[Joe Bentham]

Tim--
Of course its a lesser site then 100 foot bluffs covered with sand dunes and gorse that overlook the pacific.  Great point.  Who said it was better?  Why do they have to be compared?  I'm guessing wherever you play the majority of your golf doesn't compare to Bandon Dunes.  So what?

Michaels--
The 'new' green for #1 at Bandon Dunes was built out of a desire to have less windshields busted in the parking lot.  We played to it for about a month last season.  They've planted beach grass across the new section of fairway this year and have totally abandoned the idea of an alternate green.  The idea that it was built because the original green was some how lacking is silly.

[Mike Hendren]

Joe, I promise I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but it seems to me a reasonable chance of busting windshields off the first tee would be a negative.

Mike

[Jordan Wall]

I would not be surprised to see Chambers Bay and Bandon Dunes pass each other in the night as CB migrates up the GW Modern list and BD slides down.

On the split ten rounds test, I'd play CB 8 times.  

Mike

That comment surprises me.  I'd place a good handful of holes from BD higher than Chamber's best.

16 at Bandon is all world.  #5 is epic.  #4....#14.....#1 to the old green.

Chambers has very cool one shotters.  It is a very cool setting.  It is almost too epic for my discriminating tastes, however.  I like a little mix of intimate and at Chambers you always feel exposed.  Bandon Dunes is more charming, IMHO.

Until the turf at Chambers Bay matures, I think it is preposterous to claim it is a better course than Bandon.  

It just isn't there yet...

Michael,

I have never played Bandon Dunes but find it hard to believe there are four holes better than either #14 or #16 at Chambers Bay on the course.  Both those holes are just so good.  I would say all world, but I haven't played all world.  We'll just call em amazing holes for now.  For four holes at BD to be better, they would just have to be sooooo good.  Maybe one or two that are as good, but not four that are better.

I guess I need to get to Bandon and see for myself!

Cheers,
Jordan



p.s.  Make sure to call or something if you decide to take a little drive North...

[Joe Bentham]

Joe, I promise I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but it seems to me a reasonable chance of busting windshields off the first tee would be a negative.

Mike

Its never reasonable, its just bad golf.  I've seen the copula on the pro shop hit.  I've seen a tee ball off the back tee scatter a group on the putting green.  Not sure what your point is.   The golf hole was there first and the strengths of said golf hole have nothing to do with how far a slice can go in a left to right headwind.

[Tim Pitner]

Tim--
Of course its a lesser site then 100 foot bluffs covered with sand dunes and gorse that overlook the pacific.  Great point.  Who said it was better?  

Um, Mr. Hendren, for one.  I guess I'm a little defensive about the original course at Bandon Dunes.  I see it knocked here all the time.  Then, I see Chambers praised as the next great course and I'm looking at the photos and wondering, "why?"  It apparently is supposed to play like a links but to my eyes, doesn't look like a links at all.  It looks like a bit of a hodge-podge, exemplified by the par 3 with all the sandy waste area to the front and right and then a pot bunker in the back left.  Obviously, I haven't played the course so it may well be something special, but lots of people on here are heaping praise on the course without playing it and I'm just not seeing what they're seeing.  

[Garland Bayley]

...but lots of people on here are heaping praise on the course without playing it and I'm just not seeing what they're seeing.  

Who dares heap praise on the course without playing it?!?!
Mucci would be furious!

Seriously Tim, who is doing this. Dick Daley didn't play it, but he walked it. I don't know who else you would be talking about.

John Kirk and some others panned it, but they play the way back tees and it makes for a much harder walk.

Who Tim, Who?

[Tim Pitner]

Garland,

I confess I was thinking of Mr. Daley, but I really don't think he was the only one.  

[RJ_Daley]

Tim, If I'm the one you are going after who hasn't played it yet... that is a valid remark or opinion for you to hold.  

But, I walked it pretty thoroughly over a several hour period.  It was a few weeks from allowing very limitted play on April 25th when I was there.  All I can say, is I think I know enough about GCA and construction to say it is a damn good course, one of the very best I have had the pleasure to see, and I've seen several modern highly acclaimed courses at this same stage of grow-in pre-opening, or just after the were open...  The workmanship creating the strategy and options that are apparent off tees and through craftily shaped FWs are nearly endless, and I have no doubt many secrets that would only reveal themselves in alternate weather conditions on many subsequent opportunities to play, because it is a complex design.  I wouldn't say anyone could absorb enough of this course to say they understand the course well unless they've played there many times, IMHO.  

CB is manufactured, in as good of manner to emmulate the dunesland sort of courses as any I've seen.  That includes a much closer comparable, Whistling Straits.  I think anything at Bandon is not as valid of a comparable as WS or its Irish course and perhaps Arcadia Bluffs.  The greens complexes alone are creative, full of complexity and I love the mowing scheme of mowing short FW length fescue wide around the greens offering mutliple ways to attack a multitude of pins through a multitude of cool putting surface contouring.

