TOC: the Case for the Prosecution

« **Reply #50 on:** November 28, 2007, 10:54:27 AM »

Kalen:

Careful now, or you'll soon find yourself sucked into the maelstrom of the never-ending Huckaby-Mucci debate about the merits of golf holes being dictated solely by the hole itself, or the experience of playing said hole in all of its surrounds and settings (best exemplified by the Huckster's famous depiction of the 6th at Pebble Beach, in which everything about the hole -- the ocean setting, the seals barking in the background, the briney sea air -- is wiped out with a black Sharpie, and we're left with a picture of just the hole itself).

I don't want to speak for Tom, but I'm sure part of the allure of the 1st at TOC is its setting (in the shadows of the R&A, with the old fogies surely watching from behind the big windows, others gathered around the tee, the tee nestled into a corner of the old town), its incomparably wide fairway that surely can't be missed, and the knowledge of what is about to come for the next 17 holes (and that Jones and Arnie and Nicklaus teed off from these very grounds). Besides, one recent thread -- I think the one on re-doing the greensite of the 1st -- suggested the second shot into the current green at TOC isn't exactly a cup-cake, esp. with the wind up and the uncertainty of one hitting one's first iron of the day.

« **Reply #51 on:** November 28, 2007, 10:57:21 AM »

Phil: you spoke for me perfectly - please feel free to do so ANY time.

And Kalen, see, that's the weakness of the Mucci position - you simply can't do all those things you suggest. The hole is what it is, where it is, when it is, how it is.

You can't possibly look at golf this way.... I know Pat can and does, but he's a competitive freak of nature. I had you down for having a soul.

But I do misjudge people all the time.

Sigh... set me right here, my friend.

TH

« **Reply #52 on:** November 28, 2007, 11:03:48 AM »

Does anone have Mackenzie's list of 13 principals? I bet that quite a few of them are violated by the Old Course, even though he lists it as his ideal. I have not been able to find the list on line.

« **Reply #53 on:** November 28, 2007, 11:05:33 AM »

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on November 28, 2007, 10:57:21 AM

Phil: you spoke for me perfectly - please feel free to do so ANY time.

And Kalen, see, that's the weakness of the Mucci position - you simply can't do all those things you suggest. The hole is what it is, where it is, when it is, how it is.

You can't possibly look at golf this way.... I know Pat can and does, but he's a competitive freak of nature. I had you down for having a soul.

But I do misjudge people all the time.

Sigh... set me right here, my friend.

TH

I have a soul damn-it all to hell...

As Phil alluded to, that PB position is exactly what I was thinking with the ocean sharpied out of existence. And thats why I said this may be the only time I'm taking that position, so let me explain further.

Why is TOC is what it is? Because its the oldest course? Because its where Jack, Arnie, Tiger, etc, etc have hallowed its grounds? Because its the birthplace of golf? I guess these are all emotional ploys to get a response. My claim is here, lets look at the intrinsic value of the hole and what it presents to the golfer, and less at the emotional ploys.

As for the approach shot in being a tough shot? I don't doubt that one bit. But I can name endless forgettable munis with a similar shot over a creek, pond, lake, or otherwise that is just as demanding. So to state a penal aspect of the hole as a reason why it has "special-ness" is not going to cut it in my book.

As best as I can tell, its only the emotional responses to the clubhouse, the old farts, and knowing that almost every great of the game teed it up there that gives it "special-ness". But the same can also be said about at Doral. Would your knees knock on the 1st tee there as well knowning who came before you?

« **Reply #54 on:** November 28, 2007, 11:11:04 AM »

Kalen, Kalen, Kalen.

Methinks you need to make the pilgrimage and play the golf course. If you can state these same things AFTER doing so, then I will bow and simply place you over there with Mucci and the other soul-less golfers.

And I hate to use this card - it sucks big time - but you just can't understand this course until you play it. Sorry man, that's just how it is.

Because it is SOOOOOO much more than what you just said....

But oh well, since I don't want to give up on you, how's this:

There is a certain strategy involved for sure, because you have to try and ascertain how far the tee shot will roll out, and how far of a 2nd you want to leave in. And given that the smart golfer plays somewhere out to the left, this isn't all that easy to figure... then there is also the temptation to shorten the hole by going straight at it, which brings OB right into play. Then since it is damn near always windy, there's stategy involved in the 2nd as well... do you play for back of the green? Try to attack a front pin? Heck, bounce it over the burn (which is done all the time and is lots of times the best play)?

