymology and word structure is probably appropriately Irish---something they pass off as fact but really isn't exactly. Some call it blarney or the Irish imagination!    

The Anatomy of a Theory:

"Emmett's work at GCGC might have been responsible for him getting the nod at many a course, but the total exclusion of Ross is unusual.  Is it possible that they had a gentlemen's agreement regarding Long Island ?" (no answer)

Tom MacW:

That seems to be the generally accepted feeling with Emmet's career. GCGC got attention early and it'ld certainly stands to reason it spurred his career bigtime around NY and Long Island. Early notice almost always does that with an architect. Why do you suppose Macdonald used him at NGLA and also apparently to help him with Euro hole drawings? Emmet apparently spent a ton of time in Europe, particularly Ireland.

"But, the real question remains, why wasn't Ross involved with any golf course in Long Island.  Perhaps Michael Fay might offer his thoughts." (no response from Fay)

That'll probably never be known for sure but I think my idea on that is logical---Ross just wasn't part of that group, and that group basically dominated LI with a particular type of club and particular type of clientele. There were a few other architects not in that group who did some work there (Strong, Alison, a handful of others) who seemed a bit closer to that group for various reasons and then there were some who were just there and there earlier for a variety of reasons, generally the immigrant pro/greenkeeper/architect such as the Parks, the Dunns, Davis, Tucker etc would did a fair amount on LI. Bendelow seems to have done quite a bit but earlier before the National School juggernaut on LI and NY of Macdonald/Raynor/Banks/Emmet that followed GCGC and NGLA. Tillinghast knew all those guys for a couple of reasons.

"Was Ross friendly with Travis ?" (an affirmative response)

Was he?

"It would seem logical, that if Ross and Travis were so friendly that they entered into a gentleman's agreement with respect to courses in their relative backyards." (the theory is tested….the theorist comes back with a second theory: the sour grapes theory)

I'd like to know why that's logical. Is there any evidence from any time anywhere that Ross entered into some agreement with some other architect or anyone else who didn't work for him?

"I seem to recall something Richard Tufts and/or his son told me almost 40 years ago about Ross and his work in the greater New York area, but don't have any documentation regarding a gentleman's agreement.  After all, in those days, a man's handshake was all the documentation anyone ever needed." (a shocking new development or a desperation move?)

I'd just like to know what that "something" was. Does "something" in any way mean a "gentleman's agreement to not compete"? If Ross wanted to help his good friend (if Travis was in fact his good friend) one would think Ross would've offered to partner with him not do a non-compete agreement with him. God knows so many of the architects around Philly and NYC partnered with each other from those well known "groups". That's pretty undeniable through documentation. Perhaps it was just the logical off-shoot of the so-called "amateur" architects of that time and in those places (although a few of them did end up taking fees but it seems perhaps even the majority of them never did). Many of those early "amateur" architects also turned out to be some really heavyweights in golf architecture. Travis didn't do that many courses in LI anyway so what would the point of this non-compete agreement be?

Maybe Ross didn't like Macdonald and didn't feel like going into his territory---which Long Island certainly was. If Ross didn't like Macdonald he certainly wouldn't have been the only one in that day and age!

Some of the architects not from NY had offices in NYC such as Van Kleek apparently, although he may have piggy backed with Robert Moses. Ross certainly never had an office in NY that I ever heard of.

Tom MacWood,

Travis wasn't the sole voice speaking about GCGC.

Many others praised the golf course to the highest level.
Something you've conveniently forgotten, or overlooked in your extensive research.

Garden City's prominent record for hosting major regional and national championships is undisputed, and with the hosting of those tournaments came notoriety and praise.
Something you again conveniently forgot or overlooked in your extensive research.

You use the common membership of three parties as making sense for your position, but deny the close friendship of Ross and Travis as making sense for another position.
Try to be consistent.

