[Adam Clayman]

The 14th at Black Mesa is superior to the 7th. It's green is better positioned and angled to accentuate the options available. The 7th green is oriented at on a direct perpendicular to the line of play, limiting the spectrum of shots to be created. They both are excellent short Par 4's though.

As much as this goes against the MW Dogma, I think i'll enjoy playing my own game,(even George's) Thank You.

[CHrisB]

Matt,

As you know, it's easier to bomb it all over the yard when playing a casual round with multiple balls per hole. (That's not a knock, by the way, just reality.)

But if you were going to play a stroke play competition at Black Mesa, on how many holes would you choose to hit driver (assuming no big wind or unusually soft conditions)?

I too thought #7 was an excellent hole--it really makes you contemplate 3 or 4 different options and it isn't an automatic bomb-it-down-there hole (you wouldn't want a 30 yard shot to many of the pins on that green).

I didn't see driver as a good option on #14 the times I played it, but both times the pin was on the tiny back-left shelf, so I played to the right of the sandy scrub area leaving a spinning sand wedge in. Maybe a driver would better when the pin is up front or to the right.

The first time I played #10 I had no idea where to aim and, with a left-to-right wind, saw the ball sail up onto the right hillside. The next time, again with a strong left-to-right wind, I decided to hard-hook a 3-wood down there through the valley, which ran a long ways and left a reasonable club in. I then noticed that the hole did open up from the left side WAY down there but in the end I didn't think it would ever be worth it to hoist a driver all the way over the corner, unless I was absolutely ripping it (or if I was playing a scramble ).

By the way, if you want some more fun, try climbing the rock formation to the front-left of the 17th tee and attempt to drive the green from there. The view up there is great but at that altitude it will take some wind out of you!

[Brad Swanson]

I too think that 14 is a better hole than 7.  I think there is more work to be done/variety/fun to be had around the green of #14 compared to #7.  My drive over the green on 14 yielded an X (officially) since my partner made a tap in par, but I think I was struggling for a bogey.  The contours around that green (and trying to hit a sand shot from behind the green on the right) are challenging to say the least.

Cheers,
Brad

[George Pazin]

George:

You're most welcomed to "discuss" whatever you like -- but try to add to your credibility when you take issue with my comparisons and you have not played both of the examples given.

Geeze, I'd thought you'd get that elementary principle -- as you say -- my bad.

P.S. Try to understand that laying up is a good option at the 7th at BM when compared to half wedges that don't stop to tightly placed pin locations.

Where did I compare them? I specifically said I could NOT compare the two, I simply addressed the 7th at BM. If that isn't clear after 2 posts on the 7th, I'll say it yet again: I am only talking about the 7th, not the 10th at Riviera.

Your latter point about comparing half wedges to full shots is an interesting one, but my recollection is that the green is sloped so much toward the golfer, particularly in the rear portion, that one could run a shot in and roll it back, if so desired. That's certainly an interesting shot, I'll give Baxter big points for that, but it also implies that worrying about the lack of spin on a half wedge shouldn't be as much of an issue. If anything, I'd think someone with full spin would have to worry about spinning it back off the green, which is yet another reason to go for it, and not lay up.

It's a very nice driveable hole - I just think it lacks any reason to layup.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

Hold the fort partner -- I've played BM FOR SCORE and have hit the same position off the tee at #10 before WITH ONE BALL. Your flawed belief that my batting three tee shots would change if score were on the line is not so.

I personally believe driver off the tee at BM works for the reasons I mentioned over and over again. Laying back only adds to the distance and the demands for the approach you'll face. If a player is hitting the driver reasonably well -- there's more than enough room to land the big stick there.

No doubt -- Baxter Spann wanted to up the meter on the intimidation meter and he has worked its spell BIG TIME on those who can't hit the ball with relative distance and accuracy. For me, it's about time a long par-4 hole (which because of altitude it's not really that long) provides that type of mental challenge.

Chris, to be frank, from your own words, the architect spooked you big time when you played #10. Often the wind cuts across the hole but it can frequently change -- there's sufficient room over the left bunker complex -- you need to have a bit more courage and fire away on that line. It's no different than firing over lines at different Irish and Scottish courses of such type.