If you get to play CB and don't think you are on something very special, just from a craftsmanship POV alone, with the run-on tees, the choices of created/shaped corridors and contours to play to, the ideas that come to you as to how to go at some of these greens, I'd have to wonder where you'd find your ideal and what it is you even like about the game in general.  Because it is all there at CB.

If a person couldn't get their golf groove on at CB, I really would check their pulse.    

[Garland Bayley]

Tim,

I watch the treads on CB pretty closely, because it is kind of in my back yard. I have not noticed anything other than response to like or dislike of the pictures from those who haven't played it. The list of those who have played it is growing fairly quickly for a course out of the mainstream golf areas of the country.

[RJ_Daley]

I also don't think we should overlook the impact of this course on the local area.  

One can't necessarily compare the motivations to develope CB to Bandon.  Bandon, as I understand it, is in the depressed lumber sector, and the area has gotten a shot in the arm, with spill-over commerce migrating to Florence and Bandon and Coos Bay.  But, much of that is jet in jet out... most of it stays at the resort, and the resort is a private venture to capture that.

CB is of course a public - muni developed course, with motivations to boost the profile of the area.  I truly hope they keep it real in terms of accessiblity and affordability.  As I understand it, Tacoma is more of the poor sister to the Seattle area.  It has experienced a bit of rust belting of its industry closing and wandering off shore, etc.  If that is the case, I think that CB will bring in many folks in addition to give its locals a sense of something very high profile and could capture national prestige of bringing tour golf or even major golf to that area.  This all helps the commerce and economic profile, I would imaging...

The USGA has officially taken the position that it is proud to have conducted 2002 at Bethpage and is going back soon, and out to Torrey Pines next year as their recognition and support of muni-public golf.  Well.... here is another huge chance to continue that effort on a course I haven't even a scinilla of doubt is better than Torrey.

[Tim Pitner]

Dick,

Please understand I'm not "going after" anyone.  I just think people should be cautious before proclaiming Chambers the next big thing (and Garland, while I'm not about to go through old threads, I do remember some of the people, besides Dick, who were effusive in their praise hadn't played the course yet).  I don't doubt that it's great for the area.  But, that doesn't have much to do with the quality of the course or GCA.  

[Joe Hancock]

What happened in the past three hours that got Mr. Bentham the dreaded "guest" designation?

Joe

[Jordan Wall]

Dick,

Please understand I'm not "going after" anyone.  I just think people should be cautious before proclaiming Chambers the next big thing (and Garland, while I'm not about to go through old threads, I do remember some of the people, besides Dick, who were effusive in their praise hadn't played the course yet).  I don't doubt that it's great for the area.  But, that doesn't have much to do with the quality of the course or GCA.  

That doesn't mean its not a great course featuring great GCA either.  It is.  I dont have to play any other course to know that Chambers presents some awesome architecture.  It's simply awesome.

[Michael Dugger]

I am in agreement with Tim on this.  

Chambers Bay is providing a wonderful example of how eye candy can drive the masses wild.

Chambers looks awesome.  It's knarly, rugged......it is ALWAYS great to see a course where they are not afraid to leave portions "irregular."  

Irregular more closely emulates nature.....and we all claim we love "natural" golf courses.  In this respect Chambers totally kicks ass.  I love it.  It destroys Torrey Pines, and I don't need to play Torrey Pines to know such...

I love Chambers possess a drivable par 4.  I think the closing par sequence is solid, fundamental stuff. I really like the 15th and 17th.  I appreciate that they play as different golf holes, calling for different clubs.

But there isn't a single hole on Chambers Bay that can hold the 16th at BD's jock strap.  

The PUget Sound is a cool place for a golf course, to be sure, but it does not match the SOuthern Oregon course.  Let alone ancient clifftops and linksland.....

Bandon and Chambers are similar in that the "upland" holes afford excellent views of a body of water.  This pumps me up.

So yes, Jordan, I do believe Bandon Dunes is better.....still....and this is why.

Chambers does not play fast and firm yet.  Hopefully it will firm up and the ball will actually begin to run; in the fairways, on the greens, etc.  I know you can catch a big hill and get some extra roll in the fairways but the greens downright stunk.  I have faith they will quicken up, but when???

Bandon Dunes, on the other hand, has been playing firm for years...ages, really...so long the staff and DMKidd have already begun refining it, working out the kinks the CB crew is only beginning to address with their course.    

Come play Bandon Dunes, Jordan, before making ridiculous claims.  I think your days spent out there on the links are swaying yer judgement, laddie.  Everyone seems to agree Chambers Bay is way cool.  But in a best case scenario it is Whistling Straits, the Northwest Course.  

