The incomplete golf resume

« **Reply #50 on:** September 12, 2007, 02:37:30 PM »

I remain confused (no surprise).

Is the idea here completion of one's architectural education, or can't-miss experiences?

Here in CA, if it's the former, then I'd go with Pasatiempo for exactly the reasons Mark just stated. But if it's the latter - as seems to be stated in the first post in the topic - then it has to be Pebble Beach, because that is a golf experience that simply must be done in one's lifetime, education or no education.

So which is it?

« **Reply #51 on:** September 12, 2007, 03:06:19 PM »

Huck:

You're asking me (and to some extent Shivas) to recall a conversation about a potential thread idea after two solid days of 63 holes of golf (most of it walking), AND plenty of Wisconsin-brewed hops. It's not that easy, man!

I'll stand by Shivas' earlier comment -- it is, after all, a golf architecture site.

As for your direct question, I'd say lean toward the former -- one's golf architecture education.

(But I'm also pretty much like you -- whereas someone like Mucci, e.g., might not think much of what you have to traverse to get from fairway to green at Pebble Beach's 8th, you think the carry is pretty cool to look at. So do I...broadly speaking. Setting, to me, has always been an interesting and integral part of architecture -- not the primary source of enjoyment, but of a part. And other factors might weigh in, as well -- not related to this thread, but I can't imagine playing Merion without thinking about what Jones, Hogan et al. did there, and that would probably add to the experience of playing the course.)

But, primarily, architecture. (Brat-guy may differ, which is fine...the whole conversation is kind of fuzzy....)

« **Reply #52 on:** September 12, 2007, 03:10:30 PM »

Phil:

I wasn't asking you to recall anything. I'm just trying to make sense of a very interesting thread.

But if it is all about golf course architecture, then I just have to say... never mind. I'm wholly uninterested in the subject. But I guess it would be Pasatiempo here in CA.

Now if you want to talk about playing this game... now THAT would be a fun conversation.

« **Reply #53 on:** September 12, 2007, 03:36:04 PM »

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on September 12, 2007, 03:10:30 PM

But if it is all about golf course architecture, then I just have to say... never mind. I'm wholly uninterested in the subject.

So Huck,

Why exactly do you come to this site then?

You aren't one of those dastardly access hounds are you?

« **Reply #54 on:** September 12, 2007, 03:38:40 PM »

Kalen:

I may be that, I may just have a wholly different definition of "golf course architecture" than damn near everyone in here.

To me that encompasses development and land usage issues that us not in the business rarely know squat about.

But I've made this rant hundreds of times in here... if one plays the game one ought to evaluate how a course plays, not how it is designed. I remain wholly uninterested in that, as I define it.

TH

« **Reply #55 on:** September 12, 2007, 03:55:30 PM »

I thought so, I would imagine you are backed up with requests for GCA boys wanting to play your most holy Saint Teresa..

I do dig what you are saying...but doesn't how a course play depend almost wholly on how it is designed and built?? Sure there are weather/conditioning variations, but as long as what the original architect puts in place, stays in place, then that is the genesis of it all correct??

« **Reply #56 on:** September 12, 2007, 03:58:45 PM »

Santa Teresa remains above all of your heads.

But you missed my point completely. In the interest of not mucking up this thread, I'll take it off line.

TH

« **Reply #57 on:** September 12, 2007, 04:00:21 PM »

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on September 12, 2007, 03:58:45 PM

Santa Teresa remains above all of your heads.

But you missed my point completely. In the interest of not mucking up this thread, I'll take it off line.

TH

Huck,

Is Saint Teresa the name of the chick that gets all you buds on for free at Pebble Beach?

« **Reply #58 on:** September 12, 2007, 04:14:01 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on September 12, 2007, 04:00:21 PM

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on September 12, 2007, 03:58:45 PM
Santa Teresa remains above all of your heads.

But you missed my point completely. In the interest of not mucking up this thread, I'll take it off line.

TH

Huck,

Is Saint Teresa the name of the chick that gets all you buds on for free at Pebble Beach?

No, but it ought to be.

For those wondering what the hell John is talking about, there at least used to be one woman in charge of arranging comp rounds for course rating panelists at Pebble Beach. I've never done it myself, but other regulars here have, and when they told me who to call if I ever wanted to do it, I passed her name on to some others here. I have no idea if she still exists or if this policy does....

« **Reply #59 on:** September 12, 2007, 04:43:32 PM »

Quote from: Rick Shefchik on September 11, 2007, 02:47:02 PM

The Quarry? A big, tough, option-filled golf course. Probably the best example of how good a new course can be in a rugged wooded setting. On the other hand, if I were going to pick one course, the Quarry's newness knocks it down a rung or two in a state filled with old classics.

And that's the problem -- I can't pick one old classic and say, "This is the course you have to play in Minnesota." Maybe my gopher brethren can do better than I have. I'd love to hear what they think, because I don't think there's a local consensus on the best or most significant course in Minnesota.

Rick --

As you know better than anyone except possibly my wife and daughters (apologies to all of you!), I haven't played a number of the classics in Minnesota.

From what I do know, and just from an architectural standpoint (ignoring the courses' competitive history), I don't think I've seen anything unprecedented in Minnesota.

But if I were going to choose two courses (one private, one public) for modern golfers to play, among those I have played, I'd go with Oak Ridge and The Quarry.

Oak Ridge -- to show people how much FUN a relatively straightforward, compactly routed golf course on a nice, rolling (but really not SPECTACULAR) piece of land can be.

The Quarry -- to show people (via holes 9 and 13) that LENGTH is not necessary to produce great golf holes, even on a modern course.