In regards to your take on #14 - I see driver as the play when the pin is cut all the way back. You lose little by going deep because the rear pin areas are uphill in overall position. With a frontal pin placement you need to be even more precise as the amount of putting surface area is smaller and is well-protected by high grass and mounding to the immediate right and the bunker complexes that close in on the other side.

Appreciate your take on #7 -- the half-wedge shot must be avoided on that hole. When the pin is cut to the far right it becomes an even more daunting hole.

In regards to #16 -- my only issue is that the width between the fairway bunker on the right and the left side needs to be widened -- I believe the pace count I had was nothing more than 15 -- and that's way too narrow to lure / entice / seduce people to pull out the driver. No doubt the more prudent play is to layback and then hit full out with the 2nd shot.

Last comment -- you mentioned #17 and it's way underrated. The heave-ho of the fairway is superb and the approach cutting across the frontal bunker is more about nerve than anything else encountered when playing BM.

In terms of how many holes would I hit driver at BM -- the following would seem right -- depending upon wind and firmness of the turf ...

#2
#3
#5
#6
#7 (if pin is cut left -- if pin is cut far right -- then lay-up for full wedge)
#9
#10
#13
#14 (if pin is cut far left go w driver - if far right then possibile lay-up)
#16 if hitting it really solid / straight
#17
#18 depends upon wind -- if helping then go with 1 iron or 3-metal.

[CHrisB]

The first time I played #10 I had no idea where to aim and, with a left-to-right wind, saw the ball sail up onto the right hillside. The next time, again with a strong left-to-right wind, I decided to hard-hook a 3-wood down there through the valley, which ran a long ways and left a reasonable club in. I then noticed that the hole did open up from the left side WAY down there but in the end I didn't think it would ever be worth it to hoist a driver all the way over the corner, unless I was absolutely ripping it (or if I was playing a scramble).

Matt,
You read these words and concluded that I was spooked?

You have to understand that I play tournament golf almost exclusively, and that when I go play casual rounds I (right or wrong) tend to view it through that lens of competition, which for me means first making sure you have an approach in, and from there weighing whether riskier options off the tee are worth taking.

All I was saying is that, especially with that wind, I would have had to start the driver well left of the bunkers and carry it a long way--doable, but in my opinion not worth the risk, especially when I can hit a hooking 3-wood and then an 8-iron. I felt that, for my game, the advantage gained by having a wedge in instead of 8-iron wasn't big enough to justify bombing it over the corner (I didn't think that the hole could only be birdied with wedge in), but perhaps a few more plays might change my mind.

I suppose if I were to play a USGA event at Black Mesa (wouldn't that be something?), I would probably only look to hit driver on #3, #5, #6, #7 depending on the pin, #9, #13, and maybe #16. On the other holes I think I could club down and still have reasonable approaches in (again, without any unusual wind or soft conditions).

But in my opinion, this is one of the great things about Black Mesa--there are several ways to play most of the holes out there, and it might take several plays to determine the best way to attack each hole. I'm looking forward to getting back out there to try again.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

From someone who has handled the 10th hole with "a few more plays" the benefits in going with driver -- for score especially -- is something a player of your caliber would need to consider.

One other thing -- you don't have to start the ball way left of the bunkers unless the left-to-right is a HURRICANE. Often times the wind can turn and be directly in your face.

The 10th gives the appearance that conservative approaches off the tee is the way to go. Wrong. Laying back works for Tiger because he can hit his long and mid irons with laser-like repetitive quality. Few others can do that -- especially to green targets that are far from big fat saucer-shaped targets.

I think you are being extremely conservative with your driver usage. If the course played extremely firm and fast -- which it can -- you'll need to be as close to the hole as possible. Going further back is often a sucker's option given the extreme contours found on many of the greens. Take the 2nd for example -- when the pin is cut to the extreme back you want to be as close to the hole as possible. Getting a 6 or 7-iron to land that softly on the deck of a patio is no small feat indeed.

Likely, you will see BM in a different light with repeat plays. That's something I have come to appreciate in the several times I have played the course.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Just understand that you appear to be more confident with the driver than most of the rest of us. I don't play the tips at BM because I'm a lousy driver of the ball compared to the rest of my game and I have more fun playing around 6700 and not having to hunt for balls all day

From those tees I think I only hit driver on #3, #5, #6, #13, and #17. I would admit it is conservative, but I have more fun that way.