That kind of thing does not happen at the local muni, my friend.

And by the way, the green is anything but nondescript.

Of course you'd know all of this if you played it. If you had, you'd also understand how patently silly the comparison to Doral is.

Old Tom Morris and his son Tommy never played Doral.

« **Reply #55 on:** November 28, 2007, 11:25:30 AM »

Huck,

I would like nothing more to take out a 2nd mortgage on the house so I could afford the green fees on a pilgrimmage to TOC.

And just to clarify, I am not claiming that its not natural to have an emotional response at the 1st at TOC.... I am just wanting to dissect the hole itself. I don't doubt for one second that the surrounds are cool.

But...I still don't get what is so unique about the hole itself that merits its to be a "can't miss experience". For the record, I'm calling BS on your statement that holes like that are not found on munis all over America.

I constantly face holes, where I must decide how much to hit off the tee, whether it be driver, 3w, or 5w based on some sort of hazard that I must negotiate on either the tee shot or the approach in. Fairway conditions are apart of that...and yes beleive it or not, the wind blows just the same here in Utah as everywhere else.

I will say that deciding if you will bounce it over the burn is more unique to that side of the pond, but certainly not just unique to hole 1 at TOC.

As for the green, I've played it on my Xbox TW 2007 game, and it was flat and non-descript.

I do think the comparison to other courses and who has played them is valid. The PGA tour plays lots of courses all over the country and most of the games greats have stepped on that 1st tee box, but I doubt that means much to most people.

« **Reply #56 on:** November 28, 2007, 11:46:40 AM »

Kalen:

Sigh. You've fallen into the Mucci trap. I never thought it possible; but your words here can indicate nothing else.

An emotionless golfer could indeed look at it as you have. He could ignore the surroundings, and focus simply on the shots to be played.

I just feel sorry for that sort of golfer, as he misses so much of what this game is really all about.

So please do think about this golf hole as you write here, if it makes you feel better since you seem to indicate you will never play it. Yeah, it's not that big of a deal. Simple drive and 9 iron. Yep, that's all there is too it.

You're not missing anything.

TH

« **Reply #57 on:** November 28, 2007, 12:10:19 PM »

Kalen, FWIW I agree with Sr. Huckaby. You can't understand the feeling of standing on the first tee at the Old Course without being there in person. There is literally nothing like it in the world. It certainly isn't like any first hole on any muni course you've ever played.

For one thing, you stand there and ask yourself, "How DID Ian Baker-Finch manage to hit one OB left?"

For another, it feels like the eyes of the world are upon you as you stand there trying to pull the trigger on that first shot. Actually, it's just all the other players, numerous passers by, skeptical caddies, ladies on their way to the Himalayas..... not to mention all the toffs who might choke on their G&T in the big room of the R&A behind you if you DID pull a Finchy on your tee shot.

You won't need a second mortgage to get there, just a modest home equity loan.

« **Reply #58 on:** November 28, 2007, 12:15:54 PM »

The first fairway ... not the first hole, not the nervousness of your first shot on The Old Course, but the first fairway.

Take a look at an aerial photo looking down the 1st and 18th fairways. What do you notice?

Yep, the 18th has wonderful little mounds, dips, bumps and rolls while the 1st is flat as a pancake.

If one had not known better, you could surmise that the architect (or the town's planning commission) didn't think this game of gawf would last so make the piece of land flat as possible so we could use it as a football pitch, or lawn bowling on Sundays.

« **Reply #59 on:** November 28, 2007, 12:26:29 PM »

In all fairness,

I had a long discussion with Huck offline and I think I understand better what the 1st hole really is. We did come to some sort of agreenance that most of the knee knocking and getting bowled over comes from the ambiance of the place. I tried to look at the hole in the vacuum, but since you can't do that, then its rather "silly" as Huck puts it. But when playing the 1st hole as all this does indeed come into effect, there is no seperating it all out, and that is where its gets interesting.

So perhaps it was just a matter of defining better just exactly what is the 1st hole...

« **Reply #60 on:** November 28, 2007, 12:32:15 PM »

LOL
Kalen, you're a good egg. Heck, I get your point also. It's a fun intellectual exercise to try to separate out what goes into the golf hole in a vacuum and what is added in. I just have yet to play a golf hole in a vacuum and remain intellectually lazy.

