[John Kavanaugh]

For those of you who know a little history about Lang and Hurdzan I think this little video might give insight to why the 2nd at Erin Hills will not be changed.  You can't roll over evertime someone is made to work a bit harder than the average man.

http://tinyurl.com/36glpa

[Peter Pallotta]

David Botimer's posts were very interesting in light of my impression that what's made Bandon a success is the "1%" of golfers (and their repeat play).  The 14th was too controversial even for that 1%? If so, that's reason enough for me to understand the sentiments of Mike C and John K -- something unique is being changed...and how can that be looked on positively?

Peter

 

[Mike_Cirba]

You know, the more I think about this, the more it frustrates me...

When a single controversial hole can meet with approval from a cast of diverse characters (in terms of both distance, playing ability, and personality) such as Huckaby, Matt Ward, Bob Crosby, John Kavanaugh, Tim Bert, and Chris Brauner, then what the hell is so wrong with it that needs changing??  

[John Kavanaugh]

You know, the more I think about this, the more it pisses me off...

When a single controversial hole can meet with approval from a cast of diverse characters (in terms of both distance, playing ability, and personality) such as Huckaby, Matt Ward, Bob Crosby, John Kavanaugh, Tim Bert, and Chris Brauner, then what the hell is so wrong with it that needs changing??  

This is why I have for years been trying to change golfers, not golf architecture.

[Peter Pallotta]

John K asked this one way earlier on, I'd ask it another way:

If the "1%" of golfers who make Bandon engendered this change, any guesses on how they'll feel about a couple of blind holes?

Or am I comparing apples and oranges, and the apples aren't even ripe yet?

Peter

[Chip Gaskins]

I played it three times over labor day weekend.  Made birdie-par-par.  All with birdie putt inside 15 feet.  I hit driver off the back tee short left of the green (actually pin high the time I made birdie) so I obviously think short left is the proper way to play it.  With that said my playing partner hit a 4 iron short and a pitching wedge on the green for a two putt par.  

I do think the green should be expanded though.  I can say I think I got lucky and that hitting the green even with a short pitch shot can be almost impossible.

Chip

[Dan Kelly]

Just musing:

Who is there to object to this, in what passes for golf's mass media, who isn't already working with Mr. Keiser or maybe hoping to someday?

[Tim Bert]

Each of the four of us made at least one par (the lowest handicapper had one birdie as well.)  Each of the four of us made at least one double bogey as well (no one made worse than triple.)

OK, so I just re-checked my scores and only two of the four made par or better at least once.  

I have it on record from another that has played the hole 6,7,6 in three rounds that he wouldn't change a thing either.  Probably because he wants to par it next time and doesn't want to hear me tell him it was "dumbed-down" when he does.  

   

[Eric_Terhorst]

For those of you who know a little history about Lang and Hurdzan I think this little video might give insight to why the 2nd at Erin Hills will not be changed.  You can't roll over evertime someone is made to work a bit harder than the average man.

http://tinyurl.com/36glpa

John, good video, and I hope you're right about the willingness of Lang and Hurdzan to stand up to the USGA when they come-a-callin with a US Open.  What will 25-yd fairways everywhere do to that course?

Not that I like the 2nd and Erin Hills.  The 14th at Bandon Trails is 10x more fun to play and has much more going for it strategically, as C. Brauner describes.  

But is adding 6 feet to the width of the green and softening the contours a little bit on one side really going to change all that much for most of us?  It will still be a fun, challenging, thought-provoking golf hole imo.

[Scott Stambaugh]

I don't feel there is a problem with the green.  The only thing I would look at improving would be left of the green.

The great thing about being around the greens at all the Bandon courses is the various options you have to finish the hole if you've missed the green.  To me, left of #14 offers no options- its putter only.  And being asked to putt into what feels/looks like a skateboard halfpipe does not make it any more enjoyable.

I was there a few weeks ago with a 100+ Superintendents,  all average to above average players.  The hole location on #14 the day we played the Trails was way up front- very difficult.  It was far and away the talk of the 19th hole.  Most everyone I talked to about the hole was complaining about the same thing- to play a decent shot left of the green with a front hole location was impossible.  (One guy in my group did play his drive 50 yards short and left of the green and proceeded to hole a bunker shot for his 7!)

I haven't made enough trips around BT to have formed a solid opinion, but I would start with improving the playability left of the green.

SS

[David Botimer]

In fact, of all tee shots witnessed hit to the lower right fairway during a north to south wind (again probably hundreds), I've seen maybe one par, while with a south to north wind but a handful of pars.  Essentially all the eagles, birdies and pars come with tee shots to the upper left fairway, or to the green.

A really interesting perspective there.  How hard is it to hold the left side of the fairway?