Even from the tips I doubt I would hit driver on #10, I hit a fade and it just does not set up for that tee shot. I'd rather take something back in the fairway and take my chances with the second personally because that plays to my strengths.

[CHrisB]

Matt,

Looking forward to getting back out there--I'm sure like many courses you start to see places where the holes open up that maybe you missed the first couple of go-arounds.

Looking back over my two rounds there, on the holes where I did not hit driver, other than #10 (8-iron) I don't think I ever had more than a 9-iron into the green. So I'm generally fine with how I played it the first couple of times. But I concede that I might be able to squeeze a little more advantage out of the tee shots, and I'll look for those opportunities in the future. But again this is part of the what makes Black Mesa so interesting.

Agree with you about that back pin on #2--what a beauty. I hit 3-wood that kicked forward down the hill, and had a 9-iron into that back-right pin, and even with that club it was quite uncomfortable trying to get it to that small target.

I also especially liked the back-right pin on #11, the back-left pin on #14, and every pin on #1 and #7(!). Just a great set of greens all the way around.

[Adam Clayman]

Just curious, where do you guys land the ball on 9? The turn is quick and the DZ not very generous, to hit driver.

[CHrisB]

Just curious, where do you guys land the ball on 9? The turn is quick and the DZ not very generous, to hit driver.

Adam,

I don't know where Gorilla Boy hits it, but both times I played #9 the wind was strong and dead into, so I couldn't reach the right fairway bunker with driver--I just played short of it (about 160-165?) out and hit 7- or 8-iron from there.

[Which is an indication of how the wind at such a high elevation doesn't seem to affect the ball quite as much as at lower elevations. I guess it's a "thin" wind compared to something you might see on a seaide links course, where the air is heavier. Incidentally, that's a big part of the reason for all these stories of shorter club approaches, even on some of the longer holes or when clubbing down--Espanola, NM is almost 7500 feet above sea level(!).]

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

Good points on the prevailing wind at the 9th. Correction -- the elevation of BM is roughly 5,500 feet above sea level. When you head back to Santa Fe the actual elevation rise to above 7,000.

In regards to what you hit into greens -- you need to play the course when the wind does freshen a good bit. The idea that the wind in NM is softer or lighter than other areas is a big time misconception. I have played the course when you encounter no less than 20-30 mph all day -- I have hit full driver and nuked it into that kind of wind and even more when I played the par-3 8th into a significant headwind -- and I am not short by any means.

One other thing -- BM doesn't surrender through length of the tee shot alone. You have to marry the tee shot and approach to near perfect execution. That's one of the key flaws many people have in understanding BM through one round. It is VERY TOUGH to get near the pin when placed in some of the more demanding positions. So yes, you may have PW or 9-iron into a hole -- but it needs to be hit absolutely correctly to max out the benefit of the tee shot.

Adam:

Good point / re: 9th hole. If I am hitting the driver very well then I go with it -- especially when playing in a SW or S winds which often come that direction when playing the hole.

If I need to get the ball in play with a lesser club -- then a 3-metal seems to be the call -- you are right on target the width between the bunkers is quite narrow and the worst ones to avoid are the ones on the left.

Andy:

I hear what you are saying. No doubt the level of comfort each player has with their driver will vary -- sometimes from day-to-day -- other times from swing-to-swing.

I have found that short of people who are hitting their driver in military terms -- left / right / left / right -- it is far better to go with a club that you can consistently get a particular distance and with relative accuracy.

Contrary to what some believe or are erroneously told here -- there is sufficient width at Black Mesa. To the considerable credit of Baxter Spann there are a number of vexing eye-points that can intimidate the uninitiated when standing on plenty of the tees.

I like the idea that landing areas are not always 100% in complete view of the player. You then have to dig down and have confidence on the line you have chosen and execute accordingly. This is no different than what you encounter at courses across the pond in Ireland and Scotland.

By the way -- it's OK to be conservative but BM doesn't reward those who play scared.

[CHrisB]

Though Black Mesa deserves a lot of the praise it has been getting so far on this thread, no course is perfect, and I did have some mild reservations about the course.

As enthusiastic as I was about Black Mesa after my first two plays, I did wonder how playable it is for everyone. And not just mid- to high-handicappers either. I think that if a significant tournament were held there (USGA Public Links or NM State Am, let's say), then the Tournament Committee would have quite a task on their hands to avoid 6 hour rounds unless they had spotters on at least a dozen holes.