You equate purchasing land with the design and construction of specific features and holes at NGLA.  That's a hell of a stretch.  Oh, I forgot, you claim that Emmett was "involved" at NGLA, yet you didn't produce one shred of evidence that inidicates that he was doing any design and construction work at NGLA.

So far, you've failed to produce one iota of evidence that refutes the theory that Travis and Ross might have had a gentleman's agreement with respect to stepping on each others toes.

I know how painful that must be for you.

Lastly, I never offered my theory as fact, and used the term,
"might" over and over again.

You seem to offer your theories as fact, but, seem unable to support them with any meaningful hard evidence.

Tom MacWood,

Some moron is posting under your name.

You're well aware of the praise GCGC received, from CBM and many others, so don't play dumb, no matter how well it suits you.

Pat -
If I were you, I'd get a hold of the person posting under your name - but quick. Hopefully you'll find him in time to salvage your credibility, because he's making you look like a first rate hypocrite.

No matter how many times you call anyone a moron won't change the fact that you don't practice what you preach.

People offer "theories" all the time, most of the time they offer them in the form of questions (e.g. "What was DE's role at NGLA") and to the extent you disagree with the answer you scream about how there are no supporting facts. But the rules have suddenly changed for you, simply by parsing words - "theory" for you vs. whatever anybody else posts.  Honestly, do you really mean to tell me that if with respect to the DE thread, if Tom MacWood had posed his query as a "theory" rather than a question, you wouldn't have screamed bloody murdy?

With respect to the myth perpetuation that so often forms the basis of your objections, if you can't appreciate the obvious qualitative difference between posing a theory based on some evidence and positing a theory based on no evidence (and the fact that it is you, not others, doing the speculating doesn't count), then I'm afraid you are more irretrievably lost than even I had originally feared.

And let me be clear, I don't object to your offering theories, I only object to your not allowing others a similar liberty.

You lost a lot of credibility on this thread. Your obstinate interference when real discussion was offered (on theories supported by at least some evidence) was annoying and self-serving, but at least it was consistent. Under the new rules (which you will be held to), somebody will avoid your ire only by making sure that they post theories that have absolutely no basis in fact. The moment they offer some support, their theory will be doomed.

Another remarkable sea change represented by your post is the shift in the burden of proof -

THE MUCCI COROLLARY

So far, you've failed to produce one iota of evidence that refutes the theory that Travis and Ross might have had a gentleman's agreement with respect to stepping on each others toes.

Up until Saturday, the burden of proof you required used to be on those who would have others believe their "myths," now it appears that henceforth, the onus will be on you to disprove the "theories" of others with which you disagree. I'm not certain you recognized the amount of work you created for yourself.


And, lastly, ss far as telling you what you would or would not do in a hypothetical situation - you're right up until this thread I would have known, now I have no idea.

Ian Andrew takes a cheap shot at my Ross biography re: Banff. He's simply off base. There's absolutely no doubt that Ross went up there to redesign and expand an existing 9-hole layout, but that it took close to seven years after Ross' one visit to complete the project and the ensuring course was kept on low ground and had little of the drama that the successor course there, by Stanley Thompson, now has.

One other clarification, this for TEPaul. I didn't deal with it in enough detail in my book, but there's absolutely no evidence that Ross was ever considered for the Augusta National job and no evidence that he was embittered over not getting it.

Bidding for jobs was not common, but it happened. Ross won the job at Seminole because the only other proposal for the site (architect was never named) planned to level the wonderful mound on the northwest end that plays such a crucial role for holes 2,3,4,14.

Travis' account of his work at Pinehurst No. 2 is totally unreliable and baseless. While Ross knew all of the era's architects, it is true he stayed away from them professionally, though he corresponded with many of them and played golf occasionally with them as well.