Nothing at Chambers can sniff at BD's 16th.  The 5th at Bandon is epic.  I prefer BD's 7th to CB's 7th.  I think the green presents more challenge.  If you miss right your ball rolls down a hill 25 ft.  Chambers is broader, the scale is tremendous, but it lacks "quirk."  

I prefer BD's 8th to CB's 8th.

BD's 8th is a lot like CB's 5th, actually, and a better hole in my opinion.  I would like to play to the alternate green on CB's 5th, but the cross bunker on BD's 8th is simply tremendous, I think I read somewhere Keiser asked DMKidd for a "hell" bunker" somewhere on the course and this is what he got.  I get a thrill from cracking it over this beauty.  I appreciate watching a tee ball hang over Puget Sound while driving on the 5th at CB, but the fairway is so huge I stop watching the ball.  I know it's going to be good, but I don't get the feeling it matters where it lands because the approach doesn't really favor hitting to a particular location in the first place.

Or does it?  Surely it doesn't play like the 10th at Bandon Dunes, for example.  That is where being in the proper place in the fairway REALLY DOES afford you a better approach.

But you'd have to play BD to know this.....

I look forward to Chamber's maturing.  It is only going to get better.  But unless BD goes to hell, I would never call Chamber's the superior tract.....Like Hendren, I know what I like.

10 rds?  6 BD & 4 CB

   

[Jordan Wall]

I know better than to argue with Michael about golf courses.
 

However, Chambers IS awesome and I cant wait to play the Bandon courses to compare.

p.s. Lets do a home and home next year Michael...Bandon for you, Chambers for me..
 

[Sean Leary]

I am hoping to have another crack at Chambers this weekend. Everyone seems to want to compare it to Bandon, for some reason.  A few GCAers  I played with there were all quick to anoint it better than Bandon from the get go, and I kinda think they had it in their mind that it was going to better than BD from the beginning, although I am sure they would disagree with that.  Bandon has become the whipping boy, and since no one dare suggest it is as good as Pacific, Bandon is the one to compare it to. They seem quite different to me.

I like CB a lot, but I have played it only once. I have played BD 15 plus times and I cannot compare the two with that disparity.  I need to play it again to get a better sense of the course.

Michael D, I am a bit surprised that you feel 16 at BD is THAT good of a hole.  While it is definitely better in its current form that original form,  and a sexy hole due to the location and look, I wouldn't put at the top of my list of best holes there. At CB of the top of my head, I like 6, 10, 14 and 16 as Par 4s over 16 at BD. I just don't think I have heard anyone else speak as highly of it. Some really don't like it at all, so maybe that is the genious of it, like 14 at Trails (which I love). But it general, I am not willing to say that CB is better.  At least not at this point.

[Richard Choi]

OK, this is fun.

I have played Bandon Dunes 4 times and Chambers Bay 3 times. I think it is probably safe to proclaim that I have played both course as much as anyone out there.

And my personal opinion is that Chambers Bay is superior. I think Bandon Dunes has a superior set of par 3's compared to CB, but overall, CB has stronger set of par 4's and it is probably a toss-up for par 5's (although I believe CB is just a bit stronger with its change of elevation).

For my argument sakes, let me break down each course's par 4's into three groups based on quality.

For Bandon Dunes, I would put #1, #4, #5 (my fave), and #16 in the top tier. #10, #11, and #17 would be in the middle tier and #7, #8, and #14 would be in the bottom.

For Chambers Bay, I would put #1, #6, #10, #16 at the top, #5, #7, #14 in the middle, and #2, #11, #12 at the bottom.

If you compare the top tier par 4's. I would argue that they are pretty much even. Both groups have scenary and shot values in spades.

But when you compare the middle tier 3 and especially the bottom tier 3, in my opinion, Chambers Bay holes are much stronger. There really isn't a single weak par 4 at CB while I believe the bottom tier holes at BD are very pedestrian.

So, to me, Chambers Bay is a better course. Not by a lot and I would certainly be happy to play either courses, but overall,  there is more (and consistent) drama at CB which you don't get at BD as much (you get the drama and more at PD, however).

I will put a caveat that if you factor in the conditioning of the course, BD is a far superior course. As others have mentioned, the fairways are not yet firm and greens probably will need another 2 years before they are world-class.

However, that will improve with time. If you look at just the architecture, I think CB certainly holds its own against BD.

P.S. I agree that both courses kick Torrey Pine's butt (have played there too).