During the two windy rounds I played, there were some holes (#2 into the wind, #10 in a left-to-right wind, #13 into the wind, #16 in a right-to-left-wind) where only a slightly missed shot could easily finish in the desert. And once in the desert, it usually takes a very good shot just to get the ball back in play, and I could see guys staying in the desert for a while.

Sometimes I'll play a course and think "This reminds me why the game of golf was match play for the first 400 years!" And in light of that I am more lenient on courses that others would label as "too penal". (Personally I think that if golf were still strictly a match play game, you'd see a lot more bold and daring things in GCA.) I see no reason why two mid- to high-handicappers couldn't have a fun match at Black Mesa, but I could them struggling to post a score if the wind blows.

But the same could be said for truly great courses like Pine Valley, Prairie Dunes, Muirfield, etc.

In the end, right or wrong, this may be part of the reason that Black Mesa isn't regarded as highly as courses like Pacific Dunes--there are a few more places at Black Mesa where the player can "run out of room", especially in the wind. But I think the course more than makes up for that in other areas, especially the routing and a great set of greens, and so overall I still regard it as an excellent and enjoyable course.

[George Pazin]

I see no reason why two mid- to high-handicappers couldn't have a fun match at Black Mesa, but I could them struggling to post a score if the wind blows.

You know, I've always been kind of tough on BM in regards to HH play, but this remark makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks, Chris.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

Good points on your connection to match-play style golf courses.

If one is going to apply the standard of "playability" then how bout that same standard be applied to courses I have played that are even more penal off the tee yet draw even higher praise here and elsewhere?

For example, Dunluce / Portrush and even County Down. Get the wind going at either of these two places and the guy / gal who starts spraying the driver will be hitting out of worse situations than you could ever find at Black Mesa. Players will soon fall prey to "re-load-itis."

I can apply that same situation to a number of American courses that favor a penal style but many times people gush about them. You mentioned Prairie Dunes -- ditto the nature of such other demanding layouts like The Ocean Course.

What holds back Black Mesa is the following:

1). People who are raters view certain course locations as not being capable in producing stellar golf. New Mexico has that tag unfairly glued to it. In fact, mountain time zone golf is viewed as being "out there" and somehow disconnected from the rest of the nation. Save for the likes of Ballyneal and the select few others.

2). People who see bonafide public courses (with very, very few exceptions depending upon who designs them) as being second tier layouts.

Let me address the notion of six hour golf --minus spotters at Black Mesa. I have played Bethpage Black for well over 30 years and contested in events there. Rounds can be played at the Black -- which is no doubt even more penal and demanding than Black Mesa (but not necessarily greater) and they can do it without having an army of people watching balls and various players.

Black Mesa doesn't need wind to validate its design -- the core parts are there now. When wind does pick up it then requires a really good sense on the limitations each person has with their own games. If you respect your limitations the course will not eat you alive. That's entirely fair in my mind.

One other thing -- the "tag" that Black Mesa is especially narrow is only true in certain locations and only applicable when people decide to be a bit more aggressive with their line of play. Those playing the 16th hole -- the uphill par-5 would best opt for less distance off the tee and more accuracy. Those who try to advance further up the fairway need to realize that their desire for the "reward" does come with specific risk. In nearly all of the other situations there is sufficient room to play one's tee ball. I can't help the fact that some people would want to have fairways as wide as Kansas. However, their inability to get over the initimidation factor does not lessen the overall stature of the course -- it speaks volumes about the lack of confidence that certain people have with their own games.

As an aside -- I'd like to see the facility expand the drive zone just a tad more at the alleyway at the 16th because far too often the better players will clubdown and not take the bait that a riskier play can produce.

In sum, Black Mesa, IMHO, possesses a rich array of different holes. It can handle all types of play -- provided those at the higher end respect their limitations and play from appropriate tee locations. When people gush about Pac Dunes I know in my heart of hearts that Black Mesa is no less a course of such high caliber. For those who see it differently, so be it.


 

[Matt_Ward]

Wanted to mention that often under valued when playing Black Mesa is just how good the opening holes are -- particularly the first three.

The opening hole is often accused of being unfair because of the carry to reach the fairway. There's plenty of room for those who feel intimidated to play from an appropriate tee box. The green site there is truly well done.

Ditto the nature of the green at the 2nd hole.