Mike makes a very interesting point, btw... one I hadn't thought of... first fairway is very flat, 18th isn't... and it's all one huge field... maybe they did play football on 1!

TH

« **Reply #61 on:** November 28, 2007, 12:37:37 PM »

Quote from: Kalen Braley on November 28, 2007, 12:26:29 PM

In all fairness,

I had a long discussion with Huck offline and I think I understand better what the 1st hole really is. We did come to some sort of agreenance that most of the knee knocking and getting bowled over comes from the ambiance of the place. I tried to look at the hole in the vacuum, but since you can't do that, then its rather "silly" as Huck puts it. But when playing the 1st hole as all this does indeed come into effect, there is no seperating it all out, and that is where its gets interesting.

So perhaps it was just a matter of defining better just exactly what is the 1st hole...

I will tell you a story from my personal experience about how difficult that hole can be.

The first time I played it, I hit a good tee shot up the left center (on the line of the Swilken Burn bridge). I was 125 yards to the pin which was in the front half of the green, maybe 20' behind the burn. I hit a pretty solid 9 iron but a "whiff" of a breeze knocked it down and wham, into the burn.

I don't think I've ever played a more difficult shot than the sand wedge off that tight, tight turf to that pin. I was absolutely thrilled to get up and down, take the bogey, and head to the second tee. Whew.

« **Reply #62 on:** November 28, 2007, 12:46:25 PM »

Bill - you scared me half to death with your description of who'd be watching me tee off if I ever got to TOC, and now you follow-up with that.

Please stop, or else I'm going to risk being the only member of golfclubatlas.com ever to consciously and actively AVOID going to St. Andrews.

Peter

« **Reply #63 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:07:22 PM »

Quote from: Kalen Braley on November 28, 2007, 11:05:33 AM

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on November 28, 2007, 10:57:21 AM
Phil: you spoke for me perfectly - please feel free to do so ANY time.

And Kalen, see, that's the weakness of the Mucci position - you simply can't do all those things you suggest. The hole is what it is, where it is, when it is, how it is.

You can't possibly look at golf this way.... I know Pat can and does, but he's a competitive freak of nature. I had you down for having a soul.

But I do misjudge people all the time.

Sigh... set me right here, my friend.

TH

I have a soul damn-it all to hell...

As Phil alluded to, that PB position is exactly what I was thinking with the ocean sharpied out of existence. And thats why I said this may be the only time I'm taking that position, so let me explain further.

Why is TOC is what it is? Because its the oldest course? Because its where Jack, Arnie, Tiger, etc, etc have hallowed its grounds? Because its the birthplace of golf? I guess these are all emotional ploys to get a response. My claim is here, lets look at the intrinsic value of the hole and what it presents to the golfer, and less at the emotional ploys.

As for the approach shot in being a tough shot? I don't doubt that one bit. But I can name endless forgettable munis with a similar shot over a creek, pond, lake, or otherwise that is just as demanding. So to state a penal aspect of the hole as a reason why it has "special-ness" is not going to cut it in my book.

As best as I can tell, its only the emotional responses to the clubhouse, the old farts, and knowing that almost every great of the game teed it up there that gives it "special-ness". But the same can also be said about at Doral. Would your knees knock on the 1st tee there as well knowning who came before you?

DORAL and the Old Course? Please. Yourself.

« **Reply #64 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:09:04 PM »

Quote from: Gary Slatter on November 28, 2007, 02:07:22 PM

Quote from: Kalen Braley on November 28, 2007, 11:05:33 AM
Quote from: Tom Huckaby on November 28, 2007, 10:57:21 AM
Phil: you spoke for me perfectly - please feel free to do so ANY time.

And Kalen, see, that's the weakness of the Mucci position - you simply can't do all those things you suggest. The hole is what it is, where it is, when it is, how it is.

You can't possibly look at golf this way.... I know Pat can and does, but he's a competitive freak of nature. I had you down for having a soul.

But I do misjudge people all the time.

Sigh... set me right here, my friend.

TH

I have a soul damn-it all to hell...

As Phil alluded to, that PB position is exactly what I was thinking with the ocean sharpied out of existence. And thats why I said this may be the only time I'm taking that position, so let me explain further.

Why is TOC is what it is? Because its the oldest course? Because its where Jack, Arnie, Tiger, etc, etc have hallowed its grounds? Because its the birthplace of golf? I guess these are all emotional ploys to get a response. My claim is here, lets look at the intrinsic value of the hole and what it presents to the golfer, and less at the emotional ploys.

