Tommy

Give me a feckin' break, as my Irish friends are wont to say to me......

You asked for a comment on the pictures, not on the golf holes.  I'm ecstatic that you now understand the difference between the two!  It hasn't been easy, but I feel we have made some progress with you.  Keep it up!

I have a question.

With modern technology couldn't the second and eighteenth's wall of sand be reestablished?

Another question.

Who out there believes Tom Fazio has spent much time researching the evolution of PVGC?

I know his uncle was the pro at one time, but TF doesn't impress me as someone interested in the least with historic architecture...excepting what personal mark he can leave on a landmark.

Pat,

I have to agree with you.  If I showed most people on here the pictures I have of the short course and said it was the main course they would not know the difference..

Brian

SPDB,

I referenced that the work was done in-house when I responded to Tommy Naccarato yesterday.

I'm not sure of the % ER and TF contributed, but, I think you'd have to accept that it was Fazio's design work, not Ernie Ransome's

Thank you George. Your vote always counts for me!  

Its unfortunate that I didn't go see the Short Course, but I do have to admit that if given the chance, I would much rather go have more of a look at the genius of the original--to me, thats the real Pine Valley! And for every minute in the classroom, that much more of an education I'm going to have.

I'm sure the Short Course is charming, but if I was waking-up in my bed just off of the 5th tee tomorrow morning, after having one of the finest nights sleeps I've had in years--I still wouldn't even give it a second thought where my interests of the day were to be had.

That is the secret of Pine Valley--relish every waking moment!

Tom MacWood,

If you saw the short course, the answer would be self evident.

But, since you haven't seen it, you're in the dark on this one.

George -

We have Tommy starting a thread under the title "Why I dislike Fazio" and it shows a picture of the 14th. Some questions, which despite your belief to the contrary, remain unanswered:

1. Tommy doesn't know when the pic was taken. Therefore it may reflect work by Fazio or it may not.
2. Tommy can't identify what about the photo he dislikes so much (except for the seeming "clean and manufactured look," which even he has to concede is no different than 10,20,30 yrs ago).
3. More to the point, Tommy has no idea of whether Fazio ever worked on the hole that serves as an example of why he hates Fazio.

Tommy and your belief that an architect is now responsible for course setup must come as unwelcome news to the GCSAA, and to Rick Christian and crew who have done most of the work at PV even before Fazio showed up in a professional capacity.

This is yet another example of the "Drive-By," a very popular technique among some of our more vociferous Western posters, taking their strategy from 1990's South Central assasination technique (oddly enough the geography supports the theory as well, coincidence?)

Here it takes the form of "I hate Fazio because of this." And when "this" has nothing to do with Fazio, the rejoinder is that "OK, let's talk about other reasons why I hate Fazio", or "let me offer other theories on why Fazio is probably responsible for this."  The lesson here is do your (some?) homework before you lodge criticism. Tommy did zero.

George, excepting the trees, what difference do you see between the early  pictures, and the picture Tommy used to start this thread that relates to "course setup".

Tom MacWood,

Would you explain your definition of the "evolution" of Pine Valley, a golf course that is mostly, architecturally unchanged since the day it opened,  save for tees.

SPDB,

I agree with you, if someone's going to make an allegation, posting pictures, they should have the facts to support their position, rather then just making general statements that may have no basis in fact.

The fact that the picture can't be dated, and
The fact that Fazio's involvement can't be documented, would seem to indicate that the basic premise is seriously flawed, not to mention that it's an improper allegation, or a breach of ethics.

The following post is trying to be done in the same thoughtful vein as Sean's, and where accusations run supreme--after all, we are all friends here right?

Sean,
Once again you prove that critique can and does get to you.

My dislike of Tom Fazio stems from his inability in properly giving sound advice to every classic courses he consults with, or what YOU think is actually good work.

You want to talk about drive-by killings? So far we have the magical changes at Riviera, the introduction of a style of golf architecture that sticks out like a sore thumb at Bel Air #8; A sypathetic restoration to 1931 Merion which features a bunker style that never existed; Mayan pyramid tees at Oakmont that they're already talking about getting rid of; the built-up Tillinghast bunker style of Winged Foot that even Pat Mucci admits he doesn't care for; Destruction of the best holes at Inverness and others ad infinitum.

So when we talk about drive-bys, I understand, because as a golf course lover I'm usually on the recieving end of the gunfire in my hood, and usually its "Masta T" Fazio and his cru that's doing the shooting.

No matter where Dr. Fazio performs his surgery on classic courses--it is atrocious, and thats what worries me the most about Pine Valley. Certainlly a neighborhood that doesn't need that type of gang hanging around looking at ways to make the next dollar.

Pat, my critique is over the look. I stated that from the very beginning. You and others may like it, personally, I think it is anything but "Valley-like."

That is my opinion, and I'm sticking to it!

Tommy Naccarato,

I think the term, "the Look" is far too vague.

To be fair, I think you have to be feature specific.

You know my preference is for the look as evidenced by the 1922-1925 aerials and ground photos, with some added tee length.

I'm not so sure that Fazio is responsible for the deviation from that look, and in fact, much was changed before Fazio found his way to Clementon, NJ ?

But, I have another question for you.

Could it be that the USGA influence is being exerted into the design elements of the golf course, vis a vis Pine Valley members ?

Tommy Naccarato,

I don't think its just a possibility, I think it's likely.

I'd hypothosize that that influence surpasses Fazio's