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TEPaul

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2008, 03:21:39 PM »
Kelly:

So what do you think of the way Brian Silva interpreted things on some of his courses as he explained in his remarks above?

Do you know Brian?

If not I can tell you he's one of the funniest guys I've ever met. Somehow I'd like to see that humor of his come out in what he does, that would seem pretty natural to me.

I called him on his cell phone one time and asked him where he was and he told me he was building about a 278sf lady's tee in Maine and that in his opinion it was going to be probably the world's best lady's tee of under 300sf, maybe even the best lady's tee in the world of any size.

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2008, 03:49:03 PM »
Kelly

Your idea of addressing my problem with the phrase and mine are indeed different. However I appreciate you taking the time and your post to Tom regarding xmas does make your phrasing easier to understand, if not to condone. Remember, I have np problem with your position, just your choice of language.  I'm reminded of Shaw' famous 'two nations divided by a common language' so I googled it to be sure the phrase was correct (the exact phrase is - Great Britain and the United States are nations separated by a common language) and I found a couple I thought you and Tom might like after this interplay. Both from Shaw -

"If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas."

and

"Life isn't about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself."

Cheers

LC

TEPaul

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2008, 04:11:07 PM »
Lloyd:

Shaw was a playwright and a helluva wit but the man was not good at logic.

I'll buy his apple exchange example, that's simple but he is not right to say that when people exchange ideas they then will always have two ideas.

I mean what if me and Pat Mucci exchanged ideas? If we did that then both of us would only be left with one idea---mine. What Pat Mucci thinks are his ideas are not at all that, at least not in the real world. They're not much more than ether, a vacuum or void, in fact. There is never anything there.

So, on Shaw's idea example he's not completely right.


Sarah Bernhardt:
"Mr Shaw, although we've never met I think we should get together and have a child. Can you imagine what our child would be with my body and your mind?"

George B. Shaw:
"But what if our child had my body and your mind?"

Michael Powers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2008, 09:18:24 PM »
I'm in need of some enlightenment here.  I have played most of Silva's courses in my area CCN, Waverly, Captains, Black Rock, and Red Tail.  While I liked the additions and re-routing at Captains, and Red Tail had some nice holes, I can't say I have ever come off any of these courses and said, "Wow, great course".  
HP

Peter Pallotta

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2008, 02:24:36 PM »
"Golf architecture is not an art of representation, it's an art of interpretation."

Tom, Kelly - along the lines of your thinking on what Behr might've meant, I react to the quote this way:

Golf architecture is an art of MEANING, not of FORM.

The architect seeks in nature for the messages it contains, and then through his craft interprets their meaning for use in the man-made world of the golf course and the sport of golf.

In other words, the architect honours nature's essence FIRST, and then finds ways to honour that essence within the context of golf course architecture's established principles and the needs of the game.

He does not BEGIN with the principles of golf/golf course architecture and then use his craft merely to represent nature's FORM in order to serve those principles.          

In short, nature is what is REAL. It is up to us to work hard at intepreting IT, regardless of the use we intend to make of it.  

Peter
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 03:00:32 PM by Peter Pallotta »

TEPaul

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2008, 03:20:54 PM »
Peter:

Very interesting post. A lot to think about there. But I think I see what Lloyd Cole was concerned about above, this type of thing really does get into the words used, what they mean to various people---how they interpret them etc.

You say golf architecture is an art of MEANING (of the land or Nature or perhaps something else?) not about FORM. But what if a golf architect interprets that meaning pretty much in the context of just form?

I guess one of the problems I've had understanding that Behr remark---"golf architecture in not an art of representation, it's an art of interpretation", is I'm not sure I understand what the distinctions are exactly between representation and interpretation.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 03:26:10 PM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2008, 03:28:16 PM »
At least, that's the way I think Behr is saying it SHOULD be, not the way it IS, now or likely back in his time either.  

From what I've read, I think there is one architect working today who follows Behr's maxim, knowingly or not. That is, he honours and inteprets nature first and foremost, and then tries to find the best golf course he can within that context.

The result (again, just from what I've read) is that some find his recent courses a little boring, i.e. too quiet and too subtle and too close to the land/site-natural.

Perhaps that's just 'the way of the world', i.e. we're more interested in form than in meaning, or at least find it harder to see and appreciate meaning than we do form.

I must one day go see and play those so-called 'boring' courses myself, so that I can feel more justified in commenting on them.