As for the approach shot in being a tough shot? I don't doubt that one bit. But I can name endless forgettable munis with a similar shot over a creek, pond, lake, or otherwise that is just as demanding. So to state a penal aspect of the hole as a reason why it has "special-ness" is not going to cut it in my book.

As best as I can tell, its only the emotional responses to the clubhouse, the old farts, and knowing that almost every great of the game teed it up there that gives it "special-ness". But the same can also be said about at Doral. Would your knees knock on the 1st tee there as well knowning who came before you?

DORAL and the Old Course? Please. Yourself.

Doral has had as many nips and tucks as most of its players, it should be restored to Dick Wilson's perfect flat test.

« **Reply #65 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:32:15 PM »

Quote from: Peter Pallotta on November 28, 2007, 12:46:25 PM

Bill - you scared me half to death with your description of who'd be watching me tee off if I ever got to TOC, and now you follow-up with that.

Please stop, or else I'm going to risk being the only member of golfclubatlas.com ever to consciously and actively AVOID going to St. Andrews.

Peter

Don't worry about it, you'll LOVE it! Honestly. For sure.

It's the most fun I've ever had - golfwise.

« **Reply #66 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:41:24 PM »

Strange, magical, bizarre, and all-too-ordinary things will happen to you when you play The Old Course, piling on top of each other in ways and places you'd never suspect. Trust me.

In my one round there, I:

Topped my drive on #1.

Eagled #9.

Birdied #11.

Made a 9 on #14 (thank you, Hell Bunker)

Parred the Road Hole (that's going on my tombstone).

Had the time of my life shooting 92.

« **Reply #67 on:** November 28, 2007, 07:17:43 PM »

Quote from: Bill_McBride on November 28, 2007, 12:37:37 PM

I will tell you a story from my personal experience about how difficult that hole can be. The first time I played it, I hit a good tee shot up the left center (on the line of the Swilken Burn bridge). I was 125 yards to the pin which was in the front half of the green, maybe 20' behind the burn. I hit a pretty solid 9 iron but a "whiff" of a breeze knocked it down and wham, into the burn.

I don't think I've ever played a more difficult shot than the sand wedge off that tight, tight turf to that pin. I was absolutely thrilled to get up and down, take the bogey, and head to the second tee. Whew.

Bill

I suspect that was the most difficult shot that you succesfully executed. I can recall a similar attempt at North Berwick West on #5 (or was it #7) - the hole fronted by the burn. Those March lies are very tight, especially with the downhill slope to a very firm green. I think Jphn K had a similar shot.

In regards to #1 at TOC, I think Bill's experience above explains why the first is so ideal. It sets the tone for a great round, offers a challenge that is more difficult than you first thought, and ensures that every single player discovers with their second shot what a St Andrews fairway is like, ie a lot more exacting and demanding than a lush lie.

James B

« **Reply #68 on:** November 28, 2007, 08:19:31 PM »

Quote from: James Bennett on November 28, 2007, 07:17:43 PM

Quote from: Bill_McBride on November 28, 2007, 12:37:37 PM

I will tell you a story from my personal experience about how difficult that hole can be. The first time I played it, I hit a good tee shot up the left center (on the line of the Swilken Burn bridge). I was 125 yards to the pin which was in the front half of the green, maybe 20' behind the burn. I hit a pretty solid 9 iron but a "whiff" of a breeze knocked it down and wham, into the burn.

I don't think I've ever played a more difficult shot than the sand wedge off that tight, tight turf to that pin. I was absolutely thrilled to get up and down, take the bogey, and head to the second tee. Whew.

Bill

I suspect that was the most difficult shot that you succesfully executed. I can recall a similar attempt at North Berwick West on #5 (or was it #7) - the hole fronted by the burn. Those March lies are very tight, especially with the downhill slope to a very firm green. I think Jphn K had a similar shot.

In regards to #1 at TOC, I think Bill's experience above explains why the first is so ideal. It sets the tone for a great round, offers a challenge that is more difficult than you first thought, and ensures that every single player discovers with their second shot what a St Andrews fairway is like, ie a lot more exacting and demanding than a lush lie.

James B

I was sort of hoping you (like me) had forgotten that chunk into the wee burn in front of #7 at North Berwick. It was a highly forgettable shot, but not for you obviously! It came after my birdies at #4 and #5....