« **Reply #60 on:** September 12, 2007, 05:51:12 PM »

Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on September 11, 2007, 03:32:34 PM

Tim, with all due respect, this is my drunken theorizing that has been pilfered into a thread by the esteemed Mr. McDade , so trust me...the discussion was about courses that are "must play" additions to your understanding of GCA, ie, courses that you will have lost a real opportunity

So Shivas, is it Lawsonia or Erin Hills for Wisconsin?

« **Reply #61 on:** September 12, 2007, 11:31:39 PM »

Jim:

It's his answer for Illinois that you really ought to be asking him about.....

« **Reply #62 on:** September 13, 2007, 12:09:35 AM »

For publics, I'll name a few. Some of these I haven't played.

California- I'm going to have to go with Pebble Beach here, despite my feelings about Pasatiempo. One cannot call their golf life complete without playing it.

NY- Bethpage Black. I can't think of another public course in NY that comes close as a must.

Wisconsin- I think I would go with Lawsonia.

Nevada-Shadow Creek. Simply because of the uniqueness of the place.

Hawaii-Kapalua, Plantation.

Virginia- Cascades. An absolute no brainer.

South Carolina- Probably Harbor Town.

North Carolina- This is tough. Sure Pinehurst seems the logical choice, but what Strantz did at TR seems a great case study.

Texas- The Rawls. What one of the best can do with a blank canvass.

Oregon-PD. What one of the best can do with a great piece of property.

Florida- Sawgrass. What can be done, both good and bad, with modern equipment and a less than ideal site.

New Jersey- Atlantic City CC.

I tried to come up with one in Penn. but all the greats are private and I can't think of any that are public. I'm sure there are some worthy of a look.

« **Reply #63 on:** September 13, 2007, 01:21:39 AM »

Well if this is the definition then I guess I can understand the comment from Shivas about my vote for Cuscowilla. Aside from the obvious in GA, is there a public course there that fits the bill? No idea.

So with this new definition, I'll give a vote for Black Mesa in NM.

Why from a GCA standpoint? Great example of how a modern course can play without OB and be an exciting and fun challenge. Perfect showcase course for the recovery shot ... which I'm all for

I know some will disagree with this (right Gib

), but thus far in my short golfing experience ... this course ranks right up there in the learning experience department.

Quote from: Phil McDade on September 12, 2007, 03:06:19 PM

Huck:

You're asking me (and to some extent Shivas) to recall a conversation about a potential thread idea after two solid days of 63 holes of golf (most of it walking), AND plenty of Wisconsin-brewed hops. It's not that easy, man!

I'll stand by Shivas' earlier comment -- it is, after all, a golf architecture site.

As for your direct question, I'd say lean toward the former -- one's golf architecture education.

(But I'm also pretty much like you -- whereas someone like Mucci, e.g., might not think much of what you have to traverse to get from fairway to green at Pebble Beach's 8th, you think the carry is pretty cool to look at. So do I...broadly speaking. Setting, to me, has always been an interesting and integral part of architecture -- not the primary source of enjoyment, but of a part. And other factors might weigh in, as well -- not related to this thread, but I can't imagine playing Merion without thinking about what Jones, Hogan et al. did there, and that would probably add to the experience of playing the course.)

But, primarily, architecture. (Brat-guy may differ, which is fine...the whole conversation is kind of fuzzy....)

« **Reply #64 on:** September 13, 2007, 08:37:13 AM »

Quote from: Phil McDade on September 12, 2007, 11:31:39 PM

Jim:

It's his answer for Illinois that you really ought to be asking him about.....

Since Chicago is all of thirty minutes from Wisconsin and I know Shivas has played a fair share of Wisconsin courses, I value his opinion. Plus, we all know The Jans is the "must play" in Illinois

.

« **Reply #65 on:** September 13, 2007, 09:59:23 AM »

Dingdingdingding! We have a winner.....

« **Reply #66 on:** September 14, 2007, 08:14:04 AM »

Are you beating him to the bottom of the Crown? That is impressive. He knows so many people it blows me away and has played nearly everywhere imaginable. He is also one of the funniest, nicest, most giving people you will ever meet. Ask him about the Black swan at Kohler. JB, it's just Dave being Dave. I wouldn't sweat it and just have fun.

« **Reply #67 on:** September 14, 2007, 05:51:26 PM »

Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on September 13, 2007, 10:23:29 PM

Quote from: Jim Franklin on September 12, 2007, 05:51:12 PM
Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on September 11, 2007, 03:32:34 PM

I also remember walking off Erin Hills and thinking "I've never played anything even remotely like this in my life".

now there's a bold statement...I wodner if anyone else agrees with it

« **Reply #68 on:** September 14, 2007, 11:49:56 PM »

While I like Wintonbury Hills a lot, I don't know if it fits the bill of the original question as well as Shennecossett does. But once WH matures a bit more (four years is not quite enough for the true nature of a golf course to be exposed, in my opinion), perhaps it would usurp Shennecossett.

Then again, if we'll accept nine-hole courses in this list, perhaps Fenwick might sneak in...

« **Reply #69 on:** September 15, 2007, 01:29:04 PM »

I think that World Woods Pine Barrens needs to be on this list. I've only played in once (and was overwhelmed on that day by the golf course) but would really like to go back, play 3 or 4 more rounds, and figure it out.

I was told by another GCA'er that Rolling Oaks, the other course at World Woods, is also excellent. If it was a reasonable distance from home I wouldn't hesitate to make this facility my home course.

News:

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Phil McDade

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Kalen Braley

Tom Huckaby

Kalen Braley

Tom Huckaby

John Kavanaugh

Tom Huckaby

Dan Kelly

Jim Franklin

Phil McDade

David Stamm

Patrick Kiser

Jim Franklin

Phil McDade

Jim Franklin

PThomas

Tim Gavrich

Mike Golden