But I have a feeling that other architects recognize what this one architect is doing, and value it....but know that if they honour too many 'boring' sites in a row, they soon won't be offered the chance to work on any of the 'great' or 'dramatic' ones that come up.

Peter    

TE - just saw your post now. Perhaps my follow-up post makes what I'm trying to say a little clearer. But it sure is a 'wordy' subject. I'll try to marshall my thoughts a better and post more later.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 03:34:27 PM by Peter Pallotta »

TEPaul

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2008, 04:26:42 PM »
Peter:

Behr certainly did say that architects or artists or architects as artists should find the meaning in the land or he even said things like they should find its meaning in its beauty beneath.

Of course it's always hard to tell how he visualized that actually working out on the course or in architecture.

Here might be one hint;

He did say he thought it was too bad so many architects had come to tilt most all their greens at the oncoming player so the greens may receive the ball better.

Apparently he must've felt that was an unnecessarily artificial contrivance, perhaps something that was becoming standardized, expected and formulaic and it would be better just to allow the golfer to figure out how to get his ball to deal with all kinds of tilts and angles the land contained naturally, particularly on greens and approaches.

It seems to me Behr was becoming either frustrated or disappointed in the accumlation of things that golfers and golf architects were deciding shouldn't be, because natural landforms certainly can be a little bit of everything!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 04:37:28 PM by TEPaul »

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2008, 05:29:54 PM »


"If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas."



Lloyd:

What happens if you have a idea, I have an apple and we give them to a guy who doesn't have a clue?

(this philosophy stuff makes my head hurt)

Anthony

TEPaul

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2008, 05:47:24 PM »
Philosophically that one's extremely simple. You just have a guy with an apple and no idea.

Then, at least in the context of this thread, you just stand back to see what happens. In almost every case he'll either represent it, interpret it or eat it.

But we're sort of back to the original question and problem. If he eats it is that the art of representation of the art of interpretation?

I think what I need to do now is just call up Brian and ask him about this. I haven't talked to him in a long long time and I can almost guarantee with his sense of humor he will be a stop to this nonsense.

Oh well, I guess not. He said he can't even read this DG as it just makes him crazy. That's probably the most intelligent and incisive statement I've heard all day!  ;)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 06:00:49 PM by TEPaul »

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2008, 06:08:48 PM »
Tom:

Brian may be short on stature but sure the hell isn't short on brains or talent!

Anthony


TEPaul

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2008, 06:24:19 PM »
And a sense of humor!!

TEP:
"Read the thread, it's good and it's funny".

Brian:
"No, no no, it makes me crazy."

TEP:
"Oh come on, it's hilarious, with your sense of humor, you'll love it."

Brian:
"No, no NO!! It makes me crazy, crazy CRAZZZY!!"

TEP:
"Are you sure?"

Brain:
"YES, CRAZY, CRAZZY, CRAAAZZY".

TEP:
"Well, alrighteethen. How've you been otherwise?"

Brian:
"I've been just great, how've you been?"

TEP:
"Well, to tell you the truth I've been feeling a little odd lately"

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2008, 06:45:49 PM »
Gee Tony. First you give me a hard time for resurrecting a good old thread. Then a good discussion breaks out. (Although it's mostly over my head...)Then you join in! Now we get Brian Silva quotes.  When do I get my apology?  ;D

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2008, 07:11:17 PM »
...it sure is a 'wordy' subject. I'll try to marshall my thoughts a better and post more later.

Peter

You are pretty much the very last guy on the site I would accuse of writing first and thinking later.

However... if you are going to put more thought into it, you might want to figure out a way to  convince me that a vista, or a dell or a gully has a meaning. It may have a connotation, but almost certainly not a universal one. It may be something some consider to have beauty or an elegance, or a rustic quality, but a meaning? I can't see that. However I am beginning to think that we are in Clinton territory here - what is the meaning of meaning?

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #64 on: January 16, 2008, 10:14:09 PM »
Bill:

I'm sorry. I apologize. You were right. I am wrong. Oh, the shame.


Lloyd:

The meaning of meaning? Now this is getting good. Start a whole new thread with that as the topic.

Anthony

TEPaul

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2008, 10:29:46 PM »
Lloyd:

Then what does the word "meaning", maybe in the context of golf architecture, mean to you?

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2008, 09:05:09 AM »
Lloyd:

Then what does the word "meaning", maybe in the context of golf architecture, mean to you?

Tom
If I can, briefly, start with my field of work.