Excuse my quick and dirty photoshop but do you think the hole would be considered more "fair" if the right half of the fairway wasnt there?  

How hard to hold the left side of fairway?  A great challenge for a 10 handicapper with useful width of driving area about 10 yards.  30 + foot drop from left to right side of fairway.

Best way to play hole?  From green tee (300 yard, elevation adjusted 265 yards) so with summer wind VERY driveable, often with 3 wood to left side of fairway.  If unable to get near green on drive for second shot.....front to middle pin aim for flat spot 35 yards short of center to front edge (about a 20 yard landing area) and putt from there; or with back pin = chip to collection area and putt onto green.  If you are 10 handicap or higher, play to a par of 5 and manage shot selection accordingly.

Would it be more fair with no right side of fairway?  Not at all, considering any shot about 25 yards off the left edge of fairway ends up down there.

[Norbert P]

 Thanks to David Botimer for reporting on the way it plays on a daily basis.  It gives the big picture. Not everybody that plays Bandon is a sharpshooter or have a high and sophisticated interest in golf architecture. From DB's post, the real problem is the back and forth and that's what's being addressed with tinkering.  Old Tom tinkered, Crump adjusted, Sutherland added, and Ross was incessantly reshaping. What's the big deal if Coore comes back to tweak it? He's the right man for the job and kudos to Mike K for respecting Bill to make the adjustments.
  The hole is very cool, I just wish I had the length to go for it like everybody here seems to do, but I don't so I milk my way up to it.
  The hole can create a hold up from the tee as there's a wait for the green to clear (if a long hitter is in the group) and watching those ants out there chip and chip about can seem to go on unmercilessly long.  The dune ridge is a nice spot for pictures, though.  (As Jeff Doerr has shown)

Scott Stambaugh, interesting point. I've played to the front of the green (2nd shot) figuring that missing long will set me in that swale, and not down the back side of horrors, then the freaky putt up the half-pipe.

 Would taking a couple of trees away from the end of the dune ridge toward the green encourage more drivers to go left? Add a new strategy or would it make it too easy for the big hitters?  

[Dan Smoot]

Having played it twice, I do not trip over the fact that bogey is like par for me on this hole.  I LOVE it because of the difficulty and CHALLENGE.  The tee shot is so demanding because of the slope to the right.  I tried to follow directions given here the first time by trying to play the left side, into the trees/rough I went.

I think of this hole and compare it to No. 6 at PD which also demands the tee shot to a specific side of the fairway.  You can be in the fairway and simply not have much chance for par if you are on the wrong side hitting into the narrow side of the green.  However, the slope at BT feeding the ball right makes it much more difficult.

Having played it twice, I really feel the risk of hitting it too far left with MY driver is just not worth it.  For me, I think I should hit the longest club that I can count on keeping it in the left side of the fairway.  Then settle on a 9I to wedge for the left third of the green no matter where the pin is located.  If the pin is back right, then so be it and hope for a two putt.

I would be interested in hearing from David to know what he has observed as the most consistently successful strategy regardless of the skill of the player.

I often thought a bunker beyond the back right pin position would be penalty enough without having a ball head down the hill.  How many times has he observed players pick up when the ball goes there.

[Joe Bentham]

I'm not sure if the changes will result in any new pin locations.  The bulk of the work will be softening of the left green slope, making the putt from the collection area manageable.  Theoretically it allows the player who missed his tee shot to the right a fighting chance at par.  
The hole is enjoyable for me because it forces players out of their comfort zone.  The shot for many from the right side of the fairway is away from the green. To a front pin the play from the fairway can be a putt that doesn't make it to the green.  All kinds of cool stuff.
Good players don't have much problems with the hole.  Mainly because they can keep a ball on the left side of the fairway and they can keep a wedge on line.
IMO the change is a product of public opinion.  People can't not talk about that hole and most of the talk (whether right or wrong, informed or not) is negative.  The trails never gets its due (save the 'its what ever in the top 100' rebuttals) because of it.
I support the change.  From a public relations (sorry fellas the GCA crowd is the minority, even at Bandon) stand point and an architectural one as well.  The player who misses right off the tee should have a chance at an up and down if his second shot is well thought out.  As is now the best options are hit it in the greenside bunker or bump it backwards up onto the the left fairway shelf, neither ever considered by most.

[John Kavanaugh]

IMO the change is a product of public opinion.

How does public opinion make it to Keisers ear?  

I do not believe the shot from the right side is any harder than the shot from the right side of the 10th at Riviera.