[Tim Pitner]

Everyone seems to want to compare it to Bandon, for some reason.  A few GCAers  I played with there were all quick to anoint it better than Bandon from the get go, and I kinda think they had it in their mind that it was going to better than BD from the beginning, although I am sure they would disagree with that.  Bandon has become the whipping boy, and since no one dare suggest it is as good as Pacific, Bandon is the one to compare it to. They seem quite different to me.

That's what I'm talking about.  

[Michael Dugger]

Sean,

Of course I totally respect your opinion.  But most of my golfing crew aren't big fans of BT 14th and love BD 16.

I think 16th at Bandon is the coolest place on the whole property, including Pacific.  

Into the wind I seriously grip whether or not I can take the chasm and hilly gunk.

Downwind you could drive the green.  

I've thought I drove the green to find myself in that horrible pot bunker right in front of the green.

I've completely skunked myself by driving right behind that pot bunker; this is especially fun when the pin is right behind that little potty.

I've almost driven the green and bogeyed.  I've opted to lay up SHORT of the chasm when playing into a very stiff wind.

Countless options.  Jaw dropping scenery.  

What hole at Chambers affords so many options?  And plays completely different, presenting a different challenge, in opposing wind conditions?

   

[Michael Dugger]

p.s. Lets do a home and home next year Michael...Bandon for you, Chambers for me..
 

Jordan

I hope to make two trips to Bandon in the next 6-8 months.   We'll play every course, lodging will be Yurt class, we'll hit Crossings even....

Your biggest priority should be coming with me.

[Richard Choi]

What hole at Chambers affords so many options?  And plays completely different, presenting a different challenge, in opposing wind conditions?

I would say almost every hole provides you different options based on not only the wind conditions but pin positions as well.

Many greens have a definite high side and a low side that surround the greens. And with some pin positions, the only way to get a ball close to that hole is to use the slope to feed the ball down.

[Sean Leary]

What is surprising to me is that there is so much positive preconceived notion on this golf course considering it isn't one of the MFA's, but RTJ2.  I think many (including me sometimes), perhaps subconsciously, look only for the good on MFA's or ODG's courses, and only for the bad on those who we don't like as much. Human nature I think.

Tom Doak has talked about how at Sebonack, some of his loyalists (so to speak) tried to figure out what was his and what was Jack's.  He said many times that they were dead wrong.  We all have preconceived notions, and I think it clouds even the best intentioned open minds..

[Michael Dugger]

What hole at Chambers affords so many options?  And plays completely different, presenting a different challenge, in opposing wind conditions?

I would say almost every hole provides you different options based on not only the wind conditions but pin positions as well.

Many greens have a definite high side and a low side that surround the greens. And with some pin positions, the only way to get a ball close to that hole is to use the slope to feed the ball down.

RC

I think the intrigue and strategy built into the ground at CB will amplify in proportion to turf/green speeds, but at this stage in the game I don't think it is prudent to say players fear being on the wrong side of the hole in the same way they fear such at BD.

I am not finding your argument very convincing.  By the same rationale, the strategy of every hole at BD is affected by the wind too.  

Some might call it splitting hairs, but I think there is a difference.  Consider the pucker factor found at the bottleneck 5th at BD.  Consider coming up short and right at hte 7th at BD.  Think back to the advantage to be found in driving way out to the left on #10 at BD.  The green opens up, but only from that little spot over there.

I don't find CB quite that compelling yet....and I've yet to hear any CONCRETE examples where compelling drama is found.  Jordan did point out the narrow rear portion of the 16th green and how it detered him from firing at the stick.  

I think "The Narrows" affords some interesting choices, but short par 4's do that.  The par 4's at CB are long, tough, brutish......but does that necessarily make them better?  Are they more fun to play, super thought provoking.  What is there to ponder on #10 at CB, for example.  

Don't go left.  Don't go right.  Hit ball as far as possible.

That's about it.  It's a gorgeous hole, but relatively vapid strategically.

[Sean Leary]

Mike,

I agree that 16 might be the coolest place on the property. And I do love that little bunker, particularly when the pin is behind it after I have driven it just left of there. Drives me crazy.  But to me it is a bit more eye candy than a great hole, but thats just me. I think the same about 9 at CB.

Hell, many of the general population likes  Bandon more than Pacific, so to each their own.

[Michael Dugger]

Mike,

I agree that 16 might be the coolest place on the property. And I do love that little bunker, particularly when the pin is behind it after I have driven it just left of there. Drives me crazy.  But to me it is a bit more eye candy than a great hole, but thats just me. I think the same about 9 at CB.

Hell, many of the general population likes  Bandon more than Pacific, so to each their own.

Yup.  Agreed.  Great minds think alike!

Have you ever played #16 in a strong headwind?  If anything goes wrong you are not getting over the chasm.  I love that.

Being told you are not better than Bandon Dunes is no slap in the face, that's for sure.  Chambers is great, I look forward to a return visit very soon.

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