It is common to ask the writer what is that song about? And I have come to the point where I don't think songs are about things. They are things. Sure, they refer to things, they may even tell a concise story, but that doesn't make them 'about' the story.
Similarly the writer is often asked what his message is - what is the message in that song? Well, I have never had a message.
Some listeners come to me and express confusion that their understanding of a particular song is different to the critic who's review they just read, and are they wrong? Does that make them stupid? Are they 'just not getting it' as we hear far too often around here? Well, there is an old French idea called the death of the author and I subscribe to it -  if the book is in you hands it is your book. Your understanding of the book is correct. The author's role in the relationship is over and he has handed authority over to you. In short - the intention of the author is irrelevant. And frankly, if he did have a 'message' and you didn't 'get it' he can't have put it very well, could he? Great songs are flexible, I think, in the hands of different singers they can seem like different songs, and to the ears of different listeners the possibilities are infinite.

Closer to GCA would be painting and sculpture. And I'm no expert here. Do some critics believe that paintings have messages? Sure. But generally I don't subscribe to that way of thinking. And art that is didactic holds no allure to me, but I think that it would be fair to say that some didactic pieces have a message, but do they, as an entity have a meaning? Most would agree that Picasso's Guernica is 'anti war', but what would we think if Hitler had painted it?

For me, words have meaning. Often many meanings, but context will almost always make the appropriate meaning obvious. Combinations of words can have have complex meanings, or simple.
My Mac dictionary says this 'what is meant by a word, text, concept, or action'. Which I accept as pretty much my understanding. Objects do not have meaning and there are no concepts in nature until man looks at it. So in GCA the stream has no meaning until it is part of the hole and even then I prefer the word significance.

When we start to play around with our language and discuss, Golf Course Architecture, for example, and certain participants in the discussion take liberties with the English language, then we run into trouble. We have two sets of rules to make sense of the dialogue here - the English language and the rules of Golf. If we decide to discuss the role of short grass in the game and some want to call short grass a hazard while others say that we can't do that, because the rules of the game, and therefore our lexicon, specifically designate what can and what can not be a hazard, then we have chaos. Or at the very least added, unnecessary confusion. The 'meaning of Cape Cod' is a grand sounding phrase, concocted to add  extra weight (not needed) to an otherwise sound argument. It is meaningless except to Kelly and those who choose to read a discussion as if it were a poem. If we are to avoid the chaos I refer to we need to call each other on this sort of thing, otherwise we are talking in different languages, and getting nowhere. All I ask is that we use just one.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 09:15:25 AM by Lloyd_Cole »

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2008, 10:12:13 AM »
Lloyd makes a wonderful point and to add to that the meaning of words and phrases change, they are not static, nor universally understood to have the same meaning. Take Cape Cod, for instance. Prior to the digging of the canal, the "start" of Cape Cod was considered to be Plymouth, which now sits on the west side of the canal. Since the canal was completed in 1916 some are of the opinion that Bourne, on the east side of the canal, is now the beginning of Cape Cod. So to suggest there is a Cape Cod bunker is an impossible task since there is no definite boundry of Cape Cod.

I'd also be willing to bet that had Seth Raynor worked on Cape Cod, he would not have designed Cape Cod bunkers, much like he did not design Fishers Island bunkers.

Anthony

« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 10:15:26 AM by Anthony Pioppi »

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2008, 10:52:33 AM »
So to suggest there is a Cape Cod bunker is an impossible task since there is no definite boundry of Cape Cod.

I'd also be willing to bet that had Seth Raynor worked on Cape Cod, he would not have designed Cape Cod bunkers, much like he did not design Fishers Island bunkers.

Anthony

However
There is nothing wrong with, in fact there is everything right with, an architect trying to build his course according to his idea of what Cape Cod is and what might be appropriate or inappropriate there. That's how an architect will express his personality. It's what we expect of them.

I think Kelly's sentiment is fine. His expression of it was confusing.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 10:53:02 AM by Lloyd_Cole »

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2008, 11:09:25 AM »
Lloyd:

The theory that there "is" a singular Cape Cod will only lead to trouble. The Cape Cod of Highland Links in Truro set on a bluff 40 feet above the ocean is not the Cape Cod of Plymouth Country Club, which is heavily wooded with no views of the sea. Would not an architect be best to respond to each individual site rather than trying to define regions or areas?

Anthony


Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2008, 11:17:29 AM »
Would not an architect be best to respond to each individual site rather than trying to define regions or areas?


Of course.