Hope all is well down under.

« **Reply #69 on:** November 28, 2007, 08:49:37 PM »

You know I believe I'd be willing to defer to TOC in almost any way but what in the holy hell is the deal with these mats I've heard about??

I think any golf course should play off total dirt rather than going to mats.

It's the tackiest thing I've ever heard of.

What about the sanctity of the lie and the "Spirit" of St. Andrews? Can you even imagine what Old Tom or C.B Macdonald or Max Behr would do if they saw a mat at St. Andrews?

A mat at St. Andrews is positively prosecutable!

Maybe Joshua Crane was right and St. Andrews should go to the bottom of the list.

« **Reply #70 on:** November 28, 2007, 08:52:24 PM »

OK, here is an original one...

How about the near constant launching/landing of RAF fighter jets from the nearby base....surely, this slightly distracts from the ambience of the place.

Bart

« **Reply #71 on:** November 28, 2007, 11:42:01 PM »

Quote from: Peter Pallotta on November 28, 2007, 12:46:25 PM

Bill - you scared me half to death with your description of who'd be watching me tee off if I ever got to TOC, and now you follow-up with that.

Please stop, or else I'm going to risk being the only member of golfclubatlas.com ever to consciously and actively AVOID going to St. Andrews.

Peter

Well, I hope you don't slice, because that's nothing compared to the danger of hitting a slice off the first tee onto the Himalayas green, where you could brain an 80 year old woman or an 8 year old child. It is simply amazing how far left some people aim...you'd swear they were trying to hit over the fence and take out a window on one of the buildings across the street!

There, have I guaranteed one less person to compete with for tee times in the future?

« **Reply #72 on:** November 29, 2007, 02:05:30 AM »

Quote from: TEPaul on November 28, 2007, 08:49:37 PM

You know I believe I'd be willing to defer to TOC in almost any way but what in the holy hell is the deal with these mats I've heard about??

I think any golf course should play off total dirt rather than going to mats.

It's the tackiest thing I've ever heard of.

What about the sanctity of the lie and the "Spirit" of St. Andrews? Can you even imagine what Old Tom or C.B Macdonald or Max Behr would do if they saw a mat at St. Andrews?

A mat at St. Andrews is positively prosecutable!

Maybe Joshua Crane was right and St. Andrews should go to the bottom of the list.

TomP

But the cretins at the Links Trust only charge something like $100 during the winter. How can you complain about that? Why did it take two pages for someone to come up with the dreaded mats? This is surely a LARGE tick against the ole gal.

Kalen, don't fall for the AwsHuckster's heckling. #9 is a poor thing and should have been put out of its misery long ago. Its odd how its ok to build tees off the course, yet not try to improve the course. The mysteries of TOC.

My beef about TOC is that the visitor doesn't get to at least have a peak inside the clubhouse. What gratitude is bestowed upon the visitor? A long walk away from the nearest pub. Its not on I tell you.

Ciao

« **Reply #73 on:** November 29, 2007, 02:13:13 AM »

Quote from: Sean Arble on November 29, 2007, 02:05:30 AM

My beef about TOC is that the visitor doesn't get to at least have a peak inside the clubhouse.

Come on Sean, TOC doesn't have a clubhouse unless you count the one over near The New.

« **Reply #74 on:** November 29, 2007, 07:38:20 AM »

"TomP
But the cretins at the Links Trust only charge something like $100 during the winter. How can you complain about that? Why did it take two pages for someone to come up with the dreaded mats? This is surely a LARGE tick against the ole gal."

They charge $100 to play the course with mats??

Well, boorah for that. I wouldn't pay $10 to play TOC off a mat, and it's not exactly like I ain't got the money either. And I wouldn't pay $1 to play off a mat anywhere else.

That's the worst thing I've ever heard of. It's no damn difference than going to bed with a life-sized plastic doll of Heidi Klum!

News:

Phil McDade

Tom Huckaby

Jason Topp

Kalen Braley

Tom Huckaby

Kalen Braley

Tom Huckaby

Bill_McBride

Mike Benham

Kalen Braley

Tom Huckaby

Bill_McBride

Peter Pallotta

Gary Slatter

Gary Slatter

Bill_McBride

Rick Shefchik

James Bennett

Bill_McBride

TEPaul

Bart Bradley

Doug Siebert

Sean_A

Mike Benham

TEPaul