I think the Long Island issue is very interesting. The specualtion about mutual non-compete clauses is baseless and simply grasping at straws. What people seem to undervalue is that unlike Ross, Raynor, Macdonald, Tillinghast, Travis and Emmett were all based in the immediate area and had offices here as well as ongoing social connections. While Ross he did many courses in RI and NJ, a handful in Connecticut and of course Wykagyl and Siwanoy in Westchester, most of Ross's clients came through his major affiliation at Pinehurst, where they were resort guests. Probably half his Midwest work came this way. Maybe the interestng question is why Long Islanders didn't vacation much at Pinehurst - because they went to Europe, for one thing. In any case, Ross didn't have a nearby office and was simply not as well networked. Nor, by the way, did Tillinghast, Raynor and Macdonald do much work in New England. There are all sorts of regional issues here, but trying to fathom up a non-compete clause is absurd.

Brad Klein,

I mentioned the geographic issue regarding the epicenter of different architect's operations.

Even though I offered the theory as a remote possibility, I don't think a gentleman's agreement between Ross and Travis can be viewed as a total impossibility.  After all, Ross was a big time producer and Travis was a small fry.

Those same wealthy, socially connected Long Islanders spent a lot of time in Florida where Ross flourished, hence I believe they were exposed to his work and had ample access to him.

TP.....good faeory !....keep up the good work guys ,i'm going to bed  

TEPaul- I think Ron Whitten wrote some about this in one of his GD articles about Ross.  Check out the article.  It may be just that-a rumor.  Here's the link (cut/paste):
http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/features/the_man_3r1pia4c.html

While I am NOT selectively cutting and pasting to create a point, this very well could be true.  I've heard the same rumors in different places, here, and I think in a few other books.  I seem to recall an interview with Bobby Jones in the Nicklaus majors retrospective film where, if I am not mistaken, he said that the '65 Masters was played in firm and fast conditions, similar to seaside courses, which was their original intent in creating the golf course (Augusta Nat'l).  
You have to agree, the design of Pinehurst does embody the ground game a lot better than Augusta National today!

Also, I too agree, and have agreed previously, that Ross may have been shut out on LI because he was not connected to the social fabric.  Yes, a few exceptions, a few non-bluebloods such as Park and Strong, among others, but for the most part, most of the "classic" courses of note, and those NLE, are either CBM, Raynor, CBM/Raynor, Tillie, Emmet, or Travis.  These men, with the exception of Travis, were all bluebloods, or within that particular community.  Make a list of all the courses built from estates on the island and most all of them are created by this small group.  And you are right, most were created quite early--I think during the first decade, teens and Roaring Twenties.  I think the course which is youngest is Bethpage, but this is a poor example because Robert Moses most likely selected Tillinghast himself, and because he was still producing courses then.  (There is debate about the selection of Tillinghast, but it's another discussion for another post).  Now Travis wasn't a blueblood, but I believe his appeal, his credibility came from his record as an amateur golfer and GCGC.  Everything else (Cherry Valley, GCCC, Westchester, etc.) he created came after these achievements.  
Ross just wasn't part of the LI society who were creating golf courses.  

The original question dealt with the elite projects nationally and Ross, eventually focusing on Long Island. If you look at the super projects on LI--super sites or super budgets--you will find a mixed bag of architects: Timber Point/Alison, Maidstone/Park, Lido & National/Macdonald, Fishers Island/Raynor, Engineers & Inwood/Strong, Montauk Downs/Tippet, North Hills/Tucker, Bethpage/Tillinghast, Shinnecock Hills/Flynn. And larger number of projects slightly down the rung like Crescent Athletic & Women's National/Emmet and Lakeville/Alison.  

It is easy to explain why Emmet, Macdonald, Raynor & Tillinghast (less easy for Tillinghast, I'm not sure he'd be considered a member of the LI establishment) designed a siginificant number of LI courses. It is more difficult to explain why Ross did not design one.

Ross recieved a good deal of press in the NY Times (interviews and articles)...his nationally reputation was known throughout the NY Metro.

From what I understand Ross dominated Rhode Island....did he have difficulty dealing with bluebloods there also?

Another interesting fact Travis was nearly shutout on LI too....could his poor relationship with Macdonald hve been a factor?