Peter Pallotta

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2008, 11:37:39 AM »
Lloyd – good post. But first off, I’d disagree that we're playing around with language, if you meant that in a negative sense. Yes, most of us every minute of every day (and for convenience sake) simply accept the standard conventions of language and the agreed-upon uses/meanings of words. But then, most of the time most of us are just talking, and not actually communicating. The obvious example is the word 'love': can I possibly know what you really mean by that word if I hear you using it about your music or your partner or your dog? Can you really know what I mean by it, regardless of the context in which I use it? I’d say no, not unless we decided to make some so-called educated guesses about each other; or unless we’d known each other for years and very well; or unless you or I took the time and effort to try to use other words to explain what we meant. So we muddle along, and I'll try to explain what I mean by ‘meaning’ in the context of golf course architecture/Max Behr quote.

A poor analogy:

I believe that a person has an essence and a meaning that is independent of any role he/she has or plays in the world (as an employee or parent or friend or artist or healer). That essence and meaning is inherent in every person, and resides in the innermost part of their being, and is a deeply personal matter between them and their god.  I really can’t know what that essence and meaning is; perhaps after decades together with someone they might share a sliver of it with me. But I do know that a person’s essence and meaning has nothing to do with their usefulness to me (as friend or artist or employee), and certainly not to any ends that are about my own wants and desires.  I try hard nowadays not to even delve too deeply into another person’s meaning – for as someone wrote, it’s the fool who tries to understand how something works by breaking it apart.  

In some similar ways, I think that nature too has an essence and a meaning, with each specific natural site having its own unique stamp of essence and meaning.  I think that this essence and meaning is independent of any role we might want nature to play for us or for our benefit, or of any role that we might force it into serving, as in turning it into a golf course. (By the way, I think that some people who really hate golf, or at least hate seeing a forest or a desert turned into a golf course, might be thinking along those lines, and feel that a forest or a desert’s inherent meaning and essence are being betrayed and dishonoured by the conversion; and I have to admit that a part of me feels that way too.) But alas, we humans will in fact continue to try to use nature to serve our own ends, and so the question remains of how best to honour and respect that nature while having it become our field of play. And when I read Behr’s quote, my first and gut reaction was to feel that this is what he was addressing.

The architect, Behr might be saying, should strive first and foremost and as much as possible to seek out and honour the meaning and essence of the nature (i.e. the natural site) he is working on.  The forms necessary for the game of golf and golf course architecture that we’ve invented should come second, and even then should ideally spring out of that essence instead of being imposed upon it.  In other words, the art of golf course architecture is about trying to interpret what a natural site’s features might mean in terms of the game of golf, not what that game of golf requires/demands that site become.  

The art of golf course architecture lies in discovering new and uniques holes (that fulfill the requirements of the game) in the land itself, even if those holes don’t fit our preconceived or tried-and-tested ideas of what a golf hole must be.  The art does not, or should not, lie in arriving at a site with a handful of shot-testing formulas that are then forced onto the land (whether that forcing requires a lot of earthmoving or not.)  

In short, the art is not about representing/recreating the forms of nature most suited to our golfing needs, but about interpreting natural forms to see what they might be suggesting to us about those very needs.              

As I noted earlier, I find it interesting that an architect who’s become famous for trying to truly honour the land has also been criticized recently for producing some courses that are boring, or at least boring-looking.  Without agreeing that those courses are in fact boring, I’d still ask how it could be otherwise? What I mean is, if one aims to humbly honour a specific site’s meaning and essence by interpreting it to our needs instead of imposing our needs on it, it seems a given that on some natural sites that unique meaning and essence, remaining almost wholly in tact, will not serve our established needs and wants as well as it otherwise might. But then I’d ask, so what? And I’d ask, is not what we might be losing more than outweighed by what we are definitely gaining, i.e. a truer experience of nature (while still playing our game)? And I think that what we also might gain is the subtle and mysterious experience of participating in and interacting with nature as it exists for its own sake.  I know it’s a matter of personal preference, but I want that experience, and it’s important to me.

But that brings us to another of Behr’s concepts that I can’t claim to understand but that is important and meaningful to me, i.e. “the game mind of man”, which I take to refer to our general – and across the board – unwillingness to actually and truly interact with and participate in the natural world as it exists independently of us, and to our pervasive desire to try instead to dominate and conquer it as part of our competitive/gaming desires. Maybe (to borrow from Adam Clayman) it really does come down to Ego; maybe it comes down to Pride.  Either way, I can’t help but feel that we live most of the time with blinders on, and in our own heads, and trying to use people and things for our own needs, and that this is what Behr might be addressing when he speaks about golf (and fly fishing) as sports instead of as games, i.e. as experiences that can potentially require of us a fuller and truer and healthier participation, and by our whole beings at that.  

And still the question remains, can golf course architecture serve in some small way to create experiences that help us to set aside, at least for a few hours, that all pervasive “game mind”, and to see and appreciate nature for what it is, and for what it means, in and of itself. Can the architect lead us along the way through his interpretations of nature, or must he simply follow us in our needs and wants through a representation of nature?

Well – that’s it Lloyd, and much longer than I intended.  If you’ve managed to get down to the end, thanks.  This is what I meant in my first two posts.  Please understand, I don’t mean to try to convince you of anything; I just wanted to try to communicate as clearly as I can what I’m presently thinking and feeling about this subject.

Peter  

TEPaul

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2008, 11:52:45 AM »
Lloyd:

Your post #72 is very amazing to me and thank you for the time and thought to come up with it. It's one of those "printable" (to hard copy) posts I see on here only about once a year.

Obvioiusly you look at things in sort of an existentialist way (sorry to use a word like that but I think most of us can and probably do agree what it means). I think I might too, I don't really know since I've never been much concerned about "isms" and such. I guess I'm a person who's always just thought what I thought and it's never occurred to me if it might be all right or all wrong in my mind or even in others. I guess in reflection and retrospect it may be easier or even better that way, at least for me, but I don't even know that and I'm not even sure I care.

This thread really is something to me---I think at least I have a much better understanding of how a guy like Kelly really does look at architecture and feel about it and probably you too.

That's good to know now and it helps me too. It sort of feels refreshing or releasing or something like that---it feels good.

I think I do know that I'm not much of a fan of standardizations, formulaics and the continuing accummulation of things that fall into the realm of "shouldn't be" or "must not be", and I mean that in the context of golf course architecture. All that seems always so limiting somehow.

But golf is a pretty structured game and golf architecture can be a somewhat unfettered "art" form and I guess that right there will always be a fairly dynamic nexus.

TEPaul

Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2008, 12:10:53 PM »
I think I would also like to add, particularly on the point of not much liking standardizations and formulaics and limitations in the art of golf architecture, that I have known in my life, and in my parents lives, a pretty good number of people very heavily involved in the world of tennis, in its top administrations, in its championship levels, just basically involved in all of it. And there was always a good deal of discussion of all kinds of thing to do with that game (the ramifications of the ball and implements, the nature of the material of the surface, the nature of the scoring system etc) but I do not ever recall much of anything being discussed about the nature or meaning of its playing field in its dimensional limitations or configurations. It just was what it was that way, noone questioned it.

This is no knock on tennis because that arrangement serves its purpose very well in that the ball is vied for in that game. But it is not so in golf and that fundamental distinction I just can't help think can never, EVER, be overestimated as to its importance and what it means in the context of golf course architecture.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 12:12:45 PM by TEPaul »

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Brian Silva on Classic Architecture
« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2008, 02:54:12 PM »
Peter

Firstly, thanks for taking the time for that. I haven't been following the Behr threads (I'm waiting for G Shackleford's book) so I'm lost in a few places but I believe I have hit on what was bothering me and why it doesn't bother you.

And then again... but I'll try.

The word 'meaning' has only one meaning when it is a noun and that it, as stated before - "what is meant by a word, text, concept, or action". I cannot accept that a person has meaning, because a person is not a word a concept or an action.  

I accept the term essence, and I think that looking at things the way you do, it could be useful to see a piece of land as having and essence, if the job of the architect is to find said essence. But doesn't essence imply a unique quality? I cannot see how one tract of forest, while logically inevitably unique, is discernably different, in essence, from it's immediate neighbor to the extent that the designer should lose sleep over said difference.

The word 'meaningful' on the  other hand, the adjective, is a whole different kettle of fish - my mac says  "having a serious, important, or useful quality or purpose" or  "communicating something that is not directly expressed". I have no problem with you telling me that your relationship with your God is a meaningful one. I have no problem with  nature being meaningful to you. But I believe that while a forest may be meaningful to you, it is your relationship with the forest which has meaning, not the forest.

Which brings us to meaninglessness - "having no meaning or significance, having no purpose or reason". It's a very negative word isn't it? connotations of nihilism, cynicism etc. I believe that the forest is meaningless, but not in a negative way. It is significant, can be seen as having an essence, and it has serious, important and useful qualities. But if a tree falls and I'm not there to witness it falling... well, then?