The par-5 3rd is likely one of the more underrated holes on the course. Climbing gently uphill you have a slew of options to handle from the tee all the way to the putting surface.

[Matt MacIver]

Matt --

Could you elaborate on the strategies of #3?  I only played it once but it appeared to me to be a LONG, straight par 6   to a shelf left to right green with trouble all around it.  Hard it was for me but I'm curious as to how many different options there are to get your ball in the hole.  Tx.  

PS - re: #1, have you or anyone measured the carry from the various tee boxes over the hill to the beginning of the fairway?  I suspect it's 200 or so from the mid tees, which IMHO is "fair" for an opening hole, massive hill in your face notwithstanding.  Tx.  

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I think its less than that, I tried to estimate last time. More like 200 from the tips, maybe 175 from the blue tees, and 100 from the very front tees which are angled so not to go over the hill as much. Obviously the hole angles too so the further right you go the farther you have to hit it to clear the hill.

[Matt MacIver]

Andy - yes that makes sense.  I played the second- to back tees, good for my game but intimidating for my buddy who popped two on top of the hill and preceded to hate the rest of the course.  He likes courses that, as a great golfer is sometimes inclined to say, "are all there in front of him".  

I pointed out to him on numerous other shots that day "see, that would have cleared #1" but he didn't want to hear it.  He loved Paa-Ko Ridge however.  

[Andy Troeger]

Nothing wrong with loving Paa-Ko in my opinion, I would agree with that one as well.

Most of the locals I know think Paa-Ko is the best course in the state. Both courses are very good.

[Matt MacIver]

I too liked Paa-Ko but didn't see as much strategy as I did at BM -- note I only played each course once.  And (in a vast over-generalization) I thought the par 5s at Paa-Ko were pretty monotonous -- way too much risk to ever try going for a green in two, so just layup to 100 and wedge it on.  

Maybe I would fell different with more rounds, but I didn't get that feeling at BM.  

Loved the first par 3 and #17 from the tips (top!) at Paa-Ko though!

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Please tell me how Black Mesa comes up short to Paa-Ko. I'd be happy to hear any detailed comments whether it be the overall land, routing and specific shot values of the par-3, par-4 and par-5 holes.

Matt M:

The 1st hole plays roughly 390 yards from the dead back tips. The 150-yard marker is roughly 10 yards or so from the carry point -- so figure the carry is in excess of 200 yards. The broader issues is who should be playing from the tips to start with. If you take Joe Hacker and place him there then likely he will start with the bitching and moaning about it being unfair.

If played from the appropriate tee box in line with one's playing ability the carry is certainly fair.

In regards to the 3rd hole -- the key is deciding after your tee shot how aggressive you want to be with the 2nd. The bunker complex on the left does come into play and strong players can get there in two blows -- when the wind cooperates.

The pitch in the land becomes more noticeable as you ascend the hill towards the green. This is where the tee shot becomes critical. Should you miss the fairway -- to either side -- you have to get sufficient distance with the 2nd shot to be within range for a reasonable 3rd shot into the target.

The green is quite narrow -- especially on the far right and if you pitch too strongly you don't want to finish up behind the green -- the slope from that angle is rather severe.

What makes the 3rd so appealing to me is that it really makes the strong player have to decide on what they want to do and it doesn't concede birdie so readily for that level of player while still holding out hope for the weaker player who likely will need to hit an approach from say 125 yards or thereabouts. Few par-5's I have played keep the better player in such tight reins while still permitting the higher handicap player (within reason I shall add) in the mix.

[Matt MacIver]

MW -

I didn't play #3 particularily well so I'm sure I missed some things.  I did not miss the difficulty in the back right pin position and severe slope though - I "enjoyed" quite a few shots back there.  

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I think Paa-Ko and Black Mesa are about equals in my mind. We've had that discussion before in other threads, and as I am headed out of town in 20 mins I can't rehash it now. I'm just telling you that if you came to Albuquerque and took a poll of local golfers my guess would be that Paa-Ko would win.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Don't how one can say that some sort of "local poll" would automatically favor Paa-Ko over Black Mesa. Both are fun courses but the sheer complexity and routing and varying degrees of intensity all point the way to BM from the people I have ever spoken to about the golf course who have also played it.

Be curious to see your take based on the aspects I outlined for course-to-course discussion.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()