[Sean_A]

I will ask again.  If the front right greenside bunker were not there, is it a possibility to kick the ball onto the green?  From the pic it looks like it would be a very difficult shot, but doable with a bit of creativity and experience.  By all accounts its impossible to carry the bunker and hold the green.  While this is perfectly reasonable, its not ideal.  The problem with this sort of deal is that outcome is very predictable: hit it down the right and the approach will go left.  If most of the drives finish down the right I think there is room to fool the first timer (or cocky player) with tempting him to pull the wedge and try to hit a floater and reward the chap who looks for another way once he finds himself between the rock and the hard place.  Why? - because he is recognizing the predicament and understands his limitations.  The recovery is the most exciting shot in golf and imo there should always be a shot at the so called recovery if one is in the fairway.  It may not be a likely recovery, but its better than an impossible shot in which the outcome is a given.    

Personally, I don't like the idea of softening the left side of the green because its makes it that much easier for the smashmouth golfer to take serious advantage of his length if he can keep it straight.  It sounds like a great tee shot pretty much guarantees the par.  It would be nice to keep the smashmouther working a bit for par rather than making it easier and probably creating a load of birdie opportunities.

Finally, I must say that if a hole like this divides people so sharply, perhaps any decisions on making changes should be put on hold.  It isn't clear what, if anything should be done so it may be best to do nothing for a while.  In an ideal world, I would hang fire.

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

I agree about waiting because when this is "fixed" they will have to move on to the next "problem".  One way to stop the waits on the tee would be to get rid of the shuttle from 13 green to 14 tee.

Could anyone list other concessions that have been made because the golfing public is a bunch of babies?

[Rich Goodale]

I'm with Sean and John here.  Hang fire.  Maybe this is the first of a new genre of great golf holes, the 325 yard par-5!?

I haven't played there, but it looks like a golf hole to me, and as 2's are seemingly as possible as pocket-balls, vive la difference!  Softening the hole (as seems likely) is yet another bit of groveling from Bandon to the pusillanimous expectations of the ignorami.  As Deep Throat said, follow the money.....

[JESII]

I agree about waiting because when this is "fixed" they will have to move on to the next "problem".  One way to stop the waits on the tee would be to get rid of the shuttle from 13 green to 14 tee.

??

The group in front had to walk as well, so the differential hasn't changed...in theory...

[John Kavanaugh]

I believe that traffic flow theory will show that sudden changes in speed does cause dissruptions in flow.  I am positive that the shuttle ride results in longer waits on the tee.  The hurry up and wait syndrome.

[JESII]

I'll concede...I have never been to Bandon or built a road...

[BCrosby]

One of the cool things about the 14th is that it supports the TEP Conjecture. For you newbies, the TEP Conjecture states:

Great strategic holes have wide scoring spreads.

The 14th at BT is a textbook example of that.

My hope is that the proposed changes don't end up narrowing those spreads.

Bob

[Dan Kelly]

For you newbies, the TEP Conjecture states:

Great strategic holes have wide scoring spreads.

The 14th at BT is a textbook example of that.

Bob --

Maybe I'm dense, but I'm not seeing how the 14th at Bandon Trails is a "strategic hole."

Unless I've missed something (always possible!), everyone agrees that there is ONE ideal tee shot -- as far as possible down the left-hand side. And everyone agrees that a deftly played second shot is then required, from anywhere off the green -- with no bailout area that promises an "easy bogey."

What's strategic about that?

Dan

[Steve Kline]

By all accounts its impossible to carry the bunker and hold the green.

Not true. My PW from the middle of the fairway carried the right bunker and stayed on the green.

Dan -as far down the left is not the only way to play the hole. I made par by laying up to the middle of the fairway.

[Tom Jefferson]

Charlie;

My rule when approaching the green, and I use the word rule in the strongest sense, is to miss the green left and short of hole high.  

My goal off the tee is a shot to about 60 yards short of the green, and as far left as I am able.  If I drive right, I play into the green to finish left and a bit short.  Always.

I play the hole completely defensively.  Even when I drive well and thus can play toward the hole (wherever it's cut), I do ANYTHING necessary to stay left if I mishit.  

Complete defense.

I thought the play into that hole durning the mid am qualifying was pretty well thought out....alot of layup off the tee and full wedges (+/-) into the green, with a very approachable cup, in the rear of the green, and with little wind for the most part.  KInda like Steve Kline suggests. Still there were 8s, 9s, 10s on the card.

I trust Mr. Keiser's judgement and Bill Coore's wisdom and skill, and expect that the result will not be 'dumbed down', simply a bit more playable in the front of the green, and slightly more forgiving when playing from the left green surround.  I expect the hole to continue to have some controversy, lots of respect and conversation afterward, some head scratching and cussing....I do not believe the character or challenge will change radically, as the hole simply has too much going for it besides the simple issue of the left edge of the green.


All the best for Thanksgiving!

